Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

Ike said:
I have a couple of first hand experiences on how CIA makes choice for the people and I've learned to recognize it ;)



No, I meant the people who know how to use their brains and don't watch TV.


Russian people were doing quite well under Putin, until CIA decided to put an end to that. So, one problem at the time. First we deal with the war and NATO plunderers, and then we'll deal with internal affairs. If your family house was under attack by skinheads, I wouldn't be the one trying to divert the attention of police by pointing out that you've taken money from your wife's account to pay for the stripper.
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You are missing another important clue in this puzzle.
When Ukrainians showed peaceful initiative and good will, and withdrew heavy equipment from around Debaltsevo, rebels seized the moment, broke the ceasefire attacking a conquering this area.
Putin's plan in action from day one. Destabilize Ukraine and grab the land for New Russian Empire. International peacekeepers would be very inconvenient to Putin's plan.
 
LeBrok said:
You are missing another important clue in this puzzle.
When Ukrainians showed peaceful initiative and good will, and withdrew heavy equipment from around Debaltsevo, rebels seized the moment, broke the ceasefire attacking a conquering this area.
Putin's plan in action from day one. Destabilize Ukraine and grab the land for New Russian Empire. International peacekeepers would be very inconvenient to Putin's plan.
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You can speak whatever you like but reality says different - Eastern block dissolved with Russia giving independence to all the republics, and on the other hand NATO troops 500 km away from Moscow with a Monroe Doctrine in the pocket, claiming righteousness. There are not enough LOLs on the internet for that.
 
Ike said:
You can speak whatever you like but reality says different - Eastern block dissolved with Russia giving independence to all the republics, and on the other hand NATO troops 500 km away from Moscow with a Monroe Doctrine in the pocket, claiming righteousness. There are not enough LOLs on the internet for that.
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Here we go, Russia gave independence to all she conquered and enslaved nations, same as British Empire did and few others. Nato is a union of independent countries and nobody feels a need to leave, to escape. But if they desire so they can leave at any moment. There is not even on example of Nato occupation of a country who wants to leave. On contrary, we have a very fresh example of Russian invasion of Ukraine who wants out off "Russian friendship".
 
LeBrok said:
You are missing another important clue in this puzzle.
When Ukrainians showed peaceful initiative and good will, and withdrew heavy equipment from around Debaltsevo, rebels seized the moment, broke the ceasefire attacking a conquering this area.
Putin's plan in action from day one. Destabilize Ukraine and grab the land for New Russian Empire. International peacekeepers would be very inconvenient to Putin's plan.
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Wrong! The front line which was aggreed upon in Minsk was completely ignoring the Debaltsevo cauldron, because Poroshenko denied there is a cauldron around Debaltsevo. And he still denies today. As a result, the cauldon was ignored during Minsk 2.0 and poor soldiers were left trapped intentionally behind the official front line. While ukrainian media hides the existence of this cauldron from Ukrainian audience, the west crap media tries to fabricate a propaganda story from this unresolved issue.
More answers to come soon when I have more time.
 
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Dagne said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OU4PScLOu8

Ikke, look at this broadcast of Russian TV, even if one doesn't understand the language the message is clear - about how easy it would be for the Russian army to reach European capitals...
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And even without knowing Russian, I understood the smiley at the end of the footage.
snapshot3.jpg
Having said that, it is a stupid joke. I think even some russians fell into the trap, because a smiley in a footage is easily overlooked, as opposed to static text.

I have to tell you yet another dark secred: Russia has nukes. Yes, it's true, Putin can't hide the truth anymore. ;)
 
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LeBrok said:
Nazis, as per definition, put their country above everything else, degrading or hating other nationalities at the same time. What kind of russian Nazis would go to another country, never mind Ukraine who "slotters" ethnic Russians, and fight for foreigners?! Perhaps you didn't assorted these Russian mercenaries into a correct political group?
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It seems to be crazy reality. The russian nazis always opposed Putin, like most nazis all over the world oppose their own countries governments. They think Putin is jewish or part of a jewish conspiracy. Second, they don't accept a multi-ethnic Russia and I think they even prefer a smaller and ethically clean Russia. Another funny fact is that Kievan rulers are almost all jewish, who collaborate with ukrainian nazis and nazi mercenaries from Sweden, Croatia, France etc..
Here you can see a march of russian nazis, some of them being interviewed. I can not understand most of it, but occasionally the crowd shouts "Slava Ukraina" (Glory Ukraine) and "Putin huilolololo".


In the most famous nazi forum I found translations from one poster:

"DNR burn in hell
Glory to Kievian Russia
Novorussia suck
Glory to Ukrain Glory to heroes"

The piece "Novorossia suck" is really strange as they are russians as you said. I think they support Kiev because they consider it Russia's little brother.

