Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Ike]

Why your mind always looks for sexual or sadistic analogies?

Because they are the only ones that you react upon. I already tried with classic example like : group of people A, trying to depart from a country B, and Union C approves it. Then later a group of people D, trying to depart from a country E, but group C disapproves that. Yet you see no problems with that, so I was forced to pull some more basic examples.

Regardless, do you want to say that there is possibility that these unhappy Ukrainians are able to go into the streets and protest, just because they are unhappy with current situation? Are they able to protest without money from external sources?

They are able, but they wouldn't be protesting against their own country, government and happiness. Ukraine was not the case like Germany 1933. where you were voting for or against something that would have vast social consequences. It was just monetary policy and economic affiliations in question, and that is not something you risk your life for, especially when the economic situation is quite clear the improvement was not to be seen so fast in any scenario.

Did they offer lollipop to you, and created these images?

Yes, in fact they did. Many of my countrymen were offered lollipops and they fell for it. Now when the violation is over, and they are firmly tied in the basement they are starting to realize what they've got themselves into.

No, I don't have them although I'm watching news every day.

From what I've seen you write here, one would not expect you to have any empathy with the victims.

Seems like one needs to have susceptible mind for this type of images to take hold. It might be very disturbing by itself, and it could be noticed in every second of your posts. For all the people on Eupedia it is just you who comes up with these disturbing sexual imagery at every occasion. Do you think it means something? Do you see the pattern?

The only pattern I see is that I waste my time trying to simplify you a complex international problem into a classic criminal act between two people, that would be more simple for you to visualize, but you yet somehow always end up on some weird part of the street. It's either that you are somehow obsessed with sexual stuff, or you're just evading the subject...

Wasn't it you who blames CIA for every unrest and revolution of last decades? If you didn't mean that you shouldn't have written that. Otherwise we can perceive this logic as very childish indeed.

I've given you an exact names of the persons who received money from CIA to go to Ukraine to organize groups that would overthrow the government, and you're giving me a French revolution and a hint that it wasn't started by the CIA.
And now it bothers you I said that you act like readers of your posts have no brains....

Of course not, I'm just lamenting your vision impediment to see CIA everywhere.

You don't see them is because you're closing your eyes on purpose - because it feels nice to live a happy and wealthy life upon misery of other nations.

That is surprising, because every article I find there could have been written by you, or you could have been an adviser to the authors.

Guess there are more people out there who are not willing to compromise their moral integrity just for the sake of their bank account. Thanx for recommendation, I will surely put it on Speed Dial and read some of that stuff...

With the statement or the sarcasm, which is a reversed logic?

Just with the statement. Deadly serious. No sarcasm sadly

 

[Yetos]

no matter we discuss here, the cube has fallen, open war is upon Europe once again.

 

[LeBrok]

no matter we discuss here, the cube has fallen, open war is upon Europe once again.

It is not going to happen, if only for one fact that nobody is in clean position to win the war. Russia can't win against NATO. NATO has 5 times bigger population and 10 times bigger economy. Likewise, NATO can't win, because Russia could use atom bombs in desperation. Most importantly, at the moment both sides are not in danger of losing anything to be forced to go into full blown war. At this time all the involved sides will try to find viable way out from this conflict, before everyone involved falls in deepest recession since WW2.
There is no other way of solving Ukrainian dilemma but to sacrifice parts of Ukraine to Russia or giving them full independence. Russian troops are already there inside Ukraine in rebel areas and more waiting to come in if there is a need. Ukrainians are not in position to beat Russians. In this case Ukrainians need to forget these Russian speaking regions, give it to Russia, and save the rest of Ukraine, before the cancer spreads even further. Ukraine will be only somewhat smaller territorially but on a bright side it will be more coherent ethnically and ideologically.
Actually, getting rid of rebel controlled parts, might be the best thing that could happen to Ukraine, in context of their future goals of political and economic reforms and consolidation with EU.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Most easy way to solve the situation from Ukraine,wait.
Russians will revolt soon and take down Putin from the leadership.
The Pan-Slavist current is very strong in Russia at the moment and I think most Russians dislike to see Putin getting allied even to Cecens,to fight against Ukrainian brothers.
Add to that the rising prices at food and worsening living conditions for average Russian.

