Immigration Ban the burka?

Basic human rights?Do you mean all "basic human rights"?

Michael Overd and two other Christian evangelists were arrested last year for sharing the gospel in Bristol.

Christian evangelist shares the story of his arrest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Nmfnf0yEY

Absolutely, I do. Anyone should have the right to preach their religion, their political ideas, whatever, in the public square. That's the basic right of free speech. In the U.S. the only limitation on it is that you can't be inciting violence or advocating it, or the destruction of property.

The only people in that video who should be arrested are in the crowd if they are threatening him with violence.

How I wish I were admitted to the Bar in Europe.

You do realize that under the law as promulgated by the EU, Christians can't wear a cross, Jews can't wear the Star of David, Orthodox Jews can't wear a skull cap, or Sikhs their turbans? People can't wear a lapel pin signifying their political party. If this were the U.S. and March 17th, not 15th, employees couldn't come into work wearing a lapel pin of the Irish flag, or wear a button that says "Happy Saint Patrick's Day", or "Kiss Me: I'm Irish"?
the-office-st-patricks-day-6.jpg


I think Europeans, both left and right, are losing their collective minds, and I'm afraid it may spread here too.
 
"You do realize that under the law as promulgated by the EU, Christians can't wear a cross, Jews can't wear the Star of David, Orthodox Jews can't wear a skull cap, or Sikhs their turbans?"

Exactly.This is the left's PC hypocrisy.Disgusting.
 
Hijab shouldn't be illegal. It's not that different from headscarves women used to wear in Slavic countries, Greece and elsewhere. Older women still wear it in those regions. Furthermore, moderm Muslim women have turned it to a fashion accesosry. We can reinforce these tendencies instead of adopting a strict stance.

Burka, niqab etc should be banned in Europe.

you should look at this BBC production of late 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPMocsqHnDo

and realise all types of headresses for women was a system to suppress the equality of women to men. Before this headress rules, men and women where equal.
The forcing of headresses for women is written in the 280 Babylonian laws 4000 years ago ( held in museum ) and eventually adopted by patriarchal religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they emerged.

All headresses should be banned if you want a society of gender equality............there is no choice


by the way the program is a 4 part one..........I just gave you the first part
 
Private companies are fully within their rights to enforce a dress code. Your rights to freedom of speech and religion do not override your contract with your employer. The EU court got it right this time.
 
Why should any government anywhere be telling anyone what they can or cannot wear on their face? The burka offends you? Then don't wear one. Should men be forcing women to wear things they don't want to wear? Absolutely not. But they shouldn't be dictating what they CAN'T wear either. The freedom of the individual comes first--always--so long as the exercise of that freedom does not impinge on the freedom of others.
 
Why should any government anywhere be telling anyone what they can or cannot wear on their face? The burka offends you? Then don't wear one. Should men be forcing women to wear things they don't want to wear? Absolutely not. But they shouldn't be dictating what they CAN'T wear either. The freedom of the individual comes first--always--so long as the exercise of that freedom does not impinge on the freedom of others.

Because it is written in the first laws of man that veils and all headresses where established to ensure women are looked at as second class people , inferior to men............it was renewed when religions began, ie, judasism, Christianity and Islam and again re-enforce by suleiman the magnificent in the 15th/16th centuries when ruling the Ottoman empire.

All should be removed IF you believe in Gender equality...........if you do not then just say so
 
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All should be removed IF you believe in Gender equality...........if you do not then just say so

I believe in the right of each individual human being to decide these things for his or her self. To say or imply that a belief in individual human rights is tantamount to misogyny is not only ludicrous, but downright disgusting.
 
I believe in the right of each individual human being to decide these things for his or her self. To say or imply that a belief in individual human rights is tantamount to misogyny is not only ludicrous, but downright disgusting.

you did not answer the question
 
Why should any government anywhere be telling anyone what they can or cannot wear on their face? The burka offends you? Then don't wear one. Should men be forcing women to wear things they don't want to wear? Absolutely not. But they shouldn't be dictating what they CAN'T wear either.
They are dictated what to wear by religions leaders, family traditions and family upbringing, conservative communities, ostracization or even honor killing etc.
To put this thing in perspective:
If not government laws and regulations, against firm opposition and civil war, there might have been slavery till today. Now nobody even wants to consider it. Was it a bad decision by US government?

