Proto-Indo-Europeans were the Highlanders, who lived near the sea.

[Goga]

You would be more accurate if you said 5000 BC, actually. In my opinion, Proto-Semitic is older than PIE (the vocabulary is consistent with that of a Neolithic language), and Afroasiatic as a whole (of which Proto-Semitic is but one branch) is substantially older than Proto-Indo-European. In my opinion, the Halaf culture is a very good candidate for the Proto-Semitic homeland, it has all the items reconstructable for Proto-Semitic (including snow and bears):

Dude, are you serious? Semitic is an AFRO-Asiatic language group and was evolved either in Eastern Africa or somewhere around the Red Sea. There is a link between Semitic and (North) African langauges. Halaf culture was VERY different to the Semitic desert cultures. Bears live also in the southern parts of Levant and they have also snow in that area.

 

[Goga]

(I'll talk more about the iranic languages later)

You don't have to do it. Because you don't know anything about it. It's a well known FACT that Indo-Iranian (, like Kurdish, Avestan, Sanskrit, old Persian and many modern Indic languages) had an ergative construction.

"The origin of the Indo-Iranian ergative construction."

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...&uid=2129&uid=62&uid=70&uid=3738736&uid=41302


" Ergativity in Indo-Aryan "

http://ling.uni-konstanz.de/pages/home/butt/main/papers/ia-erg.html

 

[Goga]

From "Subject, Voice and Ergativity" by N Bennett

 

[Goga]

Hope you are not saying the Kurds have a semetic language ..............they do not have

Kurdish is may be nowadays the purest Iranic language which is still very close to the ancient Avestan, language of the ancient Zoroastrians, the Medes etc. Avestan was almost identical to Sanskrit (proto-Indic). That means that Kurdish language is still very close to proto-Iranic language!

 

[Sile]

where did you get this?
once upon a time, the Aral Sea oveflew into the Caspian Sea, but that was 8-1000 years or longer ago
and it didn't need to rise 250 meter to overflow, maybe 25 meter

and you're right, between Caspain and Arals Sea, it is desert

ancient greek historians state the greeks sailed via the black sea, caspian sea and into the aral sea for trading with the pamirians

besides 2012 archeological studies show 200-250 high sea levels in the Aral sea.........the oxus river must have been flowing very fast

 

[Sile]

Kurdish is may be nowadays the purest Iranic language which is still very close to the ancient Avestan, language of the ancient Zoroastrians, the Medes etc. Avestan was almost identical to Sanskrit (proto-Indic). That means that Kurdish language is still very close to proto-Iranic language!

zorastrians started from teh proto-bactrians. he was born there, he moved along the south side of the caspian sea via Gilam and entered into lands of Van

 

[Goga]

zorastrians started from teh proto-bactrians. he was born there, he moved along the south side of the caspian sea via Gilam and entered into lands of Van

No, according to the Kurds and ancient Persian writers Zoroaster belonged to a Magi tribe of the Medes. He was born in Rojhelat (Iranian Kurdistan, near Lake Urmia). Zoroaster was outcasted by his own people and he went to Bactria.

 

[Alan]

Why would Andronovo/Uralic R1a or ancient Maikop vases have such a fascination with Asiatic Lion's.
Even going into detail showing their ears and extended mane under their belly? Did the Hittite[first group to leave PIE homeland]wine drinking people also have this fascination or word for Lion?

At least among Kurds I can tell, there are 4 animals who have a high role.

The Eagle, the Lion, the Peacock and to lesser extend the Snake.

 

[Robert6]

Kurdish has an ergative contruction and is one of the purest and most preserved Iranic languages. Kurds are Iranoid people and belong to a West Asia, West Iranic race. Before the modern Kurdish race, the Sumerians were the original inhabitants of Kurdstan and NOT the Semites, homeland of the Semites is Arabia and Southern Levant.

Kurds belong to Caspian Race together with Azeris and Turkmens

 

[Robert6]

as for Andronovo : they were R1a people as proved by aDNA

From Krasnoyarsk kray they were R1a, and in Krasnoyarsk kray there were R1a before the Andronovo culture, so the R1a were locals there.
As I know West Andronovo people mostly belonged to "Indo-Mediteranean"(mostly Dolichocephalic) race
South-Eastern Andronovo were mostly belonged to "Pamirid" race(mostly Mesocephalic and Brachicephalic)
and I don't know about far eastern Andronovo people who tested R1a.