 

[LeBrok]

Most easy way to solve the situation from Ukraine,wait.
Russians will revolt soon and take down Putin from the leadership.
The Pan-Slavist current is very strong in Russia at the moment and I think most Russians dislike to see Putin getting allied even to Cecens,to fight against Ukrainian brothers.
Add to that the rising prices at food and worsening living conditions for average Russian.

Eventually it will happen, Putin will be out of office for causing big economic crises in Russia. It will take a long time though. He is very popular at the moment, protector of Russians (almost a hero status) with very strong presidential powers, not to say dictatorial. It will take a lot and a long time to get rid of him. If he won't go easily, we might have a revolution one day in Moscow, like in Kiev this year.

 

[LeBrok]

Western sphere is not all the same thing. One can be in western sphere and still be rather neutral like Austria, Switzerland, Sweden and Finland. Neutrality is not threatened by Russia, contrary to what fear-mongers try to suggest.
But I expect ethnic tensions in Baltic countries, possibly also trouble in Finland, which will be used as excuse to end neutrality. The final target is China.

Who is targeting China?

 

[LeBrok]

Putin didn't play his cards right. He gained a bit of territory but lost influence over whole Ukraine "forever". Probably, his last wish of keeping rebel held territory autonomous and not independent, is directed to salvaging his voice in Ukraine's future politics. At this point Ukraine should cut the rebel held territory out of Ukraine, for long term strategic reasons. The move could be compared to sacrifice of important figures in chess game, always a surprise to spectators, for a long term goal of winning the game. The rift between east and west Ukraine is irreconcilable, making Ukraine bipolar in nature and naturally tearing the country apart. In this regard any effort of giving it some unity and common goals is a positive mover.
Getting rid of some Russian minorities will give Ukraine more ethnic coherence and political unity. It will be much easier to steer this ship towards whatever future goals might be, joining EU or NATO.

 

[arvistro]

Give Sudetenland to Hitler and you will have less Germans on your territory, more ethnic coherence and political unity!

 

[LeBrok]

Give Sudetenland to Hitler and you will have less Germans on your territory, more ethnic coherence and political unity!

Good point. I'm not saying it is a right thing to do according to any international or national standards. In this case, regarding proportionally small size and already in Russian hands it is the smart thing to do. These lands can be disputed by Ukraine in the future and need to be regulated by international/European court or future referendum. It might not be lost forever anyway.

It is more like giving Hitler Sudetenland when he already annexed it.

 

[Christiaan]

Of course that's the dilemma for Europe, is this another precedent for another annexation of Russia? In which case they continue this expansive behaviour, which destabilizes more countries in the Russian orbit.

 

[LeBrok]

Of course that's the dilemma for Europe, is this another precedent for another annexation of Russia? In which case they continue this expansive behaviour, which destabilizes more countries in the Russian orbit.

Indeed, steps should be taken quickly to protect Baltic countries and rest of Ukraine containing Russian minorities against Putin orchestrating uprisings and invasion there.

 

[Yetos]

Putin didn't play his cards right. He gained a bit of territory but lost influence over whole Ukraine "forever". Probably, his last wish of keeping rebel held territory autonomous and not independent, is directed to salvaging his voice in Ukraine's future politics. At this point Ukraine should cut the rebel held territory out of Ukraine, for long term strategic reasons. The move could be compared to sacrifice of important figures in chess game, always a surprise to spectators, for a long term goal of winning the game. The rift between east and west Ukraine is irreconcilable, making Ukraine bipolar in nature and naturally tearing the country apart. In this regard any effort of giving it some unity and common goals is a positive mover.
Getting rid of some Russian minorities will give Ukraine more ethnic coherence and political unity. It will be much easier to steer this ship towards whatever future goals might be, joining EU or NATO.

