Immigration Ban the burka?

[gyms]

"...the anti-Islam fabricated propaganda in the West..."
Could you please specify which "anti-Islam fabricated propaganda" are you referring to?

 

[Fire Haired14]

Of the Muslims I've encountered, if anything the moms run things. I don't see sexism. That could just be the ones I've seen and maybe I don't know what goes on when I'm not looking. I know much of what people say about the Islamic sexism is true. However no society could be overwhelmingly hateful towards women. They're sisters, friends, moms, and spouses. Why would men in any society literally hate women?

 

[Boreas]

No, it isn't.

Sometimes even their hands can't be seen.

The last one seems Niqab

Stop trying to excuse the inexcusable.

Sorry, not to be the one who clamp this comedy. Who many muslim in Europe wearing burqa and what this will solve, just a cheap populist action of right wings.

You're just reinforcing the ideas of those who are convinced Muslims have no business in Europe.

Are you one of those convinced people? By the way, my religion section is empty in my national ID, so go and find something else. But please don't use your imagination as you find different meanings in my words

What are you going to try to justify next, female mutilation? Oh, excuse me, female circumcision.

I guess, this is the second time I face your outrage. we have two ears and one mouth, my lady.

If you kindly asked me what I am thinking about it, I would probably answer you something like this Tuaereg

What is even more surprising is that even though the tribe has embraced Islam they have firmly held onto some of the customs that would not be acceptable to the wider Muslim world.
It is the men, and not the women, who cover their faces, for example.
Photographer Henrietta Butler, who has been fascinated by the Tuareg since she first followed them through the desert in 2001, once asked why this was. The explanation was simple.
'The women are beautiful. We would like to see their faces.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-men-want-beautiful-faces.html#ixzz3zVjD4tRA
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


But instead of listening and understanding...

 

[LeBrok]

First of all I want to say I'm against burqas. However, I guess if I was from a differnt culture it would make more sense.

IMO, women wearing burqas isn't about sexism. Saying it is sexism is looking at it through 21st century eyes. It is the result of a legalistic mind not sexist.

Imagine this.

This tradition started in patriarchal society farmers and herders. All rules were set by men, the king, the prophet, the tribe elders. All men and for the men. This is where sexism started.

There's a legalistic society of humans. These Human men and women are differnt in several ways, including sexuality. The issue of lustful, pedetoral men and sluttish, whorish women becomes an issue. So, Mr. Legalistic king insists all women wear burqas to keep women from being sluts and men from being tempted. Of course sexism can be argued and is very likely. But what I'm seeing is more so a legalistic thing than sexist.

In short men decided what women should wear. If you can't see it is sexist then you should reread the definition of sexism.

 

[Fire Haired14]

This tradition started in patriarchal society farmers and herders. All rules were set by men, the king, the prophet, the tribe elders. All men and for the men. This is where sexism started.

Like every other human society? Male leadership is the natural way for humans. So, therefore they were not a sexist society, unless you believe our DNA is sexist. I'm not a misogynist. I don't like a society were women are simply subservient or deemed stupid and incapable of leadership. Although I do go with what appears to be our instinct, which includes men usually taking the leadership position. Maybe old Islamic and or Arab society was overly male-lead and wrong, the way you describe it makes it seem it was.

In short men decided what women should wear. If you can't see it is sexist then you should reread the definition of sexism.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was conversation with women over the issue. IMO, it is impossible for Arab men to segregate themselves from women 24/7, they have interaction with women that isn't about service or sex. IMO, it's impossible for leadership and influence to have purely male sources.

But, mostly I agree with you it is sexist. It assumes women are all sluts and only women need to change to prevent adultery. And I agree it is wrong for men to decide what women do without much female's opinion.

 

[LeBrok]

This is the wrong understanding,the anti-Islam fabricated propaganda in the West,Muslims men do not treat their women as slaves or property,It's a matter of shared responsibility and duties between the two sexes,that man deals with,and is responsible of the application of a larger part of that responsibility,such responsibilities and duties coming of Islam,between the responsibility of women, respect their men and themselves when they leave their homes and pass in front of other men.

