Immigration Ban the burka?

[tahir0010]

Yes the women being forced to wear hijab argument has been destroyed thousands of times by scholars not just of the islamic faith, but of the non islamic faith also. Most women are not forced to wear hijab. Yes in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan you are forced to wear hijab, but that is three countries out of 49 Islamic majority countries. Are women forced to wear hijab in Turkey no actually they were forced by secularism to take it off. Is that not oppression? Are women forced to wear hijab in Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Jordan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Iraq, Kuwait, United Arab Emirate, Qatar, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Dagestan, Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo and so forth there are too many to name. No they are not forced, and ACTUALLY MORE WOMEN DO NOT WEAR HIJAB THEN WOMEN ACTUAL WEAR HIJAB. I agree with hijab, and I do not think that it is anyones right to dictate what someone does and does not wear. That is ruining the peoples right to choose what they want in a free society. Most women who wear hijab do so out of there own free will, and not because they are forced. In my university we have girls who wear hijab, and girls who do not. Even some girls wear hijab, but there sister does not. So how is it forced? Should nuns also take off there burqa? Should orthodox nuns take off there head scarf and burqa? Should Ultra Orthodox Jews take off there burqa, and actually some Orthodox women wear full face veil.... Then you can say well its for safety... Okay far enough should America start banning white kids from school sense almost 90% of schools shootings are done by white kids. No that would be a ridiculous statement would it not? So this argument is bigoted, and absolutely ridiculous. Turkey a country with 99% muslim has had 7 women heads of state, and actually muslim countries have more women in parliament then most western countries, and you want to sit here, and tell me its a sign of oppression please. Stop.. A women wearing hijab does not effect your daily life, just as a women who chooses to wear shorts does not effect mine. Roberto Maroni has strongly refused to sign on a decree banning the Islamic female headscarf, known as hijab. "If the Virgin Mary appears[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] wearing a veil on all her pictures, how can you ask me to sign on a hijab ban law?” this is well said. [/FONT]

 

[LeBrok]

Yes the women being forced to wear hijab argument has been destroyed thousands of times by scholars not just of the islamic faith, but of the non islamic faith also. Most women are not forced to wear hijab. Yes in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan you are forced to wear hijab, but that is three countries out of 49 Islamic majority countries. Are women forced to wear hijab in Turkey no actually they were forced by secularism to take it off. Is that not oppression? Are women forced to wear hijab in Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Jordan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Iraq, Kuwait, United Arab Emirate, Qatar, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Dagestan, Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo and so forth there are too many to name. No they are not forced, and ACTUALLY MORE WOMEN DO NOT WEAR HIJAB THEN WOMEN ACTUAL WEAR HIJAB. I agree with hijab, and I do not think that it is anyones right to dictate what someone does and does not wear. That is ruining the peoples right to choose what they want in a free society. Most women who wear hijab do so out of there own free will, and not because they are forced. In my university we have girls who wear hijab, and girls who do not.

Explain please, why European woman or Chinese or Japanese women don't want to wear hijab of burqa? I'm sure they have a choice to wear what they want. To my knowledge they are more free than women in Saudi Arabia for example, who can't even choose to drive a car of vote.

Even some girls wear hijab, but there sister does not. So how is it forced? Should nuns also take off there burqa? Should orthodox nuns take off there head scarf and burqa? Should Ultra Orthodox Jews take off there burqa, and actually some Orthodox women wear full face veil.... Then you can say well its for safety...

Really, you give us of Orthodox Jews women in veils, as example of choice for women? I "love" your argumentation. Hopefully, sparkey will read this.

Okay far enough should America start banning white kids from school sense almost 90% of schools shootings are done by white kids. No that would be a ridiculous statement would it not? So this argument is bigoted, and absolutely ridiculous. Turkey a country with 99% muslim has had 7 women heads of state

Word it differently, it is hard to understand.

and actually muslim countries have more women in parliament then most western countries,

Details, or it is hard to believe.

and you want to sit here, and tell me its a sign of oppression please. Stop.. A women wearing hijab does not effect your daily life,

It is not about me, but about them.

just as a women who chooses to wear shorts does not effect mine.

