Politics Future of Greece

[Yetos]

personally I am calm,

how can not to be,

those who see behind, they know,


Piketty won

 

[LeBrok]

Of course, people in any country can stay in current state if they deny to accept and implement change. But no eternally.

Linking for bad Status quo can only making things worse, changes sooner or later, will happen in one way or another.

All Europe can learn from German and other successful economies in Euro zone, and why not, they are role models and leaders.

If systemic change and introducing new institutions can solve situation for better, why it is utopia. I think something different, we speak about novelty, something new to be built, term utopia is different, it is society which posses perfect qualities.

It is probably about time to separate politics from economy in general. After 100 years or more of experimentation we know what works what doesn't. Too much socialism never worked for a long run. I'm not sure why it is still tried? Recent examples are Greece and Venezuela to provide addition proofs that it doesn't work.

 

[LeBrok]

@ Lebrok
the far left in Greece are 2 parties,
1 is the Russian
2 is the USA

Nope, it is the Greeks, nobody from the outside. Stop blaming the world, look inside for problems and outside for solutions.

 

[LeBrok]

Doesn't Tsipras look like a hypocrite now?

 

[Yetos]

Doesn't Tsipras look like a hypocrite now?

no he was before Texas. now we know him,
another papandreou,

 

[Angela]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

I've been listening to all the talking heads on the Sunday news shows in the U.S. Conclusion is that the only lasting way out of this mess for Greece is growth and that severe austerity measures will make that highly unlikely. Somebody tell that to the Eurozone negotiators.

 

[ElHorsto]

Nope, it is the Greeks, nobody from the outside. Stop blaming the world, look inside for problems and outside for solutions.

Greeks have their share of responsibiltiy. But when blaming Greeks we shouldn't spare also those who pushed Greece into the EURO trap in anticipation of "rescue" by our tax money and subsequent shopping spree as a measure of austerity, despite the many warnings.
We rightfully condemned the bankers who lend mortgages to home "owners", knowing that they have zero securities, causing the mortgage crisis and then blackmailing taxpayers by being "too big to fail". I see no reason to spare those who conspired with the greek elites. What once was called "too big to fail" is now called EURO.

 

[ElHorsto]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

I've been listening to all the talking heads on the Sunday news shows in the U.S. Conclusion is that the only lasting way out of this mess for Greece is growth and that severe austerity measures will make that highly unlikely. Somebody tell that to the Eurozone negotiators.

Isn't that what the 'looneys' are trying to explain all the time? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

The austerity is idiotic, because it spares the most corrupt networks and kills the remnants of healthy economy. Now as Germany seems to approach it's end of capacity+patience, US is aligning with Tsipras because they want Greece to remain in the EURO. Schäuble on the other hand wants to rip Greece out of the EURO for 5 years, which is once more devastating for Greece after it was in the EURO trap already for so long. He wants to stop wasting tax money, that's nice, but what then? I'm afraid that Merkel and Schäuble are facing a dilemma.

 

[LeBrok]

Greeks have their share of responsibiltiy. But when blaming Greeks we shouldn't spare also those who pushed Greece into the EURO trap in anticipation of "rescue" by our tax money and subsequent shopping spree as a measure of austerity, despite the many warnings.

Do you mean that Greeks like children didn't know what they were doing?

 

[ElHorsto]

Do you mean that Greeks like children didn't know what they were doing?

Not only Greeks.

 

[Angela]

Isn't that what the 'looneys' are trying to explain all the time? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

The austerity is idiotic, because it spares the most corrupt networks and kills the remnants of healthy economy. Now as Germany seems to approach it's end of capacity+patience, US is aligning with Tsipras because they want Greece to remain in the EURO. Schäuble on the other hand wants to rip Greece out of the EURO for 5 years, which is once more devastating for Greece after it was in the EURO trap already for so long. He wants to stop wasting tax money, that's nice, but what then? I'm afraid that Merkel and Schäuble are facing a dilemma.