Hadith: (All of you are responsible for your subjects)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02SQZvTOOYg

In most Muslim cultures and specially the more religious ones:
1. Woman can't leave the house without male escort.
2. Woman can't inherit properties
3. Husband is arranged by others.
4. Woman needs to be covered from head to toes, in tradition clothing, often in burqa. Man on other hand can wear whatever he wants!
5. Her children belong to their father. In case of divorce man gets all the children when they are older than seven years.
6. Man can divorce woman easily, for woman it is almost impossible thing.
7. Man can beat his woman to force them to his will, but woman can't beat a man.

According to Islamic law, a husband may strike his wife for any one of the following four reasons:

- She does not attempt to make herself beautiful for him (ie. "let's herself go")
- She refuses to meet his sexual demands
- She leaves the house without his permission or for a "legitimate reason"
- She neglects her religious duties​

8. Woman always needs to do what husband or father requested, or she will be beaten or punished.
9. Honor killing of a woman is acceptable, but not honor killing of a man.

It is obvious that men is in control of his women, wife or daughter, he owns them. Very like owning a slave or protecting one's property.

Burka is exactly created to protect man's property. It is impossible to tell if under these heavy sacks, there are 5 young and gorgeous or 5 old and ugly woman. Why steal them and risk your life for this uncertainty? It was important way back when rich lord or vasir could take your wife or daughter at will to his harem.

 

[LeBrok]

Like every other human society? Male leadership is the natural way for humans. So, therefore they were not a sexist society, unless you believe our DNA is sexist. I'm not a misogynist. I don't like a society were women are simply subservient or deemed stupid and incapable of leadership. Although I do go with what appears to be our instinct, which includes men usually taking the leadership position. Maybe old Islamic and or Arab society was overly male-lead and wrong, the way you describe it makes it seem it was.

Either you like it or not all described above is defined as sexism. Don't argue with me but go and change the definition if you don't agree.

But, mostly I agree with you it is sexist. It assumes women are all sluts and only women need to change to prevent adultery. And I agree it is wrong for men to decide what women do without much female's opinion.

Yes, at least if men would undergo same strict regulation like women do, at least it would be equal for all and sort of just. I still wouldn't like this strict controlled society, definitely not my type of thing, but I wouldn't call it sexist, discriminatory, nor hypocritical.

 

[Sile]

In most Muslim cultures and specially the more religious ones:
1. Woman can't leave the house without male escort.
2. Woman can't inherit properties
3. Husband is arranged by others.
4. Woman needs to be covered from head to toes, in tradition clothing, often in burqa. Man on other hand can wear whatever he wants!
5. Her children belong to their father. In case of divorce man gets all the children when they are older than seven years.
6. Man can divorce woman easily, for woman it is almost impossible thing.
7. Man can beat his woman to force them to his will, but woman can't beat a man.

8. Woman always needs to do what husband or father requested, or she will be beaten or punished.
9. Honor killing of a woman is acceptable, but not honor killing of a man.

It is obvious that men is in control of his women, wife or daughter, he owns them. Very like owning a slave or protecting one's property.

Burka is exactly created to protect man's property. It is impossible to tell if under these heavy sacks, there are 5 young and gorgeous or 5 old and ugly woman. Why steal them and risk your life for this uncertainty? It was important way back when rich lord or vasir could take your wife or daughter at will to his harem.

or 5 men with weapons on them


or

5 hideous people that can turn you to stone if you look at them

but all I see is weakness and inequality in these 5

 

[-RIFFIAN-]

One thing we have to recognize guys, there are profound differences and misunderstanding between Islam and Christianity, so there are profound differences between the Muslim and Christian women, if Muslim men want to criticize Christian women, they have much to say (that It will be perceived as provocation), and the same for Christian men if they want to criticize Muslim women,each side defends his religion,and life goes on,no more to say.