Again, you are selfish. If things don't bother you there is no reason to change anything. Bravo. Did you ever hear about protection of basic human rights?!!!..... I guess it never bothered you....

. "If the Virgin Mary appears

wearing a veil on all her pictures, how can you ask me to sign on a hijab ban law

Again, I hope sparkey can read this, lol. tahir, please don't leave Turkey yet, you are not ready to join the world.

 

[Yetos]

we are in Europe,
not in a Sahara desert village,
the winds and the dust are not so much so demand cover the eyes,
so in Europe nigab and burka must be baned,
chador and hiyab, are not covering face, so no need to be baned,
but must be, by personal will,
But that at work a woman should be dressed as the dressing code demands,

besides the christian dressing code, as suggested by Paulos, for women, suggest to cover their head only at church gatherings if there are men nearby
but also allows women with short hair to be uncovered at church,
and is a suggestion, not a demand,
same must be with Islamic dressing code of head covering,
we can not change dressing codes of hospitals, police, justice courts, banks, restaurants, etc
Public appearance, works, etc are above religion,
If I want to practice religion, I can do it at a temen a temble at my house etc,
Can I walk the streets dressed like that?

I think that as it is shame to run naked at the streets, a nudist,
same is to run with burka,
and as police arrests the naked guys for provoking public code,
shame must be done with nigab and burka.

about the veil,
is replaced by sun glasses,
veil was used mainly at funerals, and sometimes at weddings
so not to see the tears/feelings of the women,
women used it as a defencive cover so not to read their emotions at very big joy or sorrow
today they use sun glasses.


@ Tahir
Μαντηλα, tsemberi, tsatela, are not to be banned,
do not afraid for that,
but they must be excluded at work for public issues when and where this is needed.
at least that is my opinion as concerns certain jobs

 

[LeBrok]

we are in Europe,
not in a Sahara desert village,
the winds and the dust are not so much so demand cover the eyes,
so in Europe nigab and burka must be baned,
chador and hiyab, are not covering face, so no need to be baned,
but must be, by personal will,
and not a tool of religious advertisement,
meaning that at work a woman should be dressed as the dressing code demands,

besides the Christian dressing code ask for women to cover their head only at church gatherings
but also allows women only with short hair to be uncovered at church,
same must be with Islamic dressing code of head covering,
Public appearance, works, etc are above religion,
If I want to practice religion, I can do it at a temen a temble at my house etc,
Can I walk the streets dressed like that?


I think that as it is shame to run naked at the streets,
same is to run with burka,
and as police arrests the naked guys for provoking public code,
shame must be done with nigab and burka

about the veil,
is replaced by sun glasses,
veil was used mainly at funerals, and sometimes at weddings
so not to see the tears/feelings of the women,
today they use sun glasses.

Yetos, start from your own country.

 

[LeBrok]

Russian orthodox.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, start from your own country.

@ Lebrok

that is my country
see second picture
Free will of covering the head
not forced by law
1 wears, 3 do not

annex to μαντηλα or tsember, or hiyab
but not in work, cause there, other public codes must run

that is not my country

and what about your country? Lebrok
is n't this your country?
I wonder what are they?
Are they Orthodox? are they Muslims? are they Russians?
What are They?
or maybe Paulos spoke different at East, and different at West?
1rst Corinthians 11

at least in my country we had muslims,
and also accepted lately hundrends of others,
WE DID NOT BUILD WALLS

and is another thing burka and another hiyab


is she Catholic from Poland?
why is she wearing a backwards Hiyab?

 

[LeBrok]

@ Lebrok

that is my country
see second picture
Free will of covering the head
not forced by law




annex to μαντηλα or tsember, or hiyab
but not in work, cause there, other public codes must run

that is not my country




and what about your country? Lebrok
is n't this your country?
I wonder what are they?
Are they Orthodox? are they Muslims? are they Russians?
What are They?
or maybe Paulos spoke different at East, and different at West?
1rst Corinthians 11

at least in my country we have muslims,
and also accepted lately hundrends of others,
WE DID NOT BUILD WALLS

Not law, but religious orthodox tradition and folk tradition. What this has to do with a free choice, free will choice, women choice? This is a patriarchal custom to mark a woman as married. As belonging to a man. Not available to others. Burka goes even farther. It hides the whole woman's beauty, so no man can see her beauty and is not tempted to steal her from other man. You see, a woman fully belonged to a man, was his property, and this is how the property was marked or covered. Simple like this.
It was like this in Europe, still is in few places for old generation, and this is how Near East still exists.

