Debate Why Don't Feminists Fight for Muslim Women ???

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Wanderlust,

Europe has taken and stolen enough resources from every other continent for centuries and so yes, yes, we had it coming.

Why are you using continents - not countries - as territorial divisions in this case ???

How much wealth did Slovenia or Czech Republic steal from other continents ??? :LOL:

As for your country - Sweden - it was mostly stealing resources from Germany (e.g. in 1618-1648) and Poland (e.g. in 1655-1660). I don't think that you stole more from Somalia than from Germany or Poland. So why are you "being nice" to Somalis?

Also what is your definition of "Europe" ???

For example Konrad Adenauer said that Europe starts to the west of the Elbe River.
 
Please stop the crap.
Shi'ites and Sunni are killing each other allready 1300 years, from the 3rd Islamic generation, and the west has nothing to do with that.
They are fanatics and everyone that does not agree with them are kafirs.

You're right, nobody from the West or North has a link with Sunni-Shia split.

Split between Sunnis and Shias emerged several decades after Muhammad dead (632 AD). Ali ibn Ali Talib was cousin of Muhammad and ruler of Caliphate five years, but he was assassinated (661 AD). His son Husayn ibn Ali killed in the Battle of Karbala (680 AD). Umayyad caliph Yazid I won the battle with large military forces. Shia Muslims are Ali's followers and for them this battle has a central place in their tradition. After this battle Sunni-Shia split was lasting.

...
Interesting discussion I had with some Shia Muslims about society wide questions and they told me that democracy is a great achievement and that Islam should find adequate answers to it.
 
"Most of what I love about Swedish culture I could find in Norway, Denmark, Hamburg, or Seattle. "Swedishness" is not so unique and special."
Maybe for you.

ÅSA JINDER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDhNF2WxrD8

Jättebra! That was beautiful. But I also like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzTnwGZQwNo

...which is also "Swedish."

Brorsan, cultures change. What it means to be Swedish will change for the next 1,000 years. What it meant to be Roman 2,000 years ago is not the same as what that means now. I know change is hard but it is inevitable. This is why conservatives eventually lose--things change. But the things you love will never die so long as you love them. No one can take your culture away from you, because "Swedish culture" is now both ÅSA JINDER och Lorentz. There is something for everyone. Space is not limited at the culture table.
 
Wanderlust,


Why are you using continents - not countries - as territorial divisions in this case ???

How much wealth did Slovenia or Czech Republic steal from other continents ??? :LOL:

"Sins of the father...."

Exodus 34:6-7 “The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

As a dutiful, genetically hardwired Polish Catholic, I thought you'd appreciate that. What can I say, karma is an inexact science. Europe is the parent, and Slovenia and the Czech republic are the neglected stepchildren. :cool-v:

As for your country - Sweden - it was mostly stealing resources from Germany (e.g. in 1618-1648) and Poland (e.g. in 1655-1660). I don't think that you stole more from Somalia than from Germany or Poland. So why are you "being nice" to Somalis?

Sweden was also a slave trading nation, though admittedly, they didn't take slaves from East Africa--regardless, they stole from Africa (but didn't benefit as much directly like many other Western European nations; but the wealth sucked from Africa over the centuries has benefited much of Europe indirectly). :giggle: I'm being a bit cheeky, but Sweden helps Somalis because Sweden is a generous, humanitarian nation. The idea of not helping someone just because they don't look like you or share your same culture is preposterous.

Also what is your definition of "Europe" ???

For example Konrad Adenauer said that Europe starts to the west of the Elbe River.

Admittedly, when I say "Europe," I'm usually thinking of Western Europe in similar terms to Adenauer because they actually have money and resources. :grin: But obviously, Europe consists of the 50 countries on the continent of Europe.
 
You're right, nobody from the West or North has a link with Sunni-Shia split.

You're wrong. To be clear, I never said that Western involvement was the genesis for the Sunni-Shia split or even had a significant hand in their dysfunctional relationship throughout the centuries, or even implied that. I already know that the Sunni and Shia have clashed for over a 1,000 years. Bicicleur asked "is the west responsable for the constant clashes between shi'ites and sunni?" And I said "PARTLY, yes." I don't think he understands what partly means. Partly does not mean "fully responsible" or even "mostly responsible." What partly means is "to some extent." Because of Iran, the US has tried to keep Shi'ite power at a minimum by supporting and backing Sunni forces, thus adding to the instability between Sunnis and Shi'ites. I'm not wrong about that.
 