 

[LeBrok]

One thing we have to recognize guys, there are profound differences and misunderstanding between Islam and Christianity, so there are profound differences between the Muslim and Christian women, if Muslim men want to criticize Christian women,

Nope, we didn't criticized Muslim women, we criticized Muslim men for treating their women like slaves and objects.

they have much to say (that It will be perceived as provocation), and the same for Christian men if they want to criticize Muslim women,each side defends his religion,and life goes on,no more to say.

Western world grew beyond religion to become free, inclusive, tolerant society. We stopped fighting and killing each other, and started cooperating for common good. Now we expect Muslims, generally speaking, to grow up and join the civilization. Stop killing each other, stop killing others, and stop treating your women like slaves.

This is generally speaking of course. I know few Muslims here in Canada and most are good people obeying the law and cherishing our freedoms.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Western world grew beyond religion to become free, inclusive, tolerant society. We stopped fighting and killing each other, and started cooperating for common good.ms.

Very sly move. "grew beyond religion", because in your mind religion=intolerance, stupidity, and violence. This is an oversimplification. Democracy or whatever is not atheism like you're trying to promote it as. Very bias interpretation.

 

[LeBrok]

Very sly move. "grew beyond religion", because in your mind religion=intolerance, stupidity, and violence. This is an oversimplification. Democracy or whatever is not atheism like you're trying to promote it as. Very bias interpretation.

We don't have state religion anymore, do we? Neither religion directs our politics, justice or economy. We have freedom of conscious, beliefs, religion or lack of beliefs. This is what I meant by growing beyond religion.

religion=intolerance, stupidity, and violence

That's right, the last war in Europe, in former Yugoslavia, was based in religious intolerance and violence against other ethnicities. In case of Serbs versus Bosnians religion makes ethnicity, otherwise they are exactly the same. You tell me how smart was this?

 

[Fire Haired14]

@Lebrok,

Religious freedom and tolerance is differnt from "moving beyond religion". Of course religion causes divide and fighting, because it is so controversial when faced with differnt religions and important to people. Hardly anyone disputes this. It's important, like a sports team, so people fight over it.

 

[bicicleur 2]

@Lebrok,

Religious freedom and tolerance is differnt from "moving beyond religion". Of course religion causes divide and fighting, because it is so controversial when faced with differnt religions and important to people. Hardly anyone disputes this. It's important, like a sports team, so people fight over it.

you mean like hooligans?

 

[Fire Haired14]

you mean like hooligans?

English-speakers in Europe call it that. In America we don't have a word for it. But, yeah you get the idea.

 

[Angela]

Boreas;475301]The last one seems Niqab

I know what it is. It still leaves you incapable of seeing properly, and breathing properly, and engaging in work outside the home, and it's still a mode of dress based on the concept that men are beasts incapable of controlling their sexual urges, and that women aren't to be trusted to be faithful if out of their father's or husband's sight in normal clothing.

Sorry, not to be the one who clamp this comedy. Who many muslim in Europe wearing burqa and what this will solve, just a cheap populist action of right wings.

It's not a question of how many women currently wear it in Europe. It's a question of how many will ultimately be wearing it given the birthrate for Muslims in Europe, and how that would change European culture. Even more, it's a question of what it represents, a symbol, if you will, of the attitudes and customs that the vast majority of Europeans don't want imported into their country, just as they don't want honor killings committed in their country, or girl children being denied an education, or underage girls being married off.

If people want to live in this way, with these customs, they should stay home. If you come to Europe to live, you have to adopt European mores.

Are you one of those convinced people? By the way, my religion section is empty in my national ID, so go and find something else. But please don't use your imagination as you find different meanings in my words

I haven't been, no, but when I see educated, self-defined irreligious men engage in this kind of silly attempt to justify an abusive custom, it makes me wonder if I'm kidding myself that this group of immigrants has any real commitment to assimilation.