 

[LeBrok]

You must have said something good, all the religious Muslims are giving you good reputation.

Freedom never means freedom from consequences, for anybody. A lot of people from conservative Christian communities, for example, make the difficult decision to remove themselves from the communities, get shunned, and have to find themselves new support groups. I'm absolutely comfortable with such support groups, which are becoming easier and easier with the Internet. They're an effective, voluntary way to break the social pressure you speak of. Why do you think that a ban on a type of clothing will be effective in the same way at all? Imagine that you're in such a situation, on the brink of making the decision to escape from it. Voluntary support groups would, as you probably agree, be the first place you would look.

Oh, this is a vindicating. You actually agreed that people wearing burka are under pressure from their community to wear it. Are you sure you are still for a "free choice" or preserving the oppressive tradition.
I'm actually for establishing a free choice, eventually in the future when we get rid of the forceful tradition.

But how could the clothing police help you at all?

How the slavery police did the trick?

When slavery was abolished, none fought to keep it.

Agrrrrrrrr, why the heck American civil war started?!!! To the best of my knowledge, all South wanted to keep the slavery, North didn't.

Burka wearers have rights to wear or not wear them.

When you abolish religious laws, sharia and similar, and honor killings, all prohibiting sight of hair and face of women, I will agree.

There may be social pressure, but not necessarily force (and when there is force, the force is the problem, not the garment).

I so agree, the force is the problem. Free women don't want to wear it, period.

Banning them would face resistance from the burka wearers themselves.

Of course you will find few. Like slaves staying to the end of their lives on the master farm and being served food and taken care off. However, a generation later, try to find volunteers to go back to slavery. Good luck.
No free choice, but just repetition of what they know the best. They follow a tradition because they know it the best, because it feels good, that's it. They just feel it is a free choice, but it is just an illusion.
They are not like you and me, they are not libertarians in nature, rebels or freedom fighters.

"If western women don't want to wear Burka, therefore... Women only wear it if they are forced to." Is that what your argument boils down to?

Boils down to??? I thought my argument was multifaceted! But heck, this is still a great argument. Present Burka to free women and they don't even want to give it a glance. If this doesn't teach you about woman nature, I don't know what will.

So if western men don't wear Buddhist monk robes, therefore Buddhist monks are being forced to wear them?

Damn it, yeh, by tradition. How hard is to finally see it , dude? Did you ever ask the cheef monk, or whatever the hell the proper name is, if they accept newbie monk if he wears what he wants?! I guarantee you, you won't be a monk in jeans!

The fashions of a particular cultural group has very little to say about whether or not people of another group are being forced to wear clothing that has value in their own culture, especially if, as I suggested, the clothing has religious implications.

Oooohhhhh. Especially when clothing has religious implication. Religion is a powerful force.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Islam has a problem with overbearing censorship, oppressiveness, and even violence.

I wish you started with this.

These are problems which must be addressed, but not with a burka ban. One of my suggestions to combat it is to open the free speech floodgates--so that young Muslims can see exactly how their religion, especially conservative forms of it, fare in the open marketplace of ideas.

Exactly the conservative force is the problem. If women were not pressed by the conservatives to wear burka, we wouldn't have had this discussion.

 

[LeBrok]

is she Catholic from Poland
why is she wearing a backwards Hiyab??@

Of course she is. The point was that you, the Greek, was showing Muslim women in Greece wearing hijab. I pointed you to Greek women wearing the same. If you are a fair person, you should have criticized Muslim women and orthodox women equally. But you didn't. I had to correct you.

 

[Yetos]

Not law, but religious orthodox tradition and folk tradition. What this has to do with a free choice, free will choice, women choice? This is a patriarchal custom to mark a woman as married. As belonging to a man. Not available to others. Burka goes even farther. It hides the whole woman's beauty, so no man can see her beauty and is not tempted to steal her from other man. You see, a woman fully belonged to a man, was his property, and this is how the property was marked or covered. Simple like this.
It was like this in Europe, still is in few places for old generation, and this is how Near East still exists.