Passing the buck

We ( westerner Governments ) should demand eqaulity in all aspect of society ...including ALL religions practiced in the nation. If tthe religions do not change there anti-female theories, then the religion should be removed.
I see no women bishops , Popes or cardinals, no female clerics, no female have zero equal rights in regards to islam, judasism or christians religious practices.

I have no problem with female priests.

Churches should give answer.

When did you see a female islamic cleric ?

He joked.

He gave examples of taqiyya.
 
You're wrong. To be clear, I never said that Western involvement was the genesis for the Sunni-Shia split or even had a significant hand in their dysfunctional relationship throughout the centuries, or even implied that. I already know that the Sunni and Shia have clashed for over a 1,000 years. Bicicleur asked "is the west responsable for the constant clashes between shi'ites and sunni?" And I said "PARTLY, yes." I don't think he understands what partly means. Partly does not mean "fully responsible" or even "mostly responsible." What partly means is "to some extent." Because of Iran, the US has tried to keep Shi'ite power at a minimum by supporting and backing Sunni forces, thus adding to the instability between Sunnis and Shi'ites. I'm not wrong about that.

Clarification about Sunni-Shia split was important because certain circles in the West (I will not say leftists do not drop in hard right wing agenda) for all what happened and happens in Third world are pointing to the West. But it is wrong. For each country of the third world it is much better to look at their own strengths and weaknesses and the opportunities which has on the road to development than blaming the West for the miserable destiny. Far East countries through appropriate strategies and hard work managed to escape initially unfavorable conditions (without thinking that blame West) and they show that path is possible.

Bicicleur noticed extraordinary:

You say Islam never had the chance to reform. It has had more chances than Christians, but every reform in Islam is countered by fundamentalism.
It seems to me most Muslims have accepted this as their karma.
If secular society wins, they keep low profile.
If fundamentalism wins, they'll submit to that without revolt.

This is great truth, no matter how many tried to present it is no so.
 
certain circles in the West (I will not say leftists do not drop in hard right wing agenda) for all what happened and happens in Third world are pointing to the West. But it is wrong. For each country of the third world it is much better to look at their own strengths and weaknesses and the opportunities which has on the road to development than blaming the West for the miserable destiny.

The West may not be responsible for "all" that is wrong with the Third World but they are for a lot of it, and in many cases, their significant involvement has done more harm than good.

1.) One of biggest problems is that in places like Africa and Asia (including the Middle East), for centuries or even thousands of years, there had already been intra-continental fighting between national/ethnic/religious groups with longstanding grievances. The West conquered and colonized these places and either took advantage of and exploited the sectarian differences or ignored the differences and treated the conquered peoples as one. Worse, certain groups were favored over others and the allocation of resources were unequally distributed which exacerbated already existing tensions. And then during major political upheavals like WW1, WW2 and decolonization, there were many "arbitrary" borders constructed that didn't take into consideration the prior grievances and disputes amongst the peoples on the land and unsurprisingly, all hell broke loose, eg. Jews/Palestinians, Hausa-Fulani/Igbo, Hutu/Tutsi, Sunni/Shia/Kurds, etc....

2.) Let's remember that while Europe was still ensnared in the Dark Ages, there had been the Mayans, the Kingdom of Pagan, the Ghana Empire, the Incas, the Mali Empire, and don't even get me started on the kingdoms of India and dynasties in China--my point is, for most of the peoples who currently occupy the "Third World" or are considered to be developing nations, they were not culturally and economically impoverished pre-European Colonialism and Imperialism. No, they had long established their own artisans, monuments, currencies, trade routes, etc... and evidently were not desolate, "lazy," colored people--all propaganda used by Europeans to justify their disenfranchisement by the way. Resource rich Latin America, Africa and Asia have been robbed and plundered for centuries by the West; and the pillaged resources weren't just limited to the likes of sugar, cotton, gold, timber, coal, oil, etc... but also human capital via slave labor. Many peoples were forced into artificial, long lasting, generational poverty because their lands and resources were overexploited and completely depleted to the benefit of the Europeans and not the native peoples. For example, Britain utterly undermined India's economic potential--India went from exporting manufactured goods to providing raw materials to Britain, that for almost a century, amounted to the yearly equivalent of sixty million Indian workers. India didn't become poor on its own. And this trend took place consistently all over the Third World.

