Is Turkey a Western country ?

[DuPidh]

It is understood that as ethnic Albanian defend your nation but for this objection you're only partially right. Because the Turks during the Ottoman rule made a mess in the Balkans. And still a countries that had been under Ottoman boots cannot recover. Albanians were main Turkish allies, but Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians and Armanji suffered most depredations of the Turks and their Balkan Muslim allies.

In the eyes of many Balkan peoples Turks are perceived as occupiers, but in the eyes of many Albanians Turks are perceived as heroes. Someone can says it is history, but unfortunately it is questionable if he or she is right. Yes, some Turkish governments in the past attempted to build relatively good relations with former colonies, and it was good. But since the rise of Islamists in Turkey, things are starting to change. Islamists have indicated that their policy is neo-Ottomanism.

One of many articles in last several years:

Rise of the neo-Ottomans

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/clifford-d-may-rise-of-the-neo-ottomans

"A century later, the world looks rather different. There are good reasons to believe Europe is in decline and America in retreat (these are disparate phenomena). While it may be delusional to believe that Columbus encountered Muslims in the Caribbean, it is not crazy to believe that, over the decades ahead, fierce Muslim warriors will profoundly alter the world order once more.

Viewed in this light, Mr. Erdoğan looks like a neo-Ottoman, one who dreams of commanding Muslims — and those who have submitted to them — in many lands. If that’s accurate, the rift between Turkey and the West can only widen."
...

We will see how the situation will develop further. Balkan nations that have suffered of the Ottoman empire have reasons to worry, although there are those in the Balkans who are happy if neo-Ottomanism grows stronger.

So create a new thread where we can express our views about Turkish occupation of the Balkans. You would expect different point of views about what happen in Balkans. Not every one see the events through the glasses of Serb history since this history is cooked according to Serb appetites.
But this thread is about Turkey if its western or not. I said no. So its Serbia. Not a western country. Keep within the topic about Turkey. Don't hijack the thread.

 

[Garrick]

So create a new thread where we can express our views about Turkish occupation of the Balkans. You would expect different point of views about what happen in Balkans. Not every one see the events through the glasses of Serb history since this history is cooked according to Serb appetites.
But this thread is about Turkey if its western or not. I said no. So its Serbia. Not a western country. Keep within the topic about Turkey. Don't hijack the thread.

But politics of neo-Ottomanism directed towards Balkans and it is impossible to avoid in this thread. History is essential for an explanation of this policy.

Medieval Serbia was a real European country to Ottoman occupation. Standard of living in Serbia was similar as in England and the Scandinavian countries. Family members of Serbian rulers and nobles were married with wives and husbands, members of royals and nobles families throughout Europe.

Serbia's downfall began after the fall under Turkish rule. Unfortunately the country cannot choose occupiers. While other countries has advanced Balkans plunged into darkness. In the nineteenth century the difference between Turkey and European powers forces was so obvious that the Ottoman Empire was called the patient of the Bosphorus. Defeat and dissolution of Ottoman Empire was between 1908-1922. After fall of sultan Mehmed VI 1922 and declaration of republic 1924 we can speak about new Turkey. Do Islamists today want to turn the will of history?

 

[Boreas]

Was the reason of late industrialization in Spain, Islam or Ottomans?

Was the reason of late industrialization in Balkans, Islam or Ottomans?

 

[Sile]

Was the reason of late industrialization in Spain, Islam or Ottomans?

Was the reason of late industrialization in Balkans, Islam or Ottomans?

money for first, spain was bankrupt
and
Islam for other

The ottomans wanted to modernize, but because they inherited the defender of islam from previous centuries,( to their regret) they where held back in development.

 

[-RIFFIAN-]

My realistic answer is that Turkey is a kind of western country conquered by Muslims, just as the opposite happened in the Iberian peninsula (Spain).

