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Immigration What should Europeans do with illegal immigrants?

Australia may be wealthy, but it is is also headed for environmental collapse due to desertification and mismanagement of the land.

Having said this, Tony Abbot is behaving like a complete moron with the current situation. I find it absolutely hypocritical when leaders of immigrant nations are against immigration (its the same with the whole dirt throwing done by one Donald Trump in the United States).



Traditionally, Australia has treated its own natives very badly, completely with the routine of "take away their children and re-educate them as good Christians".

Amen, Amen, Amen. :)

I'm no supporter of just throwing the borders open and allowing absolutely uncontrolled migrations across national borders, but Donald Trump is a...well, I'm a lady, so I can't say exactly what I think of him, but megalomaniac, misogynist idiot will do for starters. This is a case study of how a man who got left a company and millions of dollars now thinks he's a self made man who rose to his present heights because of his brilliance. His major skill is self-marketing. He's a showman whose knowledge of foreign and domestic policy is less deep than that of a high school student.

I never thought I'd see the day that America would become enamored of its very own Berlusconi. I am pinning my hopes on the fact that it's a summer fling and people will come to their senses. I fear that the level of education and information is declining so much, and that people have become so disenchanted with the ineptitude of public servants that they will "protest" vote.

As for his stance on immigration, as I said, I don't think we can absorb all of Latin America. I don't believe in sanctuary cities. The laws have to be enforced, and the Obama administration is deliberately not enforcing them.

On the other hand, there is no way, NONE, that the American people, Republican or Democrat, will tolerate trucks coming to get eleven million undocumented aliens, women and children among them, some born here, and shipping them back across the border. It won't happen. This is just demagoguery at its worst.

Ed. Plus, a good number of those 11 million people are indeed working, even if some of them also get some assistance. The economic disruption would be enormous.
 
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Indeed. And, by the way, except for "Christians", this is also what the left is currently doing everywhere in the world.

Re-educating people and enforcing equality. Because they hate human differences.

If Australian Aborigines are good hunter-gatherers, and WANT to be hunter-gatherers, let them be hunter-gatherers, instead of whining why there are comparatively fewer Aboriginal professors than White professors, and that this must be due to some invisible institutional racism and White privilege, so we must kill Whiteys and establish affirmative action to fill University chairs with foragers.

Gradually over time, Aborigines who want it, will start doing something different, an Aboriginal middle class will evolve. But it can't be done by force. And the left should stop telling them, that the reason why they are stuck in their hunter-gatherer mindset, is some invisible institutional racism, or White privilege. They can't blame Whiteys for all this. They've always been living as foragers.

I'm a supporter of ensuring equality of opportunities for everyone. But the modern left has gone insane - not only do they want equality of outcomes (rather than just of opportunities), but even more, they now actually want identicality of outcomes.

They would establish ethnicity-based, geneder-based, etc.-based quotas for everything, if only they could.


I actually agree with a good part of this, but then you lose me.

No, there absolutely should not be ethnicity based or gender based quotas for jobs or education slots or anything else. I don't want to go to a heart surgeon who got his degree through affirmative action. Nor do I want a fire department where women become firefighters who don't have the strength to carry a 200 hundred pound man if need be.

On the other hand, some people are racists, and some men are misogynists (Please don't tell me there aren't, because I've been working in a male dominated field or at least what used to be a male dominated field all my life. I could write a book. :) There have to be safeguards in place to guarantee that everyone is indeed getting a fair shot.

You lose me on the rest. NO ONE wants to be disenfranchised. NO ONE wants to be discriminated against. NO ONE wants to be poor and uneducated. There's an absolute gulf between taking children away from their parents to change their language and religion and cultural heritage, and building schools for them in their neighborhoods wherever they might live.

I'm afraid some Europeans, especially those from homogeneous countries, opine on things going on in the U.S. which they do not at all understand. The reason that the Democrats here in the U.S.so often get elected is because they promise increased government spending for the, among other things, better schools and libraries that Blacks, and Hispanics, and Native Americans DEMAND for their children. The fact that money alone won't solve all the problems is another issue.

Oh, and Native Americans don't, in my experience, any longer want to go back to being hunter-gatherers. They just don't know how to mesh their "tribal" mentality with a modern existence. They're also so mired in depression and alcoholism because of their history that they're trapped in this sort of no man's land.