3.) And I just want to quickly address the slavs, who seem to be quite conservative, nationalistic and anti-left around here. Even Eastern Europe owes a lot of its current situation to Western European machinations. The very fact that the word slave is derived from slav is painfully telling. Whether from being worked to death in Charlemagne's mines, to being sold to the Muslims by Germany, France and Italy in order to revitalize themselves after the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire, to being specifically targeted for extermination by fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, slavs have had a hard time. And if that hadn't been bad enough, slavs then became the victims of Soviet expansion (colonialism and imperialism by another name). So, because Eastern European slavs have fared pretty badly over the past millennium or so, does that mean that they are inferior peoples meant only for servitude? Or that they were victimized continuously by various oppressive elements to the point where they were stagnated as a people? Philosopher Friedrich Engels once wrote concerning Irish treatment at the hands of the English: "How often have the Irish started out to achieve something, and every time they have been crushed politically and industrially. By consistent oppression they have been artificially converted into an utterly impoverished nation." Something to think about.

Far East countries through appropriate strategies and hard work managed to escape initially unfavorable conditions (without thinking that blame West) and they show that path is possible.

1.) Far East Asians are hard working and everyone else in the Third Word is simply lazy? Thanks for signaling the oldest and most unsubstantiated claim by Western Imperialists to date. Again, pre-European Colonialism and Imperialism, the "Third World," much of which is located in warm climates and inhabited by brown people, had flourishing kingdoms and civilizations. So, out of nowhere, and of their own volition, they somehow became slothful and lazy? Mind you, these are the same people who, today, often work excruciatingly long hours in warm, tropical climates, for meager earnings. Laziness isn't the problem.

2.) The Far East has plenty to "blame the West" for and they have and they will get even, eventually. Japan and China are well versed in playing the long game. They know how to bide their time and strengthen themselves before they get revenge. When the US under Commodore Matthew Perry humiliated Japan (then run by a Warrior society) by forcing them to open up their borders for trade, they copied and duplicated Western societal models and became an Imperial power themselves. And then eventually, Pearl Harbor happened. They had been embarassed less than a century prior to that--which was a defining cultural memory for a very prideful, honor based people. And then Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened which upped the ante--they have neither forgiven nor forgotten. And China deserves to be even angrier. They too had been forced by the West into unfair trading treaties and when they revolted, they were put down brutally (which the Japanese jumpstarts aided in). One of the reasons why the Chinese embraced Marxism was because they saw it as anti-Western, which had been personified in their eyes through imperialist capitalism. And of course, communism led them down a dark, isolated, regressive, restrictive path but they are recovering, and fast. One day soon, they will be powerful enough to seek revenge on all of those who have wronged them, chief on the list being the West and Japan (who is allied with the West).


Bicicleur noticed extraordinary:



This is great truth, no matter how many tried to present it is no so.

I don't think that was some extraordinary, unknown observation. Muslims have had an uneasy time reconciling their traditional, conservative beliefs with secular modernity; that tension stagnates them. They want to be modern, and there are many things they like about the Western world, but at the same time, they don't want to violate a belief system that is attached to their identity (even more strongly than their ethnicity--people in the West can't understand this). They would not be the first people, who faced with two difficult, complicated, polarizing choices, choose to "do nothing."
 
Wanderlust,

Sweden was also a slave trading nation, though admittedly, they didn't take slaves from East Africa

As far as I know Swedes were taking slave girls from Ukraine and then selling them to Muslim harems.

So you should rather be taking refugees from Eastern Ukraine (Donbass War) to pay for your past sins.

Muslim Arabs were actually your business partners in that disgusting sex slave trade, not your victims.

Vikings were also taking slaves from the British Isles, but those were mostly Danes and Norwegians.

visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.

I know my genealogical tree as far as the fourth generation back.

They didn't commit any sins against people from other continents.

As a dutiful, genetically hardwired Polish Catholic, I thought you'd appreciate that.

Actually I do not identify with Catholicism.

Looks like you are eager to stereotype other people as long as they have similar skin colour as you ???

Only stereotyping people with dark skin tones - or Muslims of any skin tone - is Non-PC in Sweden?

The idea of not helping someone just because they don't look like you

The reason for not helping is not how they look like, but how they behave and what are their value systems.

I am eager to help Non-Muslims from the Middle East. For example Yazidi refugees are welcomed:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...girls-being-bought-and-sold-even-for-no-price

the wealth sucked from Africa over the centuries has benefited much of Europe indirectly).

You are delusional. There had been NO any significant wealth in Africa before Europeans colonized it. Sub-Saharan Africa was always a poor shithole - both before Europeans came, and after Europeans left. And the reason for this is - sadly - because they have average genotypic IQ of just 80. In other words - Sub-Saharan Africans are genetically less intelligent than Eurasians. Saying this is not racism - it is a scientific fact, which is being suppressed by the PC left.

But obviously, Europe consists of the 50 countries on the continent of Europe.