Spanish Christians embrace more Arab and Muslim culture that the rest of Christians ,and on the other hand Turkish Muslims embrace more the European and Christian culture that the rest of the arabs & Muslims,sincerely these two countries and peoples have much in common :grin:

Arab blood runs in the veins of many Spaniards as in the case of European blood is running in the veins of many Turks, as a consequence of the conquests, many of the Spanish Muslims of the old al-Andalus were baptized a Christian, and many Byzantines Christians were baptized to Islam,I wonder ... why there Aryan Turks, blond and blue eyes :wary2:

 

[Boreas]

money for first, spain was bankrupt
and
Islam for other

The Ottomans wanted to modernize, but because they inherited the defender of islam from previous centuries,( to their regret) they where held back in development.

Interesting perspective, bankrupt can be an answer for Spain who enjoied colonisation of South America duing the age of discovery,

But impact of changing trade routes and its negative effects on Ottomans is not.

 

[Sile]

My realistic answer is that Turkey is a kind of western country conquered by Muslims, just as the opposite happened in the Iberian peninsula (Spain).

Spanish Christians embrace more Arab and Muslim culture that the rest of Christians ,and on the other hand Turkish Muslims embrace more the European and Christian culture that the rest of the arabs & Muslims,sincerely these two countries and peoples have much in common :grin:

Arab blood runs in the veins of many Spaniards as in the case of European blood is running in the veins of many Turks, as a consequence of the conquests, many of the Spanish Muslims of the old al-Andalus were baptized a Christian, and many Byzantines Christians were baptized to Islam,I wonder ... why there Aryan Turks, blond and blue eyes :wary2:

Its noted in history in all nations - The more power that the religious authorities have , the less modernisation occurs for that nation. Religion is a form of enslavement.

I am a religious person, but I do not believe or listen to any cleric..................my religious education was complete at 10 years of age.

 

[Yetos]

Interesting perspective, bankrupt can be an answer for Spain who enjoied colonisation of South America duing the age of discovery,

But impact of changing trade routes and its negative effects on Ottomans is not.

Boreas, you have to search more in what made Seljouk and Othomans, and what decline them,
to understand search the religion affairs of Seljouk, then the ottomans, and after the Suleiman the magnificent the religious affairs,
also search hadji-Bektas case,
remember that kadi-effents made a fetva special for Suleiman to kill Imbrahim.
the difference among Ottomans and Russia, is that first set the road backwards due to an 'strange' man, the other made an empire thanks to an 'strange' man,
until the times of Suleiman, Othoman empire who progressive, after him and entrance of Hodza/Kadi in palace was backwards driving,
it is the same story that happened to East Roman empire,

 

[Boreas]

Its noted in history in all nations - The more power that the religious authorities have , the less modernisation occurs for that nation. Religion is a form of enslavement.

I am a religious person, but I do not believe or listen to any cleric..................my religious education was complete at 10 years of age.

I am not religious man also I am not atheist. Since this ramadan, I have not been a muslim according to Turkish istatistics

Even Ataturks path turned into a stone which stays in front of modernisation. It turned into a nationalistic perspective.

According to your idea, Communist Russia would be top level of modernisation.


so I don't think, religion is right answer.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I'm giving accurate information:

60,000 Albanians apply for Serbian passports

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2015&mm=02&dd=06&nav_id=93111

You should not mention the match, it is shame for Albanians who set the drone in the match in Serbia in Belgrade with the boundaries of caricature of "Greater Albania" (with territories of 4 countries, ex Yu Macedonia, Greece, Serbia and Montenegro). This creature has provoke a reaction. It is same if in Kiev in the match Ukraine-Russia Russians would set the drone with the boundaries of "Greater Russia" or "New Russia" or in Spain in the match Spain-Morocco, Moroccans would set the drone with the boundaries of "Greater Morocco with Spain territories".

But part of public have got it wrong. They are only supposed to laugh at this creature and not enter the court. The entry of spectators into the playing court is not allowed.