As numerous economists have pointed out, part of the debt should be written off. It's what's been done in the past and it's what makes the most sense. Most of the financial types I know propose that. They also think that austerity measures that are so stringent that they throw a country into a recession don't make any sense. This needs, and needed, a balanced approach. All this crew in Greece have proposed is a continuation of the same old system they've always had. I don't think Tsipras et al have any clue what on earth they're doing. It's as if we had elected the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd to run the country. I had to pass their encampment everyday, and they couldn't even organize toilets for themselves.

However, the rigidity and shortsightedness of thinking of Merkel and co. is beginning to rattle the financial people here. She's playing with fire. Greece's economy is too small to bring the world economy crashing down, but they think she's mistaken if she believes this won't effect the rest of Europe. If nothing else it's exposed the flaws in the Eurosystem, and more countries could eventually follow suit.

Has anyone else used the phrase "loony left"? Maybe I should copyright it if no one else has used it; in addition to being so descriptive, it has such a nice "ring" to it. I just love alliteration. Someone could do a political cartoon of their offices and title it "The Loony Bin"!

 

[Yetos]

guys

do we understand that through Greece, EU saved G-Sachs?
do we understand after Liehman, a collapse of G-Sachs?
do we understand that deposits 'fly' from Greece-Cyprus to West Europe?

if we understand, then we know where tax pay money go

 

[LeBrok]

guys

do we understand that through Greece, EU saved G-Sachs?
do we understand after Liehman, a collapse of G-Sachs?
do we understand that deposits 'fly' from Greece-Cyprus to West Europe?

if we understand, then we know where tax pay money go

If Greeks had decent economy, they wouldn't need to invent "creative accounting" to cheat their way into the debt. Fix your economy first and you have a great future, either with Euro or Drachma.

 

[ElHorsto]

As numerous economists have pointed out, part of the debt should be written off. It's what's been done in the past and it's what makes the most sense. Most of the financial types I know propose that. They also think that austerity measures that are so stringent that they throw a country into a recession don't make any sense. This needs, and needed, a balanced approach. All this crew in Greece have proposed is a continuation of the same old system they've always had. I don't think Tsipras et al have any clue what on earth they're doing. It's as if we had elected the "Occupy Wall Street" crowd to run the country. I had to pass their encampment everyday, and they couldn't even organize toilets for themselves.

I wasn't attending the negotiations, neither do I know which internal obstacles there are in Greece. Thus I avoid judging Tsipras too rigidly, but for now he doesn't seem to be worse compared to the others before. A least he makes a point that the current path was wrong.

However, the rigidity and shortsightedness of thinking of Merkel and co. is beginning to rattle the financial people here. She's playing with fire. Greece's economy is too small to bring the world economy crashing down, but they think she's mistaken if she believes this won't effect the rest of Europe. If nothing else it's exposed the flaws in the Eurosystem, and more countries could eventually follow suit.

Yes, the economic significance of Greece is one of the minor problems. It's significance is in a complex of finance, intra-EU calamities, geopolitics, laws and principles. Other south-euro countries are also closely watching what is happening to Greece, because it might affect them later. Germany's credibility is also at stake. EU wants to push centralization. Positions in the equity markets, etc.

 

[LeBrok]

However, the rigidity and shortsightedness of thinking of Merkel and co. is beginning to rattle the financial people here. She's playing with fire. Greece's economy is too small to bring the world economy crashing down, but they think she's mistaken if she believes this won't effect the rest of Europe. If nothing else it's exposed the flaws in the Eurosystem, and more countries could eventually follow suit.

There will be other failed financially states or cities, it is just a matter of when and who. It is important to have prevention and protection against built into the system. Greeks is the first one and a learning curve.
Fiscal audits of all levels of EU governments should be in place. Perhaps also, EU should have powers to adjust economic activities/regulations and social spending to make sure things can't go totally messed up.
Secession plans for difficult members, protecting EU.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes, the economic significance of Greece is one of the minor problems. It's significance is in a complex of finance, intra-EU calamities, geopolitics, laws and principles. Other south-euro countries are also closely watching what is happening to Greece, because it might affect them later.