 

[Goga]

Kurds belong to Caspian Race together with Azeris and Turkmens

Kurds are Iranoid people and native speakers of West Iranic language, same as Kurdish ancestors the Medes. Capian race is part of a greater Iranoid race. Ancient Medes lived also in the same area as the modern day Azeri folks and Turkmenistan, land of the Turkmen, is located in the same area as the ancient BMAC, the same place where Oxus civilisation flourished. Those folks have some kind of Iranic roots (Azerbaijan means land of fire) but they were Turkified and nowadays they speak Turanic languages. The closest people to Kurds are Iranic speaking Talysh people, Gilaki folks and Western Persians, of course who live South of the Caspian Sea. Talysh people, Gilaki, Western Persians, Kurds are all West Iranic people and belong to an Iranoid race.

 

[Taranis]

Dude, are you serious? Semitic is an AFRO-Asiatic language group and was evolved either in Eastern Africa or somewhere around the Red Sea. There is a link between Semitic and (North) African langauges.

You should be aware that it is called "Afro-Asiatic" languages for a reason, because Semitic languages were (with the sole exception of Ethiosemitic) located geographically in Western Asia. The idea of a Proto-Afroasiatic homeland in East Africa is ridiculous if you consider that three branches of Afroasiatic (Berber, Egyptian and Semitic) border on the Mediterranean. The Chadic peoples must have originated in the vicinity of the Mediterranean, originally, since they're close with the Berber languages: there's also a strong genetic evidence for this, as you may know the Chadic (and adjacent non-Afroasiatic) peoples have high percentages of Y-haplogroup R1b, more specifically the subclade V88, which appears to be tied with the expansion of the Afroasiatic languages:

Halaf culture was VERY different to the Semitic desert cultures. Bears live also in the southern parts of Levant and they have also snow in that area.

You really should stop thinking of the Semites as a "desert people". In addition to 'snow' and 'bear', you also have a common word for 'pig' (Akkadian "ḫuzīru", Arabic "khanzīr", Aramaic "ḥzīrā", Hebrew ḥazir"), which the Halaf culture actually possessed.

 

[Robert6]

I think that R1a is a substratum for Andronovo culture.
I think that R1a belong to Keltiminar culture.
There is no other choice for Keltiminar culture besides the R1a.
Keltiminar culture also is parental to Pit–Comb Ware culture which was in North Eastern Europe

 

[Alan]

Let's make a fact check here...



You are aware that one of the key Akkadian cities, Ninive (near modern Mossul, in the Ninive governorate that is, aptly, named after the ancient city) straddles Iraqi Kurdistan?




Akkadian is an East Semitic language (together with Eblaite, spoken around the city of Ebla in Syria), and the Akkadians were home to northern Mesopotamia from relatively early on: Akkadian is the third-oldest attested language of the world (after Sumerian and Old Egyptian), and it eventually became the dominant language of Mesopotamia (eclipsing Sumerian), before being itself eclipsed by Aramaic. Really, get your Near Eastern history straight, man.

As already wrote, the Akkadians came from the levant first settled in Sumeria in South and Central Mesopotamia merged and replaced the Sumerians and later conquered more lands towards North. North Mesopotamia was settled by Subarian, Hurrian and Gutian people. As seen with the statements of Assyrian King l Assur ubalit on Assyrian inscription in which he calls himself conquerer of subaru and Gutian Lands.

Als erster assyrischer König soll Aššur-uballit (nach Inschriften von Adad-nîrāri I.) Siege gegen die Šubaräer gewonnen haben. Tukulti-Ninurta I. nennt sich dann Eroberer des ausgedehnten Šubaru und der Guti-Länder, Assurhaddon König der Länder von Šubartu, Guti und Hatti.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subartu

It is not clear if Indo European tribes were native to North Mesopotamia but certanly they were already there when the Akkadians and later Assyrians started to conquer more towards North as seen on archeological findings of Scythian, Cimmerian, Gutian and even Hittite settlements in Subartu.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...m-discovered-beneath-mound-in-Iraqi-Kurdistan
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30250-A-Stunning-Find-in-Kurdistan

by the way I am not saying they weren't in Northern Mesopotamia already earlier but only in a small part of it (around Niniveh and Central_East Syria). To the rest and majority of Northern Mesopotamia they expanded much later with the Assyrians as seen on various maps and sources.

The infamous Ninive city was inside North Mesopotamia, true, but the city was only a small part of the larger North Mesopotamian landscape and not even inside Iraqi Kurdistan which is more mountanious.

Later the Cimmerians, Scythians, Babylonians led by the Medes, basically everyone who was sick of the Assyrian tyranny came together and conquered the city of Niniveh and destroyed the Assyrians totaly, so that they died out.