No, Europe is not a continent. Nothing separates it from Asia.

Where do you draw a border between Europe and Asia, is entirely arbitrary.

There is a continent of Eurasia - it is one continent, not two.

Europe is a peninsula or a subcontinent - just like India.
 
Wanderlust,

Resource rich Latin America, Africa and Asia have been robbed and plundered for centuries by the West

Read about Muslim slave trade - Arabs and Turks were robbing and plundering Africa, the Middle East, India and Europe for centuries. Muslim slave trade extracted more people from Sub-Saharan Africa, than Atlantic slave trade did. Not to mention several millions of native Europeans who were enslaved by the Muslims. Also the so called "blood tax" was being payed by Balkan nations under Turkish occupation - Ottoman rulers were taking living people as tribute.

The Far East has plenty to "blame the West" for and they have and they will get even, eventually. Japan and China are well versed in playing the long game. They know how to bide their time and strengthen themselves before they get revenge. When the US under Commodore Matthew Perry humiliated Japan (then run by a Warrior society) by forcing them to open up their borders for trade, they copied and duplicated Western societal models and became an Imperial power themselves. And then eventually, Pearl Harbor happened. They had been embarassed less than a century prior to that--which was a defining cultural memory for a very prideful, honor based people. And then Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened which upped the ante--they have neither forgiven nor forgotten.

What the heck are you talking about ???

What am I reading: "Poor Japan, humiliated and harmed by the evil West in WW2"? WTF ?! The Japanese Empire killed more civilians and commited more genocides and war crimes in WW2 than Nazi Germany. The Japanese are the perpetrators of WW2, not its victims!

Jeez..., you Swedes are brainwashed as hell by your Anti-European education system. You are lost, brainwashed, there is no hope for you. We should let Sweden collapse, as a lesson for others, how not to run a country.
 
Wanderlust,

Also your confidence that the West will "suffer consequences for its actions", is just laughable. They will not suffer consequences for what their ancestors did many generations ago, because they are already awakening from their self-hatred. Open your eyes, look what is happening all over the West - they are fed up with left-wing rules. Brexit won, Trump is heading for victory in the U.S., Alt-right parties are gaining ground everywhere. In Austria the lefties falsified election results, now the election will be re-held and the Alt-right candidate is doomed to win. Your multi-cultural, self-hating, Europe-hating lefties, are losing ground everywhere, all the time. The West is going to rise again, and far-left nuts can do NOTHING, literally NOTHING to stop it. The regressive left is doomed to get lost - and they were asking for it, with their own dumb policies, which have already dissatisfied so many people. Libtards and cuckservatives are in full retreat.

 
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Wanderlust,

And if that hadn't been bad enough, slavs then became the victims of Soviet expansion (colonialism and imperialism

As far as I know, the Soviets were Slavs themselves. At least most of them were.

Unless you believe in Judeo-Bolshevism and Jewish-Communism theories?

But that would make you a very Anti-Semitic Swede, wouldn't it ???

So, because Eastern European slavs have fared pretty badly over the past millennium or so, does that mean that they are inferior peoples meant only for servitude? Or that they were victimized continuously by various oppressive elements to the point where they were stagnated as a people?

The good thing is that Muslim rapefugees also have the same stereotype of Eastern Europe as you, so they don't want to come here (they aren't aware that it is still infinitely better here than in their native shitholes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqEsE-IKBI8

 
Wanderlust,

Philosopher Friedrich Engels once wrote concerning Irish treatment at the hands of the English: "How often have the Irish started out to achieve something, and every time they have been crushed politically and industrially. By consistent oppression they have been artificially converted into an utterly impoverished nation." Something to think about.

Didn't the same Engels (or was it Marx?) write:

"The Basques are two stages behind Capitalist nations in development. If you are two stages behind, you cannot keep up and then procede to Communism, so the Basques need to be exterminated" - or something along these lines.

the "Third World," much of which is located in warm climates and inhabited by brown people

"Brown people" is actually not a valid ethnic taxon. Some "brown people" are closely related to Europeans, others are genetically far away from us. Skin-deep differences are not as important as other differences.
 
Wanderlust,
what it meant to be Roman 2,000 years ago is not the same as what that means now.
And what does that mean now? :confused: It means nothing to be Roman today. Today there are no Romans anymore. In his publication from 1921 a Swedish scholar - Martin P. Nilsson - explained why Rome collapsed. Look it up.
 
