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Problematic samples from Balkans! Are they for real?

LeBrok

LeBrok

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I was running samples from Montenegro and Bulgaria through GedMatch Harappa World and I couldn't believe my eyes. They were just crazy in what they were showing. Here they are:

[TABLE="width: 1358"]
[TR]
[TD]M214301 RISE595[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M836655 RISE596[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M777769 V2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M540478 T2G2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M212372 P192-1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M030961 K8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Montenegro LBA [?] U5a2 -[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Montenegro IA [?] X1'2'3 -[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Bulgaria LBA [1500-1100 BC] n/a -[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Bulgaria IA [850-700 BC] HV(16311) -[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Bulgaria IA [800-500 BC] U3b E-M78>Z1920[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Bulgaria IA [450-400 BC] n/a -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]5.77[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]12.42[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]8.15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]27.43[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]18.57[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]20.34[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]16.55[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]50.11[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]39.64[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]51.53[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]30.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]43.58[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]10.75[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]13.9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]2.04[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]1.76[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]0.38[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]48.39[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]23.39[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]25.86[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]37.64[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]20.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]60.53[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]1.87[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]10.25[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]9.09[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]3.33[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]5.87[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


First one from LBA Montenegro is not that bad. It is close to hungarian farmer samples with a little of Anatolian Chalcolithic. Baloch is up 5% and Caucasian 10%. It is Bronze Age in Europe and some IE should have shown here by now. Here is Hungarian farmer for comparison:
[TABLE="width: 182"]
[TR]
[TD]NE7 Hungary[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]19.04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]16.69[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]56.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]7.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Then IA Montenegro, for first glance looks like Unetice from Poland, below.
[TABLE="width: 182"]
[TR]
[TD]M453254 RISE154[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC] K1a4a1 -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]14.46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]4.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]53.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]0.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]26.58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Lots of NE Euro, substantial Baloch and low Caucasian, normal Med for CW. Then I look and see 10% NE Asian!!! Holy smoke, this guy's father or grandfather must have galloped 5 thousand miles to get here. And why did he brought only NE Asian and nothing else from long journey from over there, like Siberian or Beringian?
Mongolians have 62% of NE Asians. Is this from Iron Age Mongolian or Hun invasion? Or it is something wrong with the sample.

Then we have BA Bulgarian, and again NE Asian popped out, at 14% this time! But no Baloch and a lot of Caucasian. Did this invasion of Huns came through Anatolia this time? Crazy.

Then we have Bulgaria IA 850-700 BC, with 43% Siberian admixture and 37% Med. Like a Neolithic Farmer cross with reindeer hunter from Yakutia. Crazy!

Next one Bulgaria IA 800-500 BC, looks more like Hungarian BA, though 2 ky later, but what is this with 6% West African?

The last one Bulgaria IA 450-400 is crazy again. Looks like CA Iberian who lived 3 ky before, below.
[TABLE="width: 128"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 171, colspan: 2"]CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Population[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] 4.19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] 24.19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] 0.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] 0.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]American[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] 63.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] 5.14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]San[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]E-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] -[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 107"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"] 2.69[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

But with 9% San, which must have come from South Africa!

I think there is something wrong with these samples. Possibly of very low quality.
 
Montenegro had a small black community in Ulcinj. I don't know how they got there, but their presence has been known. So if its some African admixture probably its from them
 
As to the NE Asian, I would assume its the Huns, or the Golden Horde.
 
New Englander said:
As to the NE Asian, I would assume its the Huns, or the Golden Horde.
Click to expand...
There is a little problem with this as the Steppe was taken by Scythians who didn't have much of NE Asian-Mongolian like admixture.
[TABLE="width: 171"]
[TR]
[TD]scythian[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD] 0.67[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD] 24.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD] 7.68[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD] 45.27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD] 0.83[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD] 6.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD] 1.31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD] - [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD] 2.85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD] 1.40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD] 8.62[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD] - [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD] - [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD] - [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD] - [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD] - [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
43 percent siberian and 37 percent Mediterranean. Wow. Am I the only one who's jaw dropped after seeing that result?
 
First what is their ethnicity,could they be gypsies let's say,Muslim Montenegrin's Turks,whatever just guessing or admixed with them,forget Huns,Schythians golden horde.
 
DuPidh said:
Montenegro had a small black community in Ulcinj. I don't know how they got there, but their presence has been known. So if its some African admixture probably its from them
Click to expand...

Yes it's true that exists a small community of blacks in Ulqin. Ulqin now is part of Montenegro, but was and still continue to be an Albanian city. Ulqinaks were famous sailors throughout history, the descendants of ancient liburnians. The presence of this community of blacks is dedicated exactly to this Ulqinak pirates.
BTW, the inhabitants of today Montenegro are mostly slavized Albanians with some vlach and Slavic influx.
 
Bulgaria has long been at the receiving end of migrations from the Eurasian Steppe, and that occasionally included people from the Altai and Mongolia, but also from various parts of Siberia (e.g. the Uralic Magyars).

What is more surprising in that Bulgaria IA sample with 42% of Siberian is the rest of the admixtures.