No
before the woman was married she belonged to her Father,
so weared a different colour or size of cover, at the temple, mainly white,
But not everywhere and only if she wanted,
and that from a burka is far away,

in Europe many (I included) want to ban the burka, the face cover, as inhuman and also dangerous code of dressing,
not the hiyab or any other head cover,


and as I must be dressed correct when enter a casino, a social gathering, a nudist place, a court etc etc
I agree that when I enter to a religious place I must be dressed with the code

 

[LeBrok]

No
before the woman was married she belonged to her Father,
so weared a different colour of cover, at the temple

Even better, she didn't belong to her mother, just her father.

But not everywhere and only if she wanted,

Just a second, let me laugh. )

in Europe many (I included) want to ban the burka, the face cover, not the hiyab or any other head cover,

Of course not, why would you ban Greek and Polish tradition?!

 

[Yetos]

Of course she is. The point was that you, the Greek, was showing Muslim women in Greece wearing hijab. I pointed you to Greek women wearing the same. If you are a fair person, you should have criticized Muslim women and orthodox women equally. But you didn't. I had to correct you.

ohBoy
Oh Boy
you posted about Greek and Russian Orthodox with covering heads
and said to me to speak about my country,
and now you crawl avoiding what?
and I say first post for your country,

and second,
IN MY COUNTRY THERE IS ANNEX TO EVERY HEAD COVER,
EXCEPT FOR PUBLIC ISSUES OR WORKS THAT DEMAND A DRESSING CODE
same with every other European country from Ireland to Russia,
but is punishable every face cover, (except certain days of carnival , or theatrical acts)

 

[Yetos]

Even better, she didn't belong to her mother, just her father.
Just a second, let me laugh. )

Of course not, why would you ban Greek and Polish tradition?!

that is what you see

but by ban the hiyab
then we must also ban every head cover
like

or all these

Wanted or not,
head covers are parts of our dressing
we can not ban a head cover, even if it is a religious Christian or Islamic mark,
cause then another kind of head cover will replace it,
and surely we can not ban all head covers including hats
But we can ban the face cover, and this will also prottect women who are forced to wear it,
simply logic


we can and me must ban this

or allow them only at Carnaval days time

it is simple,
we do not ban christian cross, jewish star, islamic moon, polytheistic sun, pagan statue etc,
in Europe except muslims and christian also exists jews,
they also have their dressing code,
also exist buddists etc etc,
and I personally I believe is not a matter of Europe,
but a matter of Islamic world to ban the burka as inhuman dressing code.

by ban the burka we do not ban Islam,

 

[sparkey]

LeBrok, there's one clarification I'd like to make before focusing on one aspect of your previous response to me in particular.

Agrrrrrrrr, why the heck American civil war started?!!! To the best of my knowledge, all South wanted to keep the slavery, North didn't.

Clarification: Read what I wrote in context with its previous sentence, and I think it's clear that by "none" I mean "no slaves." By your later comment "try to find volunteers to go back to slavery. Good luck," it seems that we're actually nearly in agreement here, that slaves didn't want to return to slavery. You also highlight how many nonetheless resorted to sharecropping because that's what they knew, and I wouldn't disagree. So it seems that our disagreement isn't about what happened to the slaves, but about the nature of force, and whether cultural/religious social pressure is force in the same sense as the force required to keep slaves in bondage. Since that is your position, I don't think I can convince you that burka bans are unnecessary by offering you examples of women who choose to wear them, because you could always just turn around and say that she was "forced" to by the cultural/religious social pressure. I think that viewing someone choosing to wear the clothing of their social tradition in the same way as someone being forced to be a literal slave highlights the absurdity of how you view force, but you seem inflexible, so let's move on.

I'm actually for establishing a free choice, eventually in the future when we get rid of the forceful tradition.

How the slavery police did the trick?

When you abolish religious laws, sharia and similar, and honor killings, all prohibiting sight of hair and face of women, I will agree.