At the beginning of the vid there is a crowd with DNR flags, so I suppose it is a different crowd.

Here the shoutings are more clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBN20agVH70

If any russian speaking member finds this info to be false, then please let me know.
 
Dagne said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OU4PScLOu8

Ikke, look at this broadcast of Russian TV, even if one doesn't understand the language the message is clear - about how easy it would be for the Russian army to reach European capitals...
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Right on, Ikke show us Nato propaganda movie about conquering Russia. I said again and again, most Russians dream about big Russian Empire again, that's why Putin was elected on base of this dream, this goal, and he acts accordingly.
 
Lithuanian foreign minister Linkevičius admits in austrian newspaper that Lithuania is already providing lethal weapon to Kiev.

First question: "do you have proof that Russia intends to attack or destabilize your country?"
Answer: "The short answer is: No. ...."

...

"We supported Ukraine in all possible ways: humanitarian, politically and military."

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/4659944/Besser-ein-kalter-als-ein-heisser-Krieg

I would like to know who allowed them to do this. Has EU lost control of it's members?

War rethoric and madness. Keep poking the bear, eventually you'll get what you asking for. Try to forbid russian language like Ukraine tried. It worked well for Ukraine. Balkanization is spreading in eastern europe.
 
"Putin will target the Baltic next, Defence Secretary warns"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11421751/Putin-will-target-the-Baltic-next-Defence-Secretary-warns.html

Exactly as I predicted months before, the Baltics is the next fire place, since Ukrainian army needs a break now.
But I trust our "officials" will provide proof soon, as they always reliably did before going to war, LOL.
Sickening...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...nto-all-out-war-says-Gen-Adrian-Bradshaw.html

"The retreat was a severe defeat for Ukrainian troops, who had been encircled in the strategically important town (Debaltsevo) by rebel forces since last week. The European Union called it a “clear violation” of the Minsk peace plan."

Exactly as I predicted, the denied and ignored cauldron during Minsk 2.0 is used now as "proof of russian aggression". Madness. I think Yetos is right, the war is already decided.
 
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LeBrok said:
You are having it completely backward. You can't even realize that nations can be independent and make their own choices. You strike me as someone who grew up in totalitarian system, or is strong on conspiracy theory, where everything is controlled from the top down, and you can't imagine alternative. To you Finns can't have a discussion about Nato, because for you it is a proof that someone is pushing an agenda onto them.
To you Finns are incapable of having an independent intelligent thought about Nato. They must be some sort of subspecies to you. Likewise any article abroad about Finns means that this is the voice of foreign propagandist influencing Finn's thinking. Dude, this is just crazy.
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Can't you read the quote? It says finnish public is opposed to Nato membership, but still they are trying. "Democracy" I guess.

instead planty proofs about Russian troops there. But for you it doesn't matter, Nato is the aggressor, lol. Crazy stuff again.
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The past shows the credibility of these "proofs". The aggressor are the instigators of the coup, behind Russia's back, deliberately ignoring important Ukrainian-Russian contracts like the big russian fleet in Sevastopol (Obama about Putin: "not because of a grand strategy, but because he was totally surprised").
The EU proposal also included military paragraphs, so Russia was about to lose it's fleet. You remember Yushchenko? He was result of the "Orange Revolution" back in 2004, and even he did not accept such proposal from EU to open it's market, because it were suicide. East Ukrainian industry is tighly intermingled with Russian industry. What EU demanded is a cut of these vital relations, which would cause Donbass to die economically. Enough proof of deliberate and malicious intentions? I have more if you want.

EDIT: "Canada has been helping to train Ukrainian soldiers for the last decade, but it isn't enough, he says."

Russian troops can secure independent and legit referendum!? Do you know what you are saying???!!! Lol, the farce referendum where 97% chosen to belong to Russia!
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My patience is endless, so here I remind you again of the systematic opinion polls of the US-based PEW institute posted earlier in this thread, which basically confirms the referendum result: 89% were in favour of the referendum result back in May.
I guess this is a Putin conspiracy, right?

Here is a new Putin conspiracy from a Germany-based institute GFK, Jan 2015:
82% totally in favour belonging to Russia
11% slightly in favour belonging to Russia
2% rather opposed belonging to Russia
2% totally oppose belonging to Russia
3% don't know

source: http://www.gfk.com/ua/documents/presentations/gfk_report_freecrimea.pdf (page 7)

That sums up to 93% in favour belonging to Russia.

GFK group is a market research company based in Nürnberg. and the sponsors of this poll are "free crimea" (don't know who this is) and a canadian foundation.

EDIT: regarding farce: what do you think about the 99.8% result of the Falklands souvereignity referendum?
 