There are interesting implications in case Greece is kicked out. If Greece do well economically by themselves, though with limited credits and no production economy it will be almost impossible, this can encourage others to drop of the burden of debt, go bankrupt and secede. However, if they are stuck in slow economic growth, trade barriers, traveling and working visas to EU, lower standard of living, this will work as a deterrent and keep all in EU. This all might need 5 year window to be clear to others after Greek secession. If Greece leaves now, I don't think any other would follow yet. It will start wait and see game.

 

[Yetos]

If Greeks had decent economy, they wouldn't need to invent "creative accounting" to cheat their way into the debt. Fix your economy first and you have a great future, either with Euro or Drachma.

sory
i do not want to offend you,
but you are total ignorant in what is going on here
better listen what others in forum say,
than screaming.
how you can have descent economy?
search the oriental posts/links
you will understand better
Deutsch Schauble past with Greek Tsochatzopoulos past have something common, search it.
and with yelding offences you only create a negative image of you

search Christoforakos case and why germany is not giving him to Greece to be judged

GREECE could not have descent economy
TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT
SEARCH PYTHIA PLAN σχεδιο Πυθια
an almost break up inside NATO

they plan to assasinate him
http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/anyt...and8243-for-assassinating-pm-karamanlis/8990/
the man who create the phone net has been found hanged before the effort


and yes we are quilty for voting politicians who cared about their own 'glory', and took stupid loans
but bankers came to us, although they knew how weak economy was, not even thinking the risk, why?

 

[Yetos]

I wasn't attending the negotiations, neither do I know which internal obstacles there are in Greece. Thus I avoid judging Tsipras too rigidly, but for now he doesn't seem to be worse compared to the others before. A least he makes a point that the current path was wrong.



Yes, the economic significance of Greece is one of the minor problems. It's significance is in a complex of finance, intra-EU calamities, geopolitics, laws and principles. Other south-euro countries are also closely watching what is happening to Greece, because it might affect them later. Germany's credibility is also at stake. EU wants to push centralization. Positions in the equity markets, etc.

again +1 from me
you seem to be one of the few who see behind,
no matter your choice, or opinion is, +1

 

[Yetos]

There are interesting implications in case Greece is kicked out. If Greece do well economically by themselves, though with limited credits and no production economy it will be almost impossible, this can encourage others to drop of the burden of debt, go bankrupt and secede. However, if they are stuck in slow economic growth, trade barriers, traveling and working visas to EU, lower standard of living, this will work as a deterrent and keep all in EU. This all might need 5 year window to be clear to others after Greek secession. If Greece leaves now, I don't think any other would follow yet. It will start wait and see game.

Tottaly wrong,
Pythia plan 4
Kissinger's plans stoped by a great EU dreamer,
search who to understand, EUgame of centralization

TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT,
GREECE IS THE BAIT
VICTIM IS ELSEWHERE

there can not be a 5 year out
is either out, either in,

 

[bicicleur 2]

Isn't that what the 'looneys' are trying to explain all the time? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

The austerity is idiotic, because it spares the most corrupt networks and kills the remnants of healthy economy. Now as Germany seems to approach it's end of capacity+patience, US is aligning with Tsipras because they want Greece to remain in the EURO. Schäuble on the other hand wants to rip Greece out of the EURO for 5 years, which is once more devastating for Greece after it was in the EURO trap already for so long. He wants to stop wasting tax money, that's nice, but what then? I'm afraid that Merkel and Schäuble are facing a dilemma.

who is to blaim that the corruption is still there?
EU cannot dismantle corruption in Greece, it is the Greeks who have to do this, but they fail
that is how Greece became a bottomless pit without any perspective on recovery

if Obama wants to keep Greece in EU, I propose he uses some US taxmoney to grant Greece a loan

the longer this story lasts, the less options there will be left for Greece