I don't think you've sufficiently addressed the practicality, and how this would help eliminate the conservative social pressure you find so troubling. You seem to be arguing that a police force (according to you, comparable to Reconstruction era federal troopers) would help liberalize the community, and offer women an out. How? Even if the clothing police are highly efficient, I strongly doubt that the effects would be what you think. From the standpoint of conservative Muslim men, if they already view Western governments with suspicion and want their women to cover up completely whenever they leave the house, wouldn't they be more likely to react with more suspicion of the government and less leeway for their women? From the standpoint of conservative Muslim women, wouldn't they be more likely to isolate themselves from the outside Western world if they couldn't wear clothing that made them feel comfortable in it? And for would-be moderate Muslim women looking for an out, what protection from the social pressure would they receive from a force that is designed to tell them what to do, rather than offering them new opportunities?

I think what you're underestimating is how poorly legality translates into group values. That is, making something illegal does not make people consider it wrong.

 

[IronSide]

The ironic thing is that these women who chose to wear the burka in a non muslim country are actually disobeying the Qur'an without them knowing, chapter 33 verse 59 in the Qur'an says : O Prophet! Tell your wives, and your daughters, and the women of the believers, to lengthen their garments. That is more proper, so they will be recognized and not harassed. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

The translation is actually wrong here, from Arabic, it should read so they will not be recognized, and so it follows, if their garments will cause them to be more recognisable, and may actually increase their chances to be harassed, doesn't that defeat the purpose of them wearing it ?

As always, the best Islamic scholars are often former muslims lol.

 

[LeBrok]

LeBrok, there's one clarification I'd like to make before focusing on one aspect of your previous response to me in particular.
Clarification: Read what I wrote in context with its previous sentence, and I think it's clear that by "none" I mean "no slaves." By your later comment "try to find volunteers to go back to slavery. Good luck," it seems that we're actually nearly in agreement here, that slaves didn't want to return to slavery. You also highlight how many nonetheless resorted to sharecropping because that's what they knew, and I wouldn't disagree. So it seems that our disagreement isn't about what happened to the slaves, but about the nature of force, and whether cultural/religious social pressure is force in the same sense as the force required to keep slaves in bondage. Since that is your position, I don't think I can convince you that burka bans are unnecessary by offering you examples of women who choose to wear them, because you could always just turn around and say that she was "forced" to by the cultural/religious social pressure. I think that viewing someone choosing to wear the clothing of their social tradition in the same way as someone being forced to be a literal slave highlights the absurdity of how you view force, but you seem inflexible, so let's move on.

Ah, the cultural force, religion including, is strongest of all, and rides the humankind like a tamed horse. I bolded above text, because this is where you underestimated cultural force. When you rich to historical sources you will see that after slavery was abolished in the South, majority of slaves remained on plantations till they died. Sure, they have nowhere to go and without much money their mobility was very limited. However, many especially middle age and older people stayed there, from a prosaic fact that they didn't know anything else. They didn't experience anything else, and didn't see other places. They knew only how to do field work and work around the house, they had place to live and food supplied every day. Out there, was a different and unknown world of free fending people for themselves, competition and different organization. Here, in culture of slavery, everything was obvious, everything was known. This was a big part of the culture they grew up in. And by nature, people tend to stick to their culture, to what they know, to what they grew up with, to what they identify with. There are also modern examples, from organizations buying people from slavery, like in India, that very often people who were freed go back to the master, who supplied them with room, food and other utilities. They got used to a certain lifestyle, that's it. That's the prosaic human condition.
For that reason too, I compared burka with slavery. Both need to be weeded out to stop the tradition, the lifestyle. And also other extreme cultural phenomena like female genital mutilation, or whipping women with sticks for success of men in family, or ritual cannibalism.

I don't think you've sufficiently addressed the practicality, and how this would help eliminate the conservative social pressure you find so troubling. You seem to be arguing that a police force (according to you, comparable to Reconstruction era federal troopers) would help liberalize the community, and offer women an out. How? Even if the clothing police are highly efficient, I strongly doubt that the effects would be what you think.

From technical point of view clothing police can be very successful. Look at areas owned by Taliban or ISL. All women are dressed in Burka.
By no means I'm advocating killing or jailing peole for wearing Burka, but there are other measure to fight it. Like education, fines, entry restrictions, social pressure, or even deportation in some cases.