Wanderlust,

the Ghana Empire, (...), the Mali Empire

Most of people in those empires lived like cattle, in dirt and extreme poverty. Only a few aristocrats enjoyed high living standards. And the one and only source of wealth for aristocratic rulling clans of those empires, was selling their own people into slavery to Arabs and Europeans. One of common lies about Sub-Saharan slavery, is that Europeans were hunting people throughout the Interior of Africa. This is patently false - European merchants only visited factories located along the coast of Africa. Native Negroid chieftains were bringing their fellow Negroid slaves to those coastal outposts, and selling them to Europeans. This is how it worked. And slavery exists in Africa even today, long after Europe has banned it.

So you can't even blame Europeans for that, because those people were going to be slaves anyway - their fellow Africans enslaved them, and they were going to sell them - if not to Europeans, then to Arabs or to someone else.

the peoples who currently occupy the "Third World" or are considered to be developing nations

The main problem is, that many of these Third World nations are not even developing - many of these nations are either stagnating, or de-developing (i.e. becoming more and more backwards). Population in Sub-Saharan Africa is increasing faster than GDP, so GDP per capita is decreasing. Africa is even poorer today than it was under European rules.

Read this book: Venatius Chukwudum Oforka, "The Bleeding Continent" (it is about Africa).
 
Also, the rulling classes of those Sub-Saharan Empires were often foreign conquerors, not natives.

Especially Arabs and Horners (peoples of the Horn of Africa) came to prominence in those regions.

The subjects were usually native Negroids, while the rulers were mixed race, Negroid-Caucasoid.

The Great Zimbabwe was most likely established by Yemenite Jews who migrated to that region.

Today the Lemba people are descendants of those Jews - but they mixed with native Bantu folks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba_people

So Sub-Saharans never created any high culture totally on their own - only with foreign "help".
 
Wanderlust,

you say the Europeans have disrupted so many peacefull, harmonious an advanced civilizations

read this book

War Before Civilization: the Myth of the Peaceful Savage (Oxford University Press, 1996) is a book by Lawrence H. Keeley, an archaeology professor at the University of Illinois at Chicagowho specializes in prehistoric Europe. The book deals with warfare conducted throughout human history by societies with little technology. In the book, Keeley aims to stop the apparent trend in seeing civilization as bad, by setting out to prove that prehistoric societies were violent and frequently engaged in warfare.

Keeley started writing the book after unsuccessfully requesting funds from the U.S. National Science Foundation to excavate several Early Neolithic village sites in Belgium. He hoped to uncover ancient palisades and fortifications similar to others in the area. He was denied the grant until he referred to these other sites as “enclosures” rather than “fortifications”. The politically correct NSF archaeologists couldn’t fathom the concept of prehistoric warfare. To their eyes, violence in prestate societies was infrequent, nonlethal, unimportant, ritualistic, and unsophisticated.
But as Keeley subsequently proves, there’s only so many mass graves and skulls embedded with arrowheads that one can pretend don’t exist. Eventually, the evidence piles up: prehistoric warfare was frequent, deadly, and serious — more “Conan the Barbarian” and less “Dances with Wolves”.

This book is out allready 20 years and nobody has proven it to be fundamentally wrong.
This story about Europe disrupting an existing peacefull world order is wrong. It is a story invented by the political correct castes who try to blaim Europe and the US for whatever goes wrong in the world. Their goal is to make all Europeans and Americans feel guilty and responsable for whatever goes wrong in the world.
I strongly reject that. Most things are the responsability of the local actors on the field themselves. The attitude of blaiming the west is actually an excuse for those who are realy guilty in the facts. This attitude is certainly not helpfull.

 
The Rise of Sweden's Far-Left Militants

Ultra-nationalist political parties scored unprecedented victories in the European elections, making the rise of the far right in Europe impossible to ignore. Many of these groups, some of which are openly neo-Nazi, are gaining strength everywhere. In Sweden, there's been a sharp rise in political violence in the country, with crimes carried out by radical groups making headlines. Howe...
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Ultra-nationalist political parties scored unprecedented victories in the European elections, making the rise of the far right in Europe impossible to ignore. Many of these groups, some of which are openly neo-Nazi, are gaining strength everywhere.

In Sweden, there's been a sharp rise in political violence in the country, with crimes carried out by radical groups making headlines. However, what's unusual is that one of the most violent extremist organizations in Sweden aligns itself not with Nazism and the far right but with anti-fascism and the far left.

Known as the Revolutionary Front, this group of militant socialists aims to crush fascism by any means necessary. VICE News set out to find the Revolutionary Front and to understand the unlikely rise of the militant far left in Sweden.
http://www.vice.com/video/the-rise-of-swedens-far-left-militants
 
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