A mother living in a ghetto in Detroit, or a reservation out west, or a barrio in Los Angeles loves her children just like I do, and wants the best for them, wants them to become educated enough to hold down a decent job and live a decent life. She may not know how to combat her life circumstances to get that for her children, but that's what the majority of them want. If people had actually had any experience with these communities, they would know that.

At the end of the day, Tomenable, we're all people, people with the same feelings, the same needs, the same strengths and the same weaknesses, regardless of the color of our skins or our different religions and cultures.
 
Angela said:
NO ONE wants to be poor and uneducated.

I don't agree. Of course no one wants to be starving, thirsty and without a safe home/shelter.

But it's not true that all people want to have a lot of money and want to be well educated. These are values that are not so universal to humanity as many people in the West think. Being filthy rich and well-educated are definitely Western values and Western societies measure "equality" by measuring household net worth and salaries, and degrees. By applying such measures they of course discover inequalities, and then try to explain why they exist. Here democrats and republicans have distinct explanations.

Angela said:
better schools and libraries that Blacks, and Hispanics, and Native Americans DEMAND for their children.

Then give them public education and public libraries - I'm all for it. I generally support basic level of "socialism". But then you will find people who complain, that there is no equality because there are families who send their children to private schools. Such people want to ban private schools and force everyone to send their children to public schools - The Young Turks, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx_4svbYaDE


Total equality is impossible unless we want to bring everybody down to "level zero":

"In order for equality to prevail, we need first to trample everyone into the fecal matter" - Janusz Szpotanski

Angela said:
Oh, and Native Americans don't, in my experience, any longer want to go back to being hunter-gatherers. They just don't know how to mesh their "tribal" mentality with a modern existence. They're also so mired in depression and alcoholism because of their history that they're trapped in this sort of no man's land.
Yes, their old world collapsed and they can't find a place for themselves in the new world.

The same thing affected other primitive aboriginal societies around the world, including Tasmanians:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4381154;view=1up;seq=104

Tasmanians.png
 


I don't agree. Of course no one wants to be starving, thirsty and without a safe home/shelter.

But it's not true that all people want to have a lot of money and want to be well educated. These are values that are not so universal to humanity as many people in the West think. Being filthy rich and well-educated are definitely Western values and Western societies measure "equality" by measuring household net worth and salaries, and degrees. By applying such measures they of course discover inequalities, and then try to explain why they exist. Here democrats and republicans have distinct explanations.



Then give them public education and public libraries - I'm all for it. I generally support basic level of "socialism". But then you will find people who complain, that there is no equality because there are families who send their children to private schools. Such people want to ban private schools and force everyone to send their children to public schools - The Young Turks, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx_4svbYaDE


I'm afraid you're putting words in my mouth. I never said most people want to be "filthy" rich, although believe me, a lot of people do want it.

What I said was...
"A mother living in a ghetto in Detroit, or a reservation out west, or a barrio in Los Angeles loves her children just like I do, and wants the best for them, wants them to become educated enough to hold down a decent job and live a decent life.

We're no longer living in a world where you can earn a decent salary working in a factory or a small farm, not in the U.S. at least. Those factories and small farms have largely closed down. Most parents don't want to see their children having to live on minimum wage from working in a McDonalds for their whole lives, worrying if they should pay the electric bill or the rent, and trying to make the food money last the whole month. The only way to increase the chance that they won't have to live hand to mouth in that way is to try to see that they get some education and/or training beyond just literacy and simple math. This is so obvious that I can't believe I have to say it.

Of course there are going to be extreme viewpoints expressed by both those on the far left and the far right. That's why people from those extremes should never be elected to public office. I personally try not to associate with either variety.

Anyway, this is far afield from what to do about refugees from war torn lands or even more so from religious or racial genocide.

One shouldn't confuse the processes and laws which should apply to economic migration versus those which should apply to people fleeing from genocide.

I see absolutely no reason why the U.S. or Europe should deny visas to at least some people fleeing the disaster in the Middle East. Certainly, the Christians there can pose no possible security threat, and they are the most educated group in that area. Most importantly, they are fleeing from GENOCIDE and sexual slavery. The Yazidis likewise. Are they supposed to be treated the same as possible ISIS members or men from Afghanistan fleeing poverty? Am I supposed to believe that Europe, the home of humanism, is going to deny refuge to fourteen year old girls who have been abducted and made into sex slaves? Or is it that for some people the determining factor is that they are "darker" than most Europeans, or have the wrong type of nose or something?