From the standpoint of conservative Muslim men, if they already view Western governments with suspicion and want their women to cover up completely whenever they leave the house, wouldn't they be more likely to react with more suspicion of the government and less leeway for their women? From the standpoint of conservative Muslim women, wouldn't they be more likely to isolate themselves from the outside Western world if they couldn't wear clothing that made them feel comfortable in it?

I don't have much regard, understanding or patience for conservative Muslims, Buddhists or Christians alike. If they don't like what West stands for they can hid in some conservative shithole and do whatever they want. If they want to come and enjoy freedoms of the West, they better want to desire and respect these freedoms; the equality, tolerance, inclusiveness, democracy for all races and sexes.

And for would-be moderate Muslim women looking for an out, what protection from the social pressure would they receive from a force that is designed to tell them what to do, rather than offering them new opportunities?

She felt much better knowing that she will be protected by law and the rest of society against customs designed to oppress women.

I think what you're underestimating is how poorly legality translates into group values. That is, making something illegal does not make people consider it wrong.

I know that, but surely it didn't stop Western society to progress towards freedoms and lifestyle we enjoy now. Be it emancipation of women, outlawing segregation and racism, not drinking and driving, seatbelt and helmet culture, ban of smoking in public places, dumping garbage wherever, freedom of religion, etc, etc. I'm sure you learned how vicious the opposition was.

 

[BalkanPower]

we should ban the burqa. you ever noticed that those islamic clothes for women are black ? even in the hot desert of arabia they were a black burqa which is in my opinion a tactic to make the women suffer and opress her at the same time.

burqas do not allow women to show facial expression, which is necessary in a conversation. they look like ninjas and they attract attention and scare kids.
a culture where you should wear a burqa, otherwise you will be raped because men see her face have lust to do nasty things to a woman ?? no thx

Please ban burqa

 

[LeBrok]

we should ban the burqa. you ever noticed that those islamic clothes for women are black ? even in the hot desert of arabia they were a black burqa which is in my opinion a tactic to make the women suffer and opress her at the same time.

burqas do not allow women to show facial expression, which is necessary in a conversation. they look like ninjas and they attract attention and scare kids.
a culture where you should wear a burqa, otherwise you will be raped because men see her face have lust to do nasty things to a woman ?? no thx

Please ban burqa

You said this like a true liberal and feminist.

 

[Maleth]

The ironic thing is that these women who chose to wear the burka in a non muslim country are actually disobeying the Qur'an without them knowing, chapter 33 verse 59 in the Qur'an says : O Prophet! Tell your wives, and your daughters, and the women of the believers, to lengthen their garments. That is more proper, so they will be recognized and not harassed. God is Forgiving and Merciful.

The translation is actually wrong here, from Arabic, it should read so they will not be recognized, and so it follows, if their garments will cause them to be more recognisable, and may actually increase their chances to be harassed, doesn't that defeat the purpose of them wearing it ?

As always, the best Islamic scholars are often former muslims lol.

I believe another point is that the Qur'an states that Muslims should obey the law of the country they reside in. Locally we have a law that clearly states that its against the law to cover the face except for the 3 days of carnival. One even has to remove sunglasses when entering a bank. Also the Burka is not something Religious in reality as (correct me if I am wrong) nowhere is stated that a woman should cover her face (Just the head). In fact some passages apply for the woman to look down when a man is speaking....clearly stating that the face should not be covered. Many people do not even care what the holy books states and just follow the secular laws of the country.

 

[IronSide]

I believe another point is that the Qur'an states that Muslims should obey the law of the country they reside in. Locally we have a law that clearly states that its against the law to cover the face except for the 3 days of carnival. One even has to remove sunglasses when entering a bank. Also the Burka is not something Religious in reality as (correct me if I am wrong) nowhere is stated that a woman should cover her face (Just the head). In fact some passages apply for the woman to look down when a man is speaking....clearly stating that the face should not be covered. Many people do not even care what the holy books states and just follow the secular laws of the country.

Sorry, I don't remember any passage in the Quran commanding muslims to follow the law of the country they reside in, maybe there is something like that, I used to read it many times when I was muslim but that's a long time ago, so I could be wrong.