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Sicilians: Which groups overlap? (Multiple choice version)

Multiple choice.. pick all that fit.

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For example, the prior Oenotrians I believe brought much Anatolia J2a to the general southern region of Italy; they may have brought some E3b as well; who knows, maybe even E-V13. The succeeding Achaean and minor Ionian Greeks settlements would have certainly brought over more/most E-V13 and some even more types of Balkanic and middle eastern J2 but all the "specific ness" of the subclades starts to take place at minimal levels. It seems they brought no R1a or I2a; because it was apparently not among the colonizers.
 
adamo said:
It seems they brought no R1a or I2a; because it was apparently not among the colonizers.
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I am R1a on my Sicilian side. I think it is likely that it came over in small amounts (Sicily has the most R1a in all of Italy), but I think it shows that the parts of Greece that colonized there were likely E1b1b heavy, since within Sicily they often use E1b1b (especially specific subclades) to denote our Greek ancestry. It is very high in the east of the island, and in Enna.
 
They are typical of Meditaranian people, but with less Indo-Europeean influence than the North Italians and Greeks.
 
MtDNA said:
They are typical of Meditaranian people, but with less Indo-Europeean influence than the North Italians and Greeks.
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I have been told that this is dogma on anthrofora sites like The Apricity, but it is total bunk.

Ed.It is first of all based on some bizarre notion that island Greeks, and Pontic Greeks, and rather recently expelled Greeks from the Aegean shores of Asia Minor, are not as "Greek" as mainland ones. Just who made that decision? Next time I'm invited to an event at the Greek Orthodox Church and Community Center, I'll be sure to inform them that half of them are not Greek.

In addition, it is, to my knowledge, totally based on 23andme components that are themselves highly problematic for people in the Balkans including the Greeks. I would suggest taking a look at the reference populations used by 23andme. The reference population for the Balkans includes the Maltese, so any "southern" or "Mediterranean" or "West Asian" percentages for that matter would be in addition to what is already present in the reference sample. The results on 23andme are fun, but not for the kind of analysis which we do on this site.

I would suggest taking a look at the Dodecad runs instead, which do a much better job of teasing out relationships between western and southern Europeans, in my opinion, even versus more recent Eurogenes runs which divide Europe basically east/west, and which thus obscure some of these relationships. In Dodecad, the only Greek population is the Dodecad volunteer one, which cannot be held to be representative as we don't know if they were all or mainly from the mainland. Other analyses use a sample from Thessaly, I believe, which is in far northern Greece. When samples are taken from the islands and different communities in Greece and properly analyzed, then we can look at the situation.

In addition, you may have missed it, and I would bet a large sum that the people on anthrofora have either missed it or don't understand it, but the "Indo-Europeans" were apparently a highly mixed population with large amounts of EEF. Slavic or Northern European input does not equate to "Indo-European" precisely. It's a lot more complicated than that.

I've said all I have to say on the subject and won't be responding further.

I also think that someone should come up with some sort of vaccine inoculating people against an obsession with Sicilians. It's like a disease on anthrofora. Sicilians are ascinating people, no doubt, but this "obsession" is obviously the product of some bizarre agenda of the most unsavory kind.
 
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Angela said:
In addition, it is, to my knowledge, totally based on 23andme components that are themselves highly problematic for people in the Balkans including the Greeks. I would suggest taking a look at the reference populations used by 23andme. The reference population for the Balkans includes the Maltese, so any "southern" or "Mediterranean" or "West Asian" percentages for that matter would be in addition to what is already present in the reference sample. The results on 23andme are fun, but not for the kind of analysis which we do on this site.
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This can't be, I think they listed it there on 23andme by mistake.

This is because:

1) Maltese score nearly all "Italian" with some Middle Eastern and North African elements aside from that, and they score identically to many southern Italians on 23andme. I share with many of them and none score anything significantly Balkan, which they would if they were in the reference population.

2) Mainland Greeks are the ones scoring more "Balkan", and Serbs, Albanians, etc. score that category almost in entirety. If Maltese were skewing it toward West Asian, as they would, Serbs would not be scoring more Balkan than Greeks do. Island Greeks on the other hand, at least those from Crete and Dodecanese, usually score "Italian" as their top, not "Balkan".