Of course that's the dilemma for Europe, is this another precedent for another annexation of Russia? In which case they continue this expansive behaviour, which destabilizes more countries in the Russian orbit.

I think Putin is smarter, he does not cut off, he wants to create a new Hyperdneisteria/Moldova,
Moldova once was more rich and more solid, it was the 'mediterean of ex-Ussr', wine producing and warmer climate etc,
today has 2 armies, poverty to the limit or 'under the line' and products go where?
Romania on the other hand, can not support, raise the economy of Moldova,
so in Moldova, while away and autonomous, still some 'love' Ussr, and some 'need' USSR.
i think Putin's Dream now is to make Ukraine Autonomous, but with 2 armies like Moldova.

the peacefully 'cut/division' should be done earlier, by the election time, with referendum, before Russians or volunteers enter, referendum, is the stronger papper in diplomacy,
Today we experience a war there,

the more the time pass, the more victims and intollerance, the more to 'Moldova' we go.
and if Ukraine turn to a Moldova/Hyperdneisteria it will be a failure by all 3, EU USA RUSSIA.

 

[Dagne]

"There is no other way of solving Ukrainian dilemma but to sacrifice parts of Ukraine to Russia or giving them full independence. Russian troops are already there inside Ukraine in rebel areas and more waiting to come in if there is a need. Ukrainians are not in position to beat Russians. In this case Ukrainians need to forget these Russian speaking regions, give it to Russia, and save the rest of Ukraine, before the cancer spreads even further. Ukraine will be only somewhat smaller territorially but on a bright side it will be more coherent ethnically and ideologically.
Actually, getting rid of rebel controlled parts, might be the best thing that could happen to Ukraine, in context of their future goals of political and economic reforms and consolidation with EU. "

The argument is very logical, but it is exactly how the Western Nations thought before WWII when Hitler took a part of Poland, to make a "corridor" between German lands near the Baltic Sea. The danger is that Eastern Ukraine is way too little for Putin to create his vision of Russia World. See the ambition drawn on a bar of chocolate.

It is all a matter of joke, but potential Russian terriory includes Sweden and Norway, and also Alaska. Basically imperial Russia likes enlarge its borders untill it is stopped by the sea.

 

[ElHorsto]

Russia is busy defending it's borders. It has no resources to make conquests, just look at the military investments. The Sudetenland analogy is superficial pseudo-intellectual nonsense. Hitler was vegetarian, so Ghandi was like Hitler probably. The only ultimate defense Russia can do in worst case is to create mushrooms in Europe. We have a situation like before WW1, not WW2, because Europe is led again by sleepwalkers (The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 ). J.C.Juncker himself declared last year that the situation is like 1913. Europe should stop listening to particular paranoia of particular countries. These fears and provocations will become self-fulfilling profecies.

 

[Vedun]

I think this picture tells you everything, why is US so concerned about the status of Russia...

Besides several people still act like there are no other super power states at all. China, Russia, India are those new players.
USA are still a super power state in technology and military (they are the World's police man), but things have started to change. There happened another polarization of the World; between Russia+China and US (with its satellite states which are under EU). The petroldollar has started to fail, and US are feverishly seeking their world's dominance in Russia.
World will change in next 30-35 years...

But who is behind the Ukraine crisis (besides of Russia), or who has interests in Ukraine can be easily seen from those few links...

this is from January 2013
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/uk-shale-ukraine-idUKBRE90N11S20130124

http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system/

http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2014/03/israels-role-in-ukraine.html

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a9c0db18-4554-11e3-b98b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3C9BIpgTC

http://rt.com/op-edge/183956-gmo-ukraine-monsanto-imf/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/fascis...abia-sending-takfiri-fighters-to-kiev/5380715

http://image.ua/ukraine_and_worldeng/ukraine-saudi-arabia-a-new-round-of-relations/?lang=en

Note, that the biggest Warmongers come from the rows of oil companies, banks, rich oil-sheiks have Trillions of dollars assets on American (Jewish) banking accounts... Therefore is NATO obligated to roll into a country their masters demand to be invaded and "(de)established". Imagine if those rich Lords will close all their banking accounts... USA would go bankrupt in few hours.