If wearing a burka is a free choice, and a thing what women want to wear, we would have face coverings incorporated in wester fashion already. But we don't. Somehow it never did get popular, and it is in neglect since middle ages when married noble women veiled their faces in public, in Europe. Still till this day in Eastern and South Europe old generation of women will never go to church without head covering. They don't know why it is so at first place, but they do it because it is a tradition, because it is improper. Look at catholic nuns, this is how it used to be in Europe for every women. Cover, cover, cover your sinful body.



The freedom of the individual comes first--always--so long as the exercise of that freedom does not impinge on the freedom of others.
I agree, but first we have to shake off the old enslaving traditions, free the mind. Then we can make a FREE choice.
 
I agree, but first we have to shake off the old enslaving traditions, free the mind. Then we can make a FREE choice.

Agreed. But paternalistic legislation--at best--only swaps a blatant, medieval form of patriarchy for a more subtle, modern form of patriarchy. Either way, it's men in power telling women at large what they must or must not wear. A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. So let's stop pretending it's a sheep.

Who here has read The Alphabet Versus the Goddess?
 
Agreed. But paternalistic legislation--at best--only swaps a blatant, medieval form of patriarchy for a more subtle, modern form of patriarchy. Either way, it's men in power telling women at large what they must or must not wear. A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. So let's stop pretending it's a sheep.
Considering the fact that our liberated women take part in our democracy and legislation, it is hardly paternalistic anymore. Though, a point could be made that men are still big majority as parliamentarians and presidents, therefore somewhat paternalistic. Anyway, my point was that in these special cases we need to cut ourselves off the crippling traditions in drastic fashion.
 
All should be removed IF you believe in Gender equality...........if you do not then just say so

How do you define "gender equality" other than equality of rights? Those of us against burka bans support the rights of both men and women to choose their clothing, so such rights are equal.
 
They are dictated what to wear by religions leaders, family traditions and family upbringing, conservative communities, ostracization...

Do you disagree that these are all rights afforded to the individuals who make up these communities? I mean, do you want to put in any bans on the Amish for similar practices?

...or even honor killing etc.

This is tangential. Presumably, everybody here supports bans on threats of honor killings, regardless of why they happen.

To put this thing in perspective:
If not government laws and regulations, against firm opposition and civil war, there might have been slavery till today. Now nobody even wants to consider it. Was it a bad decision by US government?

Slavery isn't remotely comparable, because slavery was the complete removal of natural rights from a group of people. Eliminating slavery increased natural rights. Banning the burka decreases them by removing the right to select one's own clothing.

If wearing a burka is a free choice, and a thing what women want to wear, we would have face coverings incorporated in wester fashion already.

LOL, why? Are you arguing now that the burka is tied to religious traditions, and isn't strictly cultural? You know that such an argument will imply that banning the burka is against freedom of religion?
 
Do you disagree that these are all rights afforded to the individuals who make up these communities? I mean, do you want to put in any bans on the Amish for similar practices?



This is tangential. Presumably, everybody here supports bans on threats of honor killings, regardless of why they happen.



Slavery isn't remotely comparable, because slavery was the complete removal of natural rights from a group of people. Eliminating slavery increased natural rights. Banning the burka decreases them by removing the right to select one's own clothing.



LOL, why? Are you arguing now that the burka is tied to religious traditions, and isn't strictly cultural? You know that such an argument will imply that banning the burka is against freedom of religion?


Sparkey At Europe some kind of hair cap or skull cap as you like are baned by law, due to possible terrorist clothing custom connection,
in my country if yoy make a simple roberry, you go for roberry,
if you wear a skull cap at the roberry you go to court for terrorism,
same with scarf a muffler.
in Europe all courts have certain laws/codes of dressing from medieval times,
would you accept to be your shelf be judged by burka wearer at court judge?
 
Do you disagree that these are all rights afforded to the individuals who make up these communities? I mean, do you want to put in any bans on the Amish for similar practices?
I would in some extreme case, though I'm not too versed in Amish traditions.

This is tangential. Presumably, everybody here supports bans on threats of honor killings, regardless of why they happen.
This is one of consequences to exercise a free will of not wearing Burka. I listed quite few and I'm sure the list could be even longer. Did you consider that not everybody is strongly ideological like you and I to sacrifice a lot for our believes, to stand up and say no in face of harsh consequences, to express our thoughts in coherent way, to be brave, etc? Most people will comply when enough pressure is exerted for a piece of mind. Some will start even believing that this is right thing to do for a piece, for family love, or to be accepted in community.
It still baffles me where you see a free choice in it?