I'll talk about what I know. I know that before the 90s, my family and my relatives in our small Italian towns used to be able to leave house and car doors unlocked, women and young children used to be able to take public transportation or walk anywhere, even late at night, with absolutely no fear, and other than an occasional whistle or "Ciao, Bella", some persistent offers to go have a coffee, and a stampede of men with lighters every time a woman tried to light a cigarette, I, and they, never felt in danger from Italian men.

All that has changed, even in small towns. Now, just walking out of the train or bus station makes many Italian women feel like they're running a gauntlet of obscene suggestions and gestures. In some cases, with Moroccans predominantly, it escalates to this encirclement and forced touching.
I'm told by my relatives that in the larger cities you can get pushed, and groped, and have your clothing torn because your attire isn't "modest" enough.

Am I saying that all Muslim immigrants behave in this fashion? No, I'm not, but enough of them do to ruin the reputation of the rest for a lot of people.

It doesn't help when educated men of Muslim background like yourself attempt to minimize the problems or justify customs which are just unacceptable in Europe.

There has got to be an acknowledgment on the part of these new immigrants of the fact that if they don't adopt western European mores they are going to have a very difficult time of it, and they might be much better off going home.

@Fire-Haired,
Sports fans of particular teams in the U.S., like Yankees fans or Giants fans, are completely different from, say, tifosi in Italy, who often have specific political affiliations or come from certain groups.

 

[Boreas]

I know what it is. It still leaves you incapable of seeing properly, and breathing properly, and engaging in work outside the home, and it's still a mode of dress based on the concept that men are beasts incapable of controlling their sexual urges, and that women aren't to be trusted to be faithful if out of their father's or husband's sight in normal clothing.

I am wondering that will we evolve this conversation to up level? Can we skip cultural bias form East or West?

Let's think about 3 case

An open haired woman in Saudi Arabia

A woman who wears very short skirt in Turkey or conservative East European Country

A woman who walks topless around Champs-Élysées to support the right of walking topless as men

The point is how we gonna decide? Which one is absurd?

It's not a question of how many women currently wear it in Europe. It's a question of how many will ultimately be wearing it given the birthrate for Muslims in Europe, and how that would change European culture. Even more, it's a question of what it represents, a symbol, if you will, of the attitudes and customs that the vast majority of Europeans don't want imported into their country, just as they don't want honor killings committed in their country, or girl children being denied an education, or underage girls being married off.

I don't know what kind of Europe are you dreaming?



Do you prefer 12 years old pregnent British girl who is left by his boyfriend or 16 years old marriaged Muslim girl who is pregnent?

It doesn't help when educated men of Muslim background like yourself attempt to minimize the problems or justify customs which are just unacceptable in Europe.

Does your way help? Our perspectives are completly different. You are just related with problems which were caused by refugees in Europe/West. I am thinking reason of their home loose.

There has got to be an acknowledgment on the part of these new immigrants of the fact that if they don't adopt western European mores they are going to have a very difficult time of it, and they might be much better off going home.

Cirlcle is getting smaller and smaller, firstly European mores, know Western Europeans. Then maybe just İtalian :grin:

 

[LeBrok]

I am wondering that will we evolve this conversation to up level? Can we skip cultural bias form East or West?

Let's think about 3 case

An open haired woman in Saudi Arabia

A woman who wears very short skirt in Turkey or conservative East European Country

A woman who walks topless around Champs-Élysées to support the right of walking topless as men

The point is how we gonna decide? Which one is absurd?

Good questions and many of us struggled with them at some point in life. We can also ask a question if this cultural element of covering our genitals and many parts of our body have any bearing on health of our society and morality in general. In tropical zones all tribes walk around naked for thousands and thousands of years and still are. I don't think, being naked in public is a destructive thing. If it were, these tribes would have vanished long time ago by means of natural selection or will of angry God(s).

I don't know what kind of Europe are you dreaming?

View attachment 7617

Yes, all Europe was like this. If we changed I'm sure Muslims can too.