As to the Afghanis and whoever else is trying to use this crisis to hitch a ride into Europe for purely economic reasons, that is a different matter. Europe has to come together and formulate a rational policy for how many economic immigrants it can reasonably absorb.

The Muslim refugees from the Middle East are again a different issue. As many of them as possible should be helped in the Middle East, because I don't know if the west is capable of vetting them for ties to extremism. I'm sure in some cases it's obvious however, that they are innocents caught up in this madness.

The real problem, and here I'm sure I'll be met by a firestorm, is that the U.S. has abdicated its leadership in world affairs, leaving a huge vacuum that the Russians and the Chinese are happy to try to fill (See how you guys like dominance by them...the Russians during WWII raped all the women they could get their hands on, and stole everything that wasn't nailed down. Even today, they're ruled by some combination of criminal Mafia types and ex KGB apparatchiks, and the treatment of any minority,including homosexuals, is appalling). The Europeans are too fractured along "ethnic" or national lines to present a united front, have lost the will to act, and are incapable of organizing themselves out of a paper bag.

On the part of the U.S. I don't know whether it's the result of the stupidity, cowardice, or brainwashing of our current leaders with the, yes, far left ideology that America is the problem, when it is often the only solution. And yes, yes, I know that it turned out that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction (there's our great C1A and great British and French Intelligence again), and George Bush, like Woodrow Wilson, gave people in other parts of the world way too much credit. Some people really aren't ready for democracy, and that applies to some areas of Europe, too. The fact remains, that having broken it we had an obligation to stay in Iraq with at least minimal forces. Our feckless president either doesn't or won't understand that, and the European nations are in the same boat. They want to spend all their money on social services and take a months vacation in the summer, which doesn't leave much to defend themselves.

This human wave is going to get worse. If you don't want to be inundated then get off your collective butts and organize a military response to ISIS, hopefully without ground troops, but if there's no other way then that's what will have to be done. That's the only way that these noncombatants will stay there. Even spending lots of money on aid in the region itself isn't going to halt it. Just accept reality. Either spend the money there and stem it both by military action and humanitarian efforts or spend even more in the long run on welfare for millions of migrants. Needless to say, for those concerned about it, it would change Europe culturally forever.

Sometimes I do indeed wish I had been born a man. I'd quite relish being a Navy Seal and blowing the beejesus out of those monsters. Oh, and we were talking about weapons on another thread. Just let's imagine that money was allocated so that every woman in the Near East had a gun and was trained to use it. One well placed bullet and that's one less man who will ever rape a woman again.
 
these amounts are peanuts compared to the European budget for next year, just for housing and basics needs of the refugees coming in today
much more costs will follow

it is much more peanut compared to Kuwait oil revenues
I agree, these are not huge sums, and more could be done. This was posted against myths some of guys here are spreading that Arab or Golf States are doing nothing. On contrary, Arab countries are doing more than anyone in the world to help Syrians. They house millions of refugees and spent billions of dollars.
 
well, there are 7 billion people in the world, and most of them are in need
maybe Europe should host a few billion?
Ask Jesus.
 
Of these 7 billion, 3 billion make less than 2 dollars a day, and another 2.6 billion live in countries poorer than Mexico.

The USA reluctantly takes relatively rich Mexicans in, when there are 5.6 billion people more in need than Mexicans !!!

Perhaps Mexicans themselves should host refugees in their homes, rather than fleeing to the US from their rich country.
Give them few more decades and they will help for sure. This situation is fluent.


Don't they have Australian Aborigines? I'm sure they are more suited to live as nomads in Australian desert than anyone else.
But did the government allow them to continue their traditional nomadic way of life?
I used sarcasm against your remark, how big a country Australia is. Mostly a desert where even Aborigines don't want to live.

As far as I know, that was not the case.
Check again, they have more rights and freedoms than typical Australian, same with Natives in Canada.
 
well, there are 7 billion people in the world, and most of them are in need
maybe Europe should host a few billion?
Now you created a problem which doesn't exist. Are they all coming now?
Even Syrians were not coming to Europe before a terrible war and ISIS kicked them out off their homes. People rather stay in places where they are born, even the poor ones, unless something terrible happens.
Perhaps putting European boots on the ground to destroy ISIS and dictator Assad wasn't such bad idea?
 