And what WILL happen in next few decades (in 2040-2050) will be a lack of oil and gas in the Middle east. Those rich countries export more than 90% of oil and import more than 90% of food from EU or elsewhere... They are literally swimming in the money, burning it for fun. But not for long...(that's why they are very interested into Ukraine and Russia - this will be their "final" destination after a great WW). There will be more and more revolts in the Middle east, they will literally export fundamentalists from Stone ages, from these countries...

All wars in the Middle east are only a fog screen... to destroy their "enemy no.1 - Magog (the word "Mongol" was perverted in Byzantium from the Greek word Mogol or Mogul, "great one" (Mega)...as was always the name of Scythian people (current Russians, Ukrainians)...

'funny' thing, when I've mentioned to few people in 2010, that war in Ukraine will happen... they laughed.
The next 'War' will be in Caucasus and Belorussia.

 

[ElHorsto]

"There is no other way of solving Ukrainian dilemma but to sacrifice parts of Ukraine to Russia or giving them full independence. Russian troops are already there inside Ukraine in rebel areas and more waiting to come in if there is a need. Ukrainians are not in position to beat Russians. In this case Ukrainians need to forget these Russian speaking regions, give it to Russia, and save the rest of Ukraine, before the cancer spreads even further. Ukraine will be only somewhat smaller territorially but on a bright side it will be more coherent ethnically and ideologically.
Actually, getting rid of rebel controlled parts, might be the best thing that could happen to Ukraine, in context of their future goals of political and economic reforms and consolidation with EU. "

The argument is very logical, but it is exactly how the Western Nations thought before WWII when Hitler took a part of Poland, to make a "corridor" between German lands near the Baltic Sea. The danger is that Eastern Ukraine is way too little for Putin to create his vision of Russia World. See the ambition drawn on a bar of chocolate.

It is all a matter of joke, but potential Russian terriory includes Sweden and Norway, and also Alaska. Basically imperial Russia likes enlarge its borders untill it is stopped by the sea.

No offense Dagne, I know that social media "evidence" became popular recently, but I still have doubts. Somebody placed pieces of chocolate behind it to show that it's really chocolate, and somebody placed "matrioshka's" behind it to show that it's russian. And finally the link is from Latvia. But who knows, maybe it's russian-style advertisement. Perhaps you can find a link to the russian company which produces these bars? Thank you.

 

[Yetos]

I think this picture tells you everything, why is US so concerned about the status of Russia...

Besides several people still act like there are no other super power states at all. China, Russia, India are those new players.
USA are still a super power state in technology and military (they are the World's police man), but things have started to change. There happened another polarization of the World; between Russia+China and US (with its satellite states which are under EU). The petroldollar has started to fail, and US are feverishly seeking their world's dominance in Russia.
World will change in next 30-35 years...

But who is behind the Ukraine crisis (besides of Russia), or who has interests in Ukraine can be easily seen from those few links...

this is from January 2013
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/uk-shale-ukraine-idUKBRE90N11S20130124

http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system/

http://the-tap.blogspot.com/2014/03/israels-role-in-ukraine.html

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a9c0db18-4554-11e3-b98b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3C9BIpgTC

http://rt.com/op-edge/183956-gmo-ukraine-monsanto-imf/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/fascis...abia-sending-takfiri-fighters-to-kiev/5380715

http://image.ua/ukraine_and_worldeng/ukraine-saudi-arabia-a-new-round-of-relations/?lang=en

Note, that the biggest Warmongers come from the rows of oil companies, banks, rich oil-sheiks have Trillions of dollars assets on American (Jewish) accounts... Therefore is NATO obligated to roll into a country their masters demand to be invaded and "(de)established". Imagine if those rich Lords will close all their banking accounts... USA would go bankrupt in few hours.