Slavery isn't remotely comparable, because slavery was the complete removal of natural rights from a group of people. Eliminating slavery increased natural rights. Banning the burka decreases them by removing the right to select one's own clothing.
How about a consequences of choices? A slave was "always free" to make a choice not to go to work today, not to serve the master, use their own legs to walk out off property, or their mouth to say no. Did they chose to do that? Hardly. We know some examples of slaves exercising their free will with dire consequences for their health and life. Majority complied with master's will every day to avoid these harsh consequences, right?
Same with saying no to Burka.


LOL, why? Are you arguing now that the burka is tied to religious traditions, and isn't strictly cultural? You know that such an argument will imply that banning the burka is against freedom of religion?
You missed my point completely. Argument was that if western women (the most free in the world) don't want to wear Burka, therefore Burka is a very unnatural, undesirable, ugly, piece of wardrobe for women. Western women know that burka exist and they can buy it and wear it any time. And it never happened! I say, it never ever happened! Women only wear it if they are forced to, period.

There is no free choice being exercised here. Your argument for a freedom of free choice is a moot point.
 
you should look at this BBC production of late 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPMocsqHnDo

and realise all types of headresses for women was a system to suppress the equality of women to men. Before this headress rules, men and women where equal.
The forcing of headresses for women is written in the 280 Babylonian laws 4000 years ago ( held in museum ) and eventually adopted by patriarchal religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they emerged.

All headresses should be banned if you want a society of gender equality............there is no choice


by the way the program is a 4 part one..........I just gave you the first part

I don't have time to waste.
 
This is one of consequences to exercise a free will of not wearing Burka. I listed quite few and I'm sure the list could be even longer. Did you consider that not everybody is strongly ideological like you and I to sacrifice a lot for our believes, to stand up and say no in face of harsh consequences, to express our thoughts in coherent way, to be brave, etc? Most people will comply when enough pressure is exerted for a piece of mind. Some will start even believing that this is right thing to do for a piece, for family love, or to be accepted in community.
It still baffles me where you see a free choice in it?

Freedom never means freedom from consequences, for anybody. A lot of people from conservative Christian communities, for example, make the difficult decision to remove themselves from the communities, get shunned, and have to find themselves new support groups. I'm absolutely comfortable with such support groups, which are becoming easier and easier with the Internet. They're an effective, voluntary way to break the social pressure you speak of. Why do you think that a ban on a type of clothing will be effective in the same way at all? Imagine that you're in such a situation, on the brink of making the decision to escape from it. Voluntary support groups would, as you probably agree, be the first place you would look. But how could the clothing police help you at all?

How about a consequences of choices? A slave was "always free" to make a choice not to go to work today, not to serve the master, use their own legs to walk out off property, or their mouth to say no. Did they chose to do that? Hardly. We know some examples of slaves exercising their free will with dire consequences for their health and life. Majority complied with master's will every day to avoid these harsh consequences, right?
Same with saying no to Burka.

No, it's still not a valid analogy. Slaves were necessarily threatened by force and had no rights. When slavery was abolished, none fought to keep it. Burka wearers have rights to wear or not wear them. There may be social pressure, but not necessarily force (and when there is force, the force is the problem, not the garment). Banning them would face resistance from the burka wearers themselves.

You missed my point completely. Argument was that if western women (the most free in the world) don't want to wear Burka, therefore Burka is a very unnatural, undesirable, ugly, piece of wardrobe for women. Western women know that burka exist and they can buy it and wear it any time. And it never happened! I say, it never ever happened! Women only wear it if they are forced to, period.

There is no free choice being exercised here. Your argument for a freedom of free choice is a moot point.

"If western women don't want to wear Burka, therefore... Women only wear it if they are forced to." Is that what your argument boils down to? So if western men don't wear Buddhist monk robes, therefore Buddhist monks are being forced to wear them? The fashions of a particular cultural group has very little to say about whether or not people of another group are being forced to wear clothing that has value in their own culture, especially if, as I suggested, the clothing has religious implications.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Islam has a problem with overbearing censorship, oppressiveness, and even violence. These are problems which must be addressed, but not with a burka ban. One of my suggestions to combat it is to open the free speech floodgates--so that young Muslims can see exactly how their religion, especially conservative forms of it, fare in the open marketplace of ideas.
 

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