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LeBrok said:
No I don't, it was directed towards Russia no you personally. Feel free to answer the question though: "Would you say to your wife or a friend "I could smash your face if I really wanted to, but I won't", and expect understanding and friendship?
Many germans are russophiles. Perhaps abused wife syndrome. Russia kicked Germans but, so it must be most powerful and deserves respect and love. No matter how Russia behaves you will forgive and forget.
I'm not sure how you can claim any objectivity on this subject?
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Your question is invalid, because you try to smuggle a wrong narrative inside. Nice try.

I am actually not russophile. I dislike many things about Russia and Russians, but that's not relevant. I don't believe in totalitarian universalism, because it is arrogant and turns out to be hypocrite in most cases.
My opinion is based on informations which make me see how EU acts against it's own interests. Many Germans remember not only WW2, but also times before, where both often had rather good relationships. WW2 was actually a strong anomaly, an irony of history.

I see that Poles and Balts are the most russophobes in Europe. I think they are victims of politics which nourishes their paranoia in favour of non-european interests.
The historic tragedy is that Europe has deliberately destroyed the unique opportunity to become strong, independent, prosperous, and friendly with it's big russian neighbour. Actually Putin was the moderate one, but instead the constructive links have been deliberately cut - not by Russia, but by us. This demonization campaign can not be reversed without losing face, so we are in a trap now. It looks grim, Putin will end like Gaddafi or Hitler, Russia drenched in blood. Alternatively, nukes from Russia.
 
LeBrok said:
Your beloved Putin is the richest guy in the world. All stolen money from Russian people.
Bill Browder helped Putin to uncover many oligarchs who were stealing money from their companies. He was Putin's hero, till he uncovered that Putin is doing exactly the same. He's russian lawyer was killed and he was kicked out of Russia as an enemy of state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Browder
http://www.spiegel.de/international...s-on-the-putin-regime-in-russia-a-845132.html
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...says-russias-once-largest-foreigner-investor/
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I heard about these stories.
I wonder how Russian GDP per capita in USD has increased ten-fold during Putin's time if he stole 200 billions.
Assuming he stole so much money from Russian people, how can he be a nationalist then?
I have doubts. I rather think there are different ways to calculate government wealth.

If searching for skeletons in Putin's closet, I'd rather check the events before the second chechnya operation. On the other hand, that's not our duty, since we are not russian citizens and others have many skeletons too, unfortunately.
 
LeBrok said:
Ukraine wants to play open cards and calls for UN and EU peacekeepers to be deployed along the lines to separate fighting forces. Putin quickly shoots down this idea. Well, who has the hidden agenda in this war? International peacekeepers would really screwed up Putin's plans for further aggression, destabilization of Ukraine and expansion of Russian controlled territory.
Wouldn't rebels want international peacekeepers for their protection against the "genocidal" Ukrainians? Ukrainian forces would be cut out from rebels, and rebels could declare autonomy or even independance. Ukraine is not in the position to stop them now, and would be even less so if peacekeepers are in the way.
I think it is so obvious now who was and is the aggressor.
https://jhaines6.wordpress.com/2015...ussia-slams-ukraine-idea-for-eu-peacekeepers/
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Is this part of the Minsk agreement? I don't think so. EU agrees with Russia. EU is also anything but neutral and Putin is no fool.
 
ElHorsto said:
Lithuanian foreign minister Linkevičius admits in austrian newspaper that Lithuania is already providing lethal weapon to Kiev.

"We supported Ukraine in all possible ways: humanitarian, politically and military."

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/4659944/Besser-ein-kalter-als-ein-heisser-Krieg
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http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/4659944/Besser-ein-kalter-als-ein-heisser-Krieg

They say military and you think a lethal weapon. Does supplying military mechanics qualify as a lethal weapon? I'm guessing, but it points to your intentional or natural exaggeration. Your mine makes more than there is.

I would like to know who allowed them to do this. Has EU lost control of it's members?
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Perhaps Lithuania gave a good deal to Ukrainians purchasing military equipment. Does it qualified as military help? Though it could be used as a figure of speech.

War rethoric and madness. Keep poking the bear, eventually you'll get what you asking for. Try to forbid russian language like Ukraine tried. It worked well for Ukraine. Balkanization is spreading in eastern europe.
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Is this your admittance of Russian intervention into Ukrainian affairs? Like teaching them a lesson and taking a vengeance? Ukrainians are getting punished because they poked the bear?
Your objectivity is out the window. You are excusing a bully, " if someone angers the big guy, he will get what he deserves." A great morality, my friend!
 
ElHorsto said:
Can't you read the quote? It says finnish public is opposed to Nato membership, but still they are trying. "Democracy" I guess.
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Unlike you, I don't care if they are for or against. This was my point. I'm saying that they are free to make their own mind. That's how democracy works. I'm hoping that you going to get it one day.