And what WILL happen in next few decades (in 2040-2050) will be a lack of oil and gas in the Middle east. Those rich countries export more than 90% of oil and import more than 90% of food from EU or elsewhere... They are literally swimming in the money, burning it for fun. But not for long...(that's why they are very interested into Ukraine and Russia - this will be their "final" destination after a great WW). There will be more and more revolts in the Middle east, they will literally export fundamentalists from Stone ages, from these countries...

All wars in the Middle east are only a fog screen... to destroy their "enemy no.1 - Magog (the word "Mongol" was perverted in Byzantium from the Greek word Mogol or Mogul, "great one" (Mega)...as was always the name of Scythian people (current Russians, Ukrainians)...

'funny' thing, when I've mentioned to few people in 2010, that war in Ukraine will happen... they laughed.
The next 'War' will be in Caucasus and Belorussia.

the theory of oil ending oil is old,

the 'new' deposits in meditterenean are about to be drilled,
from Israel/Gaza to Croatia the deposits are consider tremendous,
I heard even about 400 years the needs of EU as today,
North sea deposits might be nothing infront that of Leviathan and south of Attaleia,
we may even see industrial map of Europe change and goind south, except if coal returns or more nuclear use to fullfill the demand,

the Ukraine case seems to be like the chess move of Syria,
remember Putin deny any invasion in Syrria, and protect Hassant,
that costs to USA reputation, guns, etc etc until the run out of control of IS.
so USA respond by pushing West Ukrainians to a fast revolt, next to Russia, to show who is in 'command'
but the revolt took days, and gave enough time to Russians to regatherer and plan the new policy,
so West lost the blietzkrieg tactic spending time, while with fast referendums and elections could easily be strategical winner, with small loses or (although little chances in Crimea) none.

Crimea is like the Pearl Harbor, the Annapolis, the Pensacolla the EARL NJ, to USA,

 

[Ike]

the 'new' deposits in meditterenean are about to be drilled,
from Israel/Gaza to Croatia the deposits are consider tremendous,

Any more info on that?

 

[Yetos]

not yet, only that after October the first competions of offering will start,

needs stability, diplomacy and a 'police man' to start drill,
Israel is under 'discuss' as always with Gaza to take the head,
Cyprus is under Discuss with Turkey again,
Turkey the known political problem, election and corruptions, one day throw stones to Erdogan, next day make him president!!!!
Greek discus with Troika (ECB IMF etc)
Italy waits, still do not know what,
Albania is strange cause goverment signed but the primary court denies,
Montenegro and Croatia still did not make scientific searches, and aproaches,

so we are awaiting the 'under the table' bargains,
as for Greece already maped the quantities and places for 3 major field and an international competion is running, but still need a stronger 'police man' which except Italy I think no one else can play the roll,

 

[Dagne]

El Horsto, it is true, I have no evidence regarding the authenticity of the chocolate. However, the question is about the political atmosphere in Russia. Putin (who is supported by 85% of the population or so) wants to create “Russian Word” which extends beyond the current borders of Russia. It seems that any means are good for the purpose. Putin himself mentioned earlier this week that his army can take over Kiev in a matter of two weeks. Whereas Zhirinovsky (MP, leader of the second popular party in theRussian Parliament) repeatedly voices out that the Baltic states and Poland deserves to be occupied or destroyed. In April 2013 he said that the Baltic states deserve to be occupied and they can be destroyed in a matter of 5 minutes (the time needed for missiles from Russia to reach Baltic states - he explicitly mentioned that). In August of 2014 he again said that the Baltic states and Poland are doomed, they will be erased from the earth’s surface.These statements are authentic. In any other country, apart, perhaps, from the North Korea, such public statements would be deemed as warmongering and persecuted by law, but not in Russia…