Qaddafi invited a lot Africans from the south in Libya.
 
These people claim to be Libyan refugees: https://i.imgur.com/hRIfSTr.jpg

hRIfSTr.jpg


Sure, they look Libyan as hell... :confused2: Nothing West African about them! :laughing:
If you read carefully you would notice that they don't claim to be Libyans. They say they were victims of bombing of Libya. Am I right?
Gaddafi employed many black Africans. When his regime fell, these black guys ended without jobs. They are right with their statement.

I see educated and brave young man, dressed in Western clothing and passionate about Europe. Who do you see?
 
I agree, these are not huge sums, and more could be done. This was posted against myths some of guys here are spreading that Arab or Golf States are doing nothing. On contrary, Arab countries are doing more than anyone in the world to help Syrians. They house millions of refugees and spent billions of dollars.

whatever ..
 
If you read carefully you would notice that they don't claim to be Libyans. They say they were victims of bombing of Libya. Am I right?
Gaddafi employed many black Africans. When his regime fell, these black guys ended without jobs. They are right with their statement.

I see educated and brave young man, dressed in Western clothing and passionate about Europe. Who do you see?

I see ever more swarms arriving in Europe with people who are told manna falls from heaven there
 
I see ever more swarms arriving in Europe with people who are told manna falls from heaven there

look this
you can easily estimate after that



http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html


besides the island majors and the police officers estimate that until end of 2016 that number will be 3 000 000
while Turkey officials give it 2 000 000
only EU Frontex estimates 800 000



AND THE AMAZING IS THAT EVEN HONORARY CONSULS ARE CONNECTED WITH TRAFFICKING
 
If you read carefully you would notice that they don't claim to be Libyans. They say they were victims of bombing of Libya.

Off course they say that. It would grant them permits. Possibly these signs weren't even written by them, but by extreme-leftist support groups.


Am I right?

We have proven you wrong on so many occasions that I find this question highly amusing.

Gaddafi employed many black Africans. When his regime fell, these black guys ended without jobs. They are right with their statement.

No. Nothing like that is proven.

I see educated and brave young man, dressed in Western clothing and passionate about Europe. Who do you see?

Educated?

If the school results of neighbouring countries - assuming that they are Libyans, as you so valiantly believe - are an indication they are most probably not:

http://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Screenshot-2015-09-12-04.39.15.png
 
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Gaddafi employed many black Africans. When his regime fell, these black guys ended without jobs. They are right with their statement.

This is actually a very telling statement. We all know nothing of these people. We know, however, that far left groups organizes protests of asylum seekers. We also know that a enormous amount of lies are told in asylum applications. There are a lot of asylum lawyers that are affiliated with leftist movements that "help" these asylum seekers. So, while on the basis of this picture we can not be sure of who these people are - They could even be actors, we simply don't know - the case for a skeptical approach towards the claims these men make is rather good. And still LeBrok claims these people "are right". He doesn't say that they could possibly be right. No, he simply states they are right.

Stunning.
 
Here is another example of bad Muslim Arabs helping refugees more than Europeans:

Egyptian billionaire is buying an island to settle and help refugees. Imagine this guys! Greedy rich Arab is sharing his wealth, with poor desperate refugees! You wouldn't predict this in a million years!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...-island-for-refugees_55f48e37e4b077ca094f5abc
55f491732c00003600aaf988.jpeg
Egyptian telecommunications magnate Naguib Sawiris is providing new details about his plan to buy an island shelter for hundreds of thousands of refugees trying to reach Europe.">
 
What I find rather telling is is what can be read on the signs: "We are here and we will not go back". That means if a judge would rule they should not be granted asylum they most probably would not leave.

This doesn't stop a number of activists. They keep campaigning to have them admitted with the result that the Netherlands allowed for 26.000 illegals to stay. Getting permits and applying for citizenship. Lying actually pays off.

This sounds all very nice, but it simply adds to the narrative that Europe welcomes all migrants and manna indeed falls from heaven. And it is that narrative that brings people to actually cross the mediterranean. More than 2800 people drowned this year. The activists kill a lot of people.
 
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