Do you prefer 12 years old pregnent British girl who is left by his boyfriend

No adult in Europe will see it as a normal thing, though no matter what parents effort, some of teens will get pregnant. I don't think you will propose an honor killing to fix this problem? When you look at statistics this is a very rare scenario unlike:

or 16 years old marriaged Muslim girl who is pregnent?

which is a very common thing. I see two problems here, firstly the marriage is arranged which goes in face of personal freedoms and choice, and at the age in which nobody should make serious choices. At 16 she should be at school for her good and the development of the society.
One can look at it as a problem of scale. If there are just few marriages of young girls of school age, all it is going to affect are lives of these girls and their close families. If this is going on a big scale then all society is hurt. Imagine how many thousands of doctors, lawyers, scientists, business women, factory workers, etc is lost in a country. Everybody will suffer.

 

[Angela]

@Boreas,

I'm not at all following your logic. I don't see what's wrong with any of the three examples you cited. As to the third, in this country anyway that would be considered political speech and therefore protected by the First Amendment. Let her march bare breasted if she wants to protest something. I think most people have seen female breasts. Are they supposed to faint at the sight or something? There was a bit of a furor when Janet Jackson's breast popped out briefly at the Super Bowl a couple of years ago, but Americans are a little bit more prudish than Europeans, and plus it was during what's considered family hour. In Italy, Belen Rodriguez flashed everything, and she was a media sensation. If this kind of stuff would upset you, never go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. Young and not so young women are flashing their breasts all over the place. It's all part of the show. That in turn is nothing compared to Gay Pride Parades. I wouldn't let my children, if they were still young, go to them, but hey, if you're a consenting adult, do whatever floats your boat. As long as I don't have to participate, and they're not walking down a street in a residential, family neighborhood, it's always been fine by me.

I don't know why some people and some cultures are so uptight about the nude human body, especially beautiful nude human bodies. The rest should stay covered up. Maybe it's because I grew up with nude statues on every corner, and rather risque depictions of sexuality everywhere, but I don't get all this angst about it. It doesn't turn someone promiscuous if that's the concern. Far from it for women of my generation. Anyway, to return to my teachings of yesteryear, sexual sins, so long as there is no abuse of other people and certainly not of minors, are in the venial sins category as far as I'm concerned. It's just human nature.

You're also missing the bigger picture here. No matter how repugnant I might find the laws and customs in country X, I personally wouldn't feel it my right or duty to go to that country and try to change their customs without their consent. On the other hand, and I say this as an immigrant myself, if you go to live in country Y you have to abide by the laws of country Y. If you can't or won't do that, stay home. Your host country has no obligation to make itself over to suit you. So, whatever you may think of it, your girl children have to go to school, there's no marrying them off if they're underage, once they're of age they can date and marry whomever they choose, and if you God forbid beat or kill them you'll be punished to the full extent of the law.

Oh, as to your last comment, I meant Western and European, as pretty synonymous terms, not Western European versus Eastern European or anything like that.

As for your example of the pregnant 16 year old European single mother versus the married 16 year old in the Middle East, it's a false choice. Is it a good idea to get pregnant and try to raise a child when you're not married and haven't completed your education? Obviously not. Neither is it a good situation if you're married off as a minor to an unknown man years older than yourself and condemned to a life "barefoot and pregnant", some combination of brood mare and unpaid house servant and sex worker. Neither is "good", but at least in the first case the consequences are of the girl's own making; they weren't imposed upon her. What you're also ignoring is the third option, possible in western society but not in Muslim countries. There are plenty of young girls who go through high school, go on to college or further training, get a decently paying job, date, and then marry or partner with the man of their choice and with him decide to have and raise children. That's the model that girls should follow, and that's what most of them choose.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Hijab shouldn't be illegal. It's not that different from headscarves women used to wear in Slavic countries, Greece and elsewhere. Older women still wear it in those regions. Furthermore, moderm Muslim women have turned it to a fashion accesosry. We can reinforce these tendencies instead of adopting a strict stance.

Burka, niqab etc should be banned in Europe.