Explain to me then exactly why Avestan, the sacred language of Zoroastrianism, far older than modern Kurdish, shows no sign of ergativity, and neither does Vedic Sanskrit, which was very similar to Avestan? You also have the case of Old Persian (ancestor of modern Persian, or Farsi), which shows no signs of ergativity either.

Kurdish is only part ergativ
It is still not clear when and how the ergativity reached modern iranic tongues. But I know from linguists themselves that Persian and even East Iranic tongues such as Pashto show signs of ergativity, just not so clearly because Farsi has lost Casus Obliquus. In the past the people thought ergativity came from Caucasian admixture but if that was the case than this Caucasian admixture was very early on because it is found in various Iranic tongues. Which makes sense since Iranic groups were neighbors to Caucasians for long time.

I was also told that some Parthian inscriptions in China showed part ergativity.

 

[Goga]

You should be aware that it is called "Afro-Asiatic" languages for a reason, because Semitic languages were (with the sole exception of Ethiosemitic) located geographically in Western Asia. The idea of a Proto-Afroasiatic homeland in East Africa is ridiculous if you consider that three branches of Afroasiatic (Berber, Egyptian and Semitic) border on the Mediterranean. The Chadic peoples must have originated in the vicinity of the Mediterranean, originally, since they're close with the Berber languages: there's also a strong genetic evidence for this, as you may know the Chadic (and adjacent non-Afroasiatic) peoples have high percentages of Y-haplogroup R1b, more specifically the subclade V88, which appears to be tied with the expansion of the Afroasiatic languages:

You really should stop thinking of the Semites as a "desert people". In addition to 'snow' and 'bear', you also have a common word for 'pig' (Akkadian "ḫuzīru", Arabic "khanzīr", Aramaic "ḥzīrā", Hebrew ḥazir"), which the Halaf culture actually possessed.

I'm sure that Afro-Asiatic languages are linked with 'E' Y-DNA. Berbers are NATIVE African people who belong mostly to 'E' Y-DNA and Berber languages are (North) African languages that are part of greater Afro-Asiatic languages. African Berbers are mostly Y-DNA 'E' and it's very ridiculous to say that Berbers are from Mesopotamia. And you like it or not, Afro-Asiatic people are desert people. ONCE AGAIN, they have also snow in South Levant! How is it possible you don't know this? It does even snow in AFRICA, in Morocco (Atlas Mountains), Tunisia, Algeria, Kenya (Mount Kenya), Tanzania (Mount Kilimanjaro) and even in Sahara .... !

 

[Robert6]

I think that R1a is a substratum for Andronovo culture.
I think that R1a belong to Keltiminar culture.
There is no other choice for Keltiminar culture besides the R1a.
Keltiminar culture also is parental to Pit–Comb Ware culture which was in North Eastern Europe

Keltiminar culture was a very populated culture(many people)


The Kelteminar people lived in huge houses (size 24m x 17m and height 10m), which housed the whole tribal community of about 100-120 people. They adorned themselves with beads made of shells. They manufactured stone axes and miniature trapezoidal flint arrowheads. For cooking, they used clay vessels produced without the potter's wheel.
The Kelteminar economy was based on sedentary fishing and hunting.

 

[bicicleur 2]

You should be aware that it is called "Afro-Asiatic" languages for a reason, because Semitic languages were (with the sole exception of Ethiosemitic) located geographically in Western Asia. The idea of a Proto-Afroasiatic homeland in East Africa is ridiculous if you consider that three branches of Afroasiatic (Berber, Egyptian and Semitic) border on the Mediterranean. The Chadic peoples must have originated in the vicinity of the Mediterranean, originally, since they're close with the Berber languages: there's also a strong genetic evidence for this, as you may know the Chadic (and adjacent non-Afroasiatic) peoples have high percentages of Y-haplogroup R1b, more specifically the subclade V88, which appears to be tied with the expansion of the Afroasiatic languages

do you have any clue when and how Chadic language originated? with what mtDNA are R1b-V88 connected?

 

[Robert6]

I started a new thread about the Kelteminar haplo.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...of-Pit-Comb-ware-cultures?p=446923#post446923

 

[Taranis]

As already wrote, the Akkadians came from the levant first settled in Sumeria in South and Central Mesopotamia merged and replaced the Sumerians and later conquered more lands towards North. North Mesopotamia was settled by Subarian, Hurrian and Gutian people. As seen with the statements of Assyrian King l Assur ubalit on Assyrian inscription in which he calls himself conquerer of subaru and Gutian Lands.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subartu

It is not clear if Indo European tribes were native to North Mesopotamia but certanly they were already there when the Akkadians and later Assyrians started to conquer more towards North as seen on archeological findings of Scythian, Cimmerian and even Hittite settlements in Subartu.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30250-A-Stunning-Find-in-Kurdistan

by the way I am not saying they weren't in Northern Mesopotamia already earlier but only in a small part of it (around Niniveh and Eastern Syria). To the rest and majority of Northern Mesopotamia they expanded much later with the Assyrians as seen on various maps and sources.