I was not referring to the match. I was referring to the Serbian police before and after the match. The situation was as some kind of war situation, with Serb police with machine guns protecting the Albanian football players. (Protection from whom) . It was not a normal situation ,which we generally see in western countries for sure . That kind of flag in stadium was not proofed that was issued in stadium by any Albanian fan. The guests should not be welcomed in such a way. But let it go, forget about it.
About the Serb passports maybe you are referring to the population of kosova, because those Albanians and Serbs include don't have the possibility to go in EU because the Kosovo state has not yet the possibility of visa liberalization. As I know the Albanians of Albania don't need to have a Serb passport. Probably you are confusing the inhabitants of kosova, because they are trying to have an Albanian or Serbian passport

 

[Piro Ilir]

oh really?

and who is bombing the right road?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC0gd4r6QQQ&spfreload=10

Did you see the whole video? Because that is clear that in Serbia some politicians are trying to put Serbia at the wrong direction. I think Vucic is doing what he can. There are still in Albania people that have good feelings for Russia and China either. Nostalgic people of the past. But this is changing thanks God. There are still people in Serbia and in Albania, who hates the west and the democracy. But we should not allowed them to destroy nor to bomb the westward journey of those regions

 

[Garrick]

Interesting perspective, bankrupt can be an answer for Spain who enjoied colonisation of South America duing the age of discovery,

But impact of changing trade routes and its negative effects on Ottomans is not.

Boreas
Explanation which Sile gives not to be underestimated. The facts that Ottoman Empire was falling long and dragged to the bottom and all its colonies. All European powers have proved to be more vital than the Ottoman Empire, including Russia. About reasons of the fall certainly we can long and widely discuss. But new see routes is not good explanation. Destruction was within empire and not caused by outside. Just the thought of the Ottoman Empire among European people evoked the backwardness
...

I was not referring to the match. I was referring to the Serbian police before and after the match. The situation was as some kind of war situation, with Serb police with machine guns protecting the Albanian football players. (Protection from whom) . It was not a normal situation ,which we generally see in western countries for sure . That kind of flag in stadium was not proofed that was issued in stadium by any Albanian fan. The guests should not be welcomed in such a way. But let it go, forget about it.
About the Serb passports maybe you are referring to the population of kosova, because those Albanians and Serbs include don't have the possibility to go in EU because the Kosovo state has not yet the possibility of visa liberalization. As I know the Albanians of Albania don't need to have a Serb passport. Probably you are confusing the inhabitants of kosova, because they are trying to have an Albanian or Serbian passport

I confuse nothing, I gave the link and everyone can read it. For Serbian police your idea is wrong but it doesn't matter.

 

[Garrick]

Did you see the whole video? Because that is clear that in Serbia some politicians are trying to put Serbia at the wrong direction. I think Vucic is doing what he can. There are still in Albania people that have good feelings for Russia and China either. Nostalgic people of the past. But this is changing thanks God. There are still people in Serbia and in Albania, who hates the west and the democracy. But we should not allowed them to destroy nor to bomb the westward journey of those regions

Someone would expect very strong anti Western feelings and emotions in Serbia, and it would be reasonable due to NATO bombing and destruction, but no. Everyone who comes from the West in Serbia cannot see it. Even many people from the West who do not know the Serbian culture are surprised how this is possible. Well, in Europe people generally know more. Simply people in Serbia are free by nature and liberal, and they are not much conservative. Even first Serbian constitution from 1835 (even Serbia had obligations towards Ottoman Empire) was liberal, that abolished serfdom, granted freedom of speech and the press, while the prince's power was reduced.

One of proofs for what I write are women's right and gender equality. Women in Serbia are very liberal and free. They can do what they want. Serbia is in company with Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland by highest women rights standards:

...
Of course, it can always be better. One smaller part of society harder to accept different sexual orientation, but resistance is less and less.

My opinion is that too conservative society hampers progress and hinders changes. Therefore, there are countries in which I could not live even though I was glad to see everything and go around.

 

[Boreas]

Boreas
But new see routes is not good explanation. Destruction was within empire and not caused by outside. Just the thought of the Ottoman Empire among European people evoked the backwardness

as I said neihter religion is a good explanation. Of course there are external and internal factor on destruction and I am not the one who underestimate the external factors. Both were effective.