3) Maltese are genetically the closest to people from western Sicily, yet it is often people from eastern and central Sicily, as well as Apulia, who score the most "Balkan", of all the southern Italians I share with.

If any of this is doubtful to you I can show you screenshots of some results. Also, I have the GEDmatch ID numbers of many, many people who have shared them with me, and as such I have access to more information about these regions than just the Dodecad and Eurogenes averages. You do see that mainland Greeks have a significant "northern" shift from southern Italians, either due to higher Indo-European or due to Slavic influx in the Middle Ages (which is documented), and island Greeks are close to southern Italians. Anatolian Greeks there is not enough data about to conclusively say, but Dienekes, who runs Dodecad, was the one to say Pontic Greeks are close to NE Anatolian/Caucasus people and not to mainstream Greeks.
 
Hauteville said:
Maltese are genetically similar to sicilians but not identical,look at Lazaridis et al. study (samples from east and west of the island) and you can notice that they have much more nw african admixture.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rican-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013
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Lazaridis also shows that Ashkenazim, Maltese and Sicilians plot next to each other in the gap between Europe and the near east, although I reckon Ashkenazim would share greater similarities with Cretans and Aegean islanders than with Maltese and Sicilians.
 
Unfortunately the only greek samples are from the north of country as far as i know.
 
Pax Augusta said:
Why? It would be like in Italy to use samples from the north of country, Lombardy, only.
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Thessaloniki has people living there from all over Greece, as well as people mixed with Anatolian Greek (many of them settled there). But either way if you took the sample from other regions on the mainland it wouldn't come out that different to Thessaloniki.
 
oreo_cookie said:
Thessaloniki has people living there from all over Greece, as well as people mixed with Anatolian Greek (many of them settled there). But either way if you took the sample from other regions on the mainland it wouldn't come out that different to Thessaloniki.
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Same in Lombardy, people living from all over Italy.
 
Pax Augusta said:
Same in the Lombardy, people living from all over Italy.
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Mainland Greeks do not differ all that much by region, going by results from Dodecad and Eurogenes. The only exception are some areas have somewhat more Slavic input than others.
My gripe was using the Dodecanese and Crete to represent all islands in that one study, when other islanders come closer to the mainland averages.
 
Surely the Thessaloniki samples are from the ethnic people of the city and not with the anatolian settlers because as far as i know the anatolian settlers cluster almost with armenians.
 
However i am sicilian from Sicily and i founded this thread very interesting i update the thread with other pics.
Some sicilian politicians,i will update with other pics.

 
Hauteville said:
Surely the Thessaloniki samples are from the ethnic people of the city and not with the anatolian settlers because as far as i know the anatolian settlers cluster almost with armenians.
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You are thinking of Pontic Greeks, but the Greeks who lived on the western coast of Turkey do not plot that way (since they never lived near Pontus or the Caucasus). Greeks from western Anatolia should be more similar to standard Greeks, since there was a larger Greek presence there.

Pontians, on the other hand are just Hellenized Caucasus people (hence them being called "Caucasus Greeks").
 
Yes i was talking about pontians indeed.
 
Here are some other photos:

1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg
 
Hauteville said:
Yes i was talking about pontians indeed.
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I can send you 23andme results from different islands and Anatolian Greeks. Sicilians seem to be such that depending on how much Northern admixture they have, they could plot with Ionian and North Aegean islanders (Lesbos, Chios, Lefkada, Corfu) and southern Peloponnese, OR if they have less continental admixture, with Cretans (the Paschou study said there was "partial overlap" between Sicily and Crete).

Anything north of the Peloponnese in Greece would have too much Slavic admixture to cluster with Sicilians, though. Which makes sense historically. Even if you found a Sicilian with significant Lombard or Norman, they wouldn't plot near people mixed with Slavic, since that pulls them east. On the other hand I plot near some mainland Greeks because I have both Sicilian and Polish in me.
 
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