The EU proposal also included military paragraphs, so Russia was about to lose it's fleet. You remember Yushchenko? He was result of the "Orange Revolution" back in 2004, and even he did not accept such proposal from EU to open it's market, because it were suicide. East Ukrainian industry is tighly intermingled with Russian industry. What EU demanded is a cut of these vital relations, which would cause Donbass to die economically. Enough proof of deliberate and malicious intentions? I have more if you want.
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Ukrainians consider Donbass as their territory. Why would they block economic relation of Donbass with Russia? To make whole Ukraine even poorer?!!!

EDIT: "Canada has been helping to train Ukrainian soldiers for the last decade, but it isn't enough, he says."
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What?! Yanukovych sent soldiers to Nato for training? Maybe there were Russian spies lol?



My patience is endless, so here I remind you again of the systematic opinion polls of the US-based PEW institute posted earlier in this thread, which basically confirms the referendum result: 89% were in favour of the referendum result back in May.
I guess this is a Putin conspiracy, right?

Here is a new Putin conspiracy from a Germany-based institute GFK, Jan 2015:
82% totally in favour belonging to Russia
11% slightly in favour belonging to Russia
2% rather opposed belonging to Russia
2% totally oppose belonging to Russia
3% don't know

source: http://www.gfk.com/ua/documents/presentations/gfk_report_freecrimea.pdf (page 7)

That sums up to 93% in favour belonging to Russia.

GFK group is a market research company based in Nürnberg. and the sponsors of this poll are "free crimea" (don't know who this is) and a canadian foundation.

EDIT: regarding farce: what do you think about the 99.8% result of the Falklands souvereignity referendum?
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How can you even compare these two referendums. It must be from pure desperation to save Putin's face.
Ethnic groups[edit]

About 70 percent are of British descent, primarily as a result of Scottish and Welsh immigration to the islands.[9] The native-born inhabitants call themselves "Islanders"; the term "Kelpers", from the kelp which grows profusely around the islands, is no longer used in the Islands. People from the United Kingdom who have obtained Falkland Island status are known locally as 'belongers'.
A few Islanders are of French, Gibraltarian, Portuguese and Scandinavian descent. Some are the descendants of whalers who reached the Islands during the last two centuries. There is also a small minority of South American, mainly Chilean origin, and in more recent times many people from Saint Helena have also come to work and live in the Islands.[10]
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All were British citizens already for almost 200 years, all speaking english, 70% ethnic British the rest a mix from around the world, and Britain has much better economy than Argentina. I don't see Argentinian minority in the mix to vote for Argentina, do you?

250px-Distribution_of_ethnic_groups_in_Crimea_2001.png

Official count says 97% voted for Russia with 83% attendance. It means that all Russians, all Tatars (we know how they love Russians), all others and one third of Ukrainians voted "Yes joining Russia" for official numbers to be true! It is obvious that it was a farce.
Can you do the math yourself and make sense in your head. The figures are very transparent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014

"Polling by the Razumkov Centre in 2008 found that 63.8% of Crimeans (76% of Russians, 55% of Ukrainians, and 14% of Crimean Tatars, respectively) would like Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia and 53.8% would like to preserve its current status, but with expanded powers and rights. Razumkov characterized Crimeans' views as controversial and unsteady, and therefore vulnerable to internal and external influences.[32] A poll by the International Republican Institute in May 2013 found that 53% wanted "Autonomy in Ukraine (as today)", 12% were for "Crimean Tatar autonomy within Ukraine", 2% for "Common oblast of Ukraine" and 23% voted for "Crimea should be separated and given to Russia"."


I remember this Russian type voting from Poland way back. 99.9 attendance and 99.9 voted for Communist party, every time! I'm sure you should remember them from DDR.
Putin knows how to direct voting from his KGB years and "observed" the voting himself.

You didn't answer the question. What do you think Putin would do if people voted to stay with Ukraine?
 
ElHorsto said:
I see that Poles and Balts are the most russophobes in Europe. I think they are victims of politics which nourishes their paranoia in favour of non-european interests.
The historic tragedy is that Europe has deliberately destroyed the unique opportunity to become strong, independent, prosperous, and friendly with it's big russian neighbour. Actually Putin was the moderate one, but instead the constructive links have been deliberately cut - not by Russia, but by us. This demonization campaign can not be reversed without losing face, so we are in a trap now. It looks grim, Putin will end like Gaddafi or Hitler, Russia drenched in blood. Alternatively, nukes from Russia.
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Perhaps you can answer this, why Poland treats Germany as a friend now, but is still afraid of Russia, especially Putin's Russia?

Russia has big resources to play a role of a big brother to it's neighbors. Instead they play a role of a scary boss. Demonization is based on Putin's actions. Would you accused the rest of the world for demonizing Nazi Germany?
 
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