One of proofs for what I write are women's right and gender equality. Women in Serbia are very liberal and free. They can do what they want. Serbia is in company with Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland by highest women rights standards:

If gender equality symbol of modernisation, yes Serbia is modern country

but

If rape istatistic symbol of modernisation, Serbia is Afghanestan in Europe

 

[Garrick]

Boreas
Statistics is precise in Serbia about rape, unlike some other countries where women are afraid to report.

But it is much more important standards of women rights.

Once women realize freedom they trying to save and empower.

According to Global Gender Gap Index Turkey is at the lowest level Global gender equality.

If we look at this data taking this criterion Turkey is not Western country.

One of the key of free society is freedom of women.

 

[Garrick]

as I said neihter religion is a good explanation. Of course there are external and internal factor on destruction and I am not the one who underestimate the external factors. Both were effective.

Yes, surely mix of factors.

But religion is very important as Sile says, it was in essence this megastate, because Ottoman Empire was last Sunni Islam Caliphate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Caliphate

Young Turks, led by Attaturk were aware of what they have to confront, over all things face, to do the modern Turkish state.

And they and their heirs had some undisputed success, although people in the world blame them for nationalism - ways of resolving of Armenian issue, Greek issue, Kurdish issue etc.

 

[Arame]

One thing surprises me. Why Albanians so fervently defend Turkey?
Because You have problems with neighbours and You assume that Turkey will support Your cause?
But this mean You guys are going against the interests of Europe because You want an outsider state to intermingle into European politics.

 

[-RIFFIAN-]

One thing surprises me. Why Albanians so fervently defend Turkey?
Because You have problems with neighbours and You assume that Turkey will support Your cause?
But this mean You guys are going against the interests of Europe because You want an outsider state to intermingle into European politics.

European policies will screw you all anyway,asks the Greek government PM

The truth is that European policies intervene too much in the affairs of neighboring countries of the EU itself,the goal is to enslave the Muslim peoples, and apply something in these peoples that these peoples are not and have never been prepared to withstand,as in the case of my country, the EU or the so called European council wants and requests of my country that leaves the persecutions of gays and homos, then the EU to consider seeking the legalization of gay marriage in Morocco I think,and by change the EU promises more aid,or more money,can't get everything with money,would be more appropriate that the EU spends that money to feed hungry mouths there are in Europe and which are not few.

It is normal, Albania and Turkey are two countries that have much in common and shared interests, are you waiting a country such as Serbia comes one day and supports or defends Albania, of course not,a country such as Serbia only will wish liquidate Albania or enslave its population, as intend on getting with the despairing European policies.

 

[Arame]

RIFFIAN
Morocco is not part of EU. And You have the right to defend Yourself from European rules if You dislike them. Albania wants and dream to be part of European Community but reading this forum users it seems they don't give much about European internal politics.

are you waiting a country such as Serbia comes one day and supports or defends Albania, of course not,a country such as Serbia only will wish liquidate Albania

I am not sure Serbs want to liquidate Albania. Serbs have problems with Kosovo Albanians. But unlike Turks who killed most of Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks and other ethnic minorities Serbs didn't kill much Albanians. How many Albanians were killed by Serbs? If they had killed millions like Turks in the past, today surely they will not have any problem in Kosovo. Kosovo could be a pure Serbian territory.

P.S. BTW I notice that Albanians also attack Greece. So what harm did Greeks to them?

 

[Boreas]

Boreas
Statistics is precise in Serbia about rape, unlike some other countries where women are afraid to report.

Totally true. But this can just effects North African or Asian countries. Some of those countries even Turkey can be yellow or red. I don't think this is a true argument for Europe, so it doesn't change Serbia situations.

According to Global Gender Gap Index Turkey is at the lowest level Global gender equality.
If we look at this data taking this criterion Turkey is not Western country.

I am not proud of women right in my country, but each data should be questioned well.

Global Gender Gap Index 2012. Now what we will say, Italy and Greece are North African counrtry