The infamous Ninive city was inside North Mesopotamia, true, but the city was only a small part of the larger North Mesopotamian landscape and not even inside Iraqi Kurdistan which is more mountanious.

Later the Cimmerians, Scythians, Medes, Babylonians basically everyone who was sick of the Assyrian rule came together and conquered the city of Niniveh and destroyed the Assyrians totaly, so that they died out.

Kurdish is only part ergativ
It is still not clear when and how the ergativity reached modern iranic tongues. But I know from linguists themselves that Persian and even East Iranic tongues such as Pashto show signs of ergativity, just not so clearly because Farsi has lost Casus Obliquus. In the past the people thought ergativity came from Caucasian admixture but if that was the case than this Caucasian admixture was very early on because it is found in various Iranic tongues. Which makes sense since Iranic groups were neighbors to Caucasians for long time.

I was also told that some Parthian inscriptions in China showed part ergativity.

One of the problem that I do have with the idea that Iranic languages (or even Indo-Iranic!) originated is the existence of the Nuristani languages (which constitute a third branch of the Indo-Iranic languages, along with Indic and Iranic). If the original split was between Indic, Iranic and Nuristani, then the original Indo-Iranic homeland was - in my opinion at least, somewhere in the relative vicinity of the Hindukush, not the Caucasus (which, ironically though, the ancient Greeks labeled as the Caucasus in India... )

With regard for split-ergativity, I do think that a good case can be made that it is a later innovation and an areal feature of the Iranic languages, and not an original, based mainly on the situation in Old Persian and Avestan (as well as in Sanskrit).

I'm sure that Afro-Asiatic languages are linked with 'E' Y-DNA. Berbers are NATIVE African people who belong mostly to 'E' Y-DNA and Berber languages are (North) African languages that are part of greater Afro-Asiatic languages. African Berbers are mostly Y-DNA 'E' and it's very ridiculous to say that Berbers are from Mesopotamia. And you like it or not, Afro-Asiatic people are desert people. ONCE AGAIN, they have also snow in South Levant! How is it possible you don't know this? It does even snow in AFRICA, in Morocco (Atlas Mountains), Tunisia, Algeria, Kenya (Mount Kenya), Tanzania (Mount Kilimanjaro) and even in Sahara .... !

Where are your bears in Africa, though?

do you have any clue when and how Chadic language originated? with what mtDNA are R1b-V88 connected?

I'm not ruling out that Haplogroup E is actually tied with the Afroasiatic language, but I refuse to believe the whole "one y-haplogroup = one ethnonlinguistic group" trope, because humans enjoy way too much intermingle with one another for that to be accurate in any way. If you ask it in the reverse way, is actually there a possibility that V88 is not tied with the Afroasiatic? If not, what's your alternative, that there is a Celtic substrate in Chadic?

The Chadic languages are clearly tied with the "northern" branches of Afroasiatic (Berber, Egyptian and Semitic): both as part of "North Erythrean" (after Ehret 1995) and as part of "North Afrasian" (after Militarev 2000). There is also the unsettled question if Proto-Afroasiatic itself (or, barring that, at a sub-branch of Afroasiatic) includes farming vocabulary - without further judgement on that affair, I would like to point out that both Diakonoff and Militarev think so, while in contrast Ehret does not. In any case, to me, this suggests that the Proto-Afroasiatic homeland was somewhere close to the Mediterranean (how else could the Chadic peoples have picked up R1b?), not at the Red Sea, and certainly not in East Africa, and if a Mediterranean homeland is accurate, then the Halaf Culture as bearers of early Semitic make sense.

 

[Goga]

Where are your bears in Africa, though?

I'm not ruling out that Haplogroup E is actually tied with the Afroasiatic language, but I refuse to believe the whole "one y-haplogroup = one ethnonlinguistic group" trope, because humans enjoy way too much intermingle with one another for that to be accurate in any way.

Before total extinction Syrian brown bears lived also in Israel! And Israel is next to Africa!

Proto-Semites = some subclades of E + some subclades of J1 = homeland area between South Levant and Arabia

Same with Proto-Indo-Europeans. Proto-Indo-Europeans = J2a + some subclades of R1b + some subclades of R1a = homeland area between Maykop - Leyla-Tepe - Zagros Mountains