First of all, that sample completely lacks NE European (i.e. also Indo-European) admixture. What kind of population in Europe, Central Asia or the northern Middle East still lacked any NE European admixture (I mean not even 0.1%) around 800 BCE? Even Chalcolithic and EBA Anatolians and Caucasians had clearly noticeable levels of NE European admixture.

Then, other LBA and A Bulgarian samples have no SW Asian, except one that has 1.9%. But this one has 10.2%! I suppose there is no need to say that Southwest Asia isn't one the way between Mongolia and Bulgaria, and that no population in the middle has any considerable SW Asian admixture. If we exclude the 42% NE Asian from the genome, a few generations ago the non-Mongoloid ancestors of that person could have carried nearly 20% of SW Asian, 15% of Baloch/Gedrosian and 65% of Mediterranean. The problem is that there isn't any population with that kind of admixture. The closest would be North Africans (esp. Tunisians), but with East African instead of Baloch. Maybe we should assume that the Baloch came together with the Siberian, as the total is close to 50%.

I looked up the HarappaWorld K=16 admixture for worldwide populations (if you click on the admixture's name the listing get sorted by frequency) and the closest to pure Siberian without NE Asian are the Nganasans (89%), who live in the Krasnoyarsk Krai in Central Siberia. They do have a bit of Baloch and Beringian. Actually let's assume that this sample is a first generation hybrid. One parent would have contributed 43.6 Siberian, 6% Baloch and 0.4% Beringian, and the other parent 37.6% Mediterranean, 10.2% SW Asian and 2.2% Baloch.

In that case the second parent would be much closer to a pure European Neolithic farmer with 20% of SW Asian admixture, so more like a Levantine farmer, but with only a little Baloch/Gedrosian and no NE_Euro admixture at all. How is that possible in Iron Age Bulgaria is a mystery to me. I can understand that some Siberian tribe migrate toward the Balkans from time to time. Here considering that the individual is female and carries mt-haplogroup HV, the mother would have been the one of Middle Eastern and the father of Siberian origin. That makes sense. The invader are typically men who take local brides. In that case the local bride would have either recently arrived from the South Levant or lived in a sort of time warp since the Late Neolithic, immune to the 3400 years of Indo-European presence in the Balkans by 800 BCE.


 
What is the ethnicity of this people? Where do you have the samples from? R you sure they are Bulgarian and Montenegrin?
 
LABERIA said:
Yes it's true that exists a small community of blacks in Ulqin. Ulqin now is part of Montenegro, but was and still continue to be an Albanian city. Ulqinaks were famous sailors throughout history, the descendants of ancient liburnians. The presence of this community of blacks is dedicated exactly to this Ulqinak pirates.
BTW, the inhabitants of today Montenegro are mostly slavized Albanians with some vlach and Slavic influx.
Click to expand...

Phantasmagoria still there,what else you would comment my friend if not this.Ulcinj Albanians Liburni,lets try to think rather opposite lol Albanians are Albanized Vlachs and Slavs,Greeks,looking at your vocabulary will proof this, if one discard Latin and Slavic borrowings,what's left? By contrast Montenegrin's speak much pure language lol There is good motive for my wannabe Illyrian friend.Can't you leave your bias for somewhere else whenever Balkan country is mention here?
 
Milan.M said:
Phantasmagoria still there,what else you would comment my friend if not this.Ulcinj Albanians Liburni,I think rather opposite lol Albanians are Albanized Vlachs and Slavs,Greeks,looking at your vocabulary will proof this, if one discard Latin and Slavic borrowings,what's left? By contrast Montenegrin's speak much pure language lol There is good motive for my wannabe Illyrian friend.
Click to expand...

Can you support your claims? Because i can support with documents my previous post.
 
Milan.M said:
Documents that Ulcinj Albanians are Liburni?
Click to expand...

That the today Montenegrins are slavized Albanians with some vlach and slavic influx.
 
LABERIA said:
That the today Montenegrins are slavized Albanians with some vlach and slavic influx.
Click to expand...

First show the documents for your claim of Liburni and second such documents every other country in neighborhood has them but all of them are opposite as i wrote above,better leave at least from here the nationalist rhetorics and socialize yourself.
 
Milan.M said:
First show the documents for your claim of Liburni and second such documents every other country in neighborhood has them but all of them are opposite as i wrote above,better leave at least from here the nationalist rhetorics and socialize yourself.
Click to expand...

First, this thread is about Montenegrins.
Second, open a random map and have a look.
And third, keep in mind that from a normal discussion in a forum is expected that participants will focus on the subject and not on the person you're talking.
 
LABERIA said:
First, this thread is about Montenegrins.
Second, open a random map and have a look.
And third, keep in mind that from a normal discussion in a forum is expected that participants will focus on the subject and not on the person you're talking.
Click to expand...

Yes and you started talking ancient sailors and who what ethnicity is,so I felt someone should cut it.Sorry that I was online,have good day now.
 
Yaan said:
What is the ethnicity of this people? Where do you have the samples from? R you sure they are Bulgarian and Montenegrin?
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RISE595 and RISE596 are samples from present-day Montenegro dated to the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age, respectively. I haven't been able to dig up a lot of information about their archaeological contexts, but both are from Kurgan-like Tumuli burials.
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http://polishgenes.blogspot.it/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

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The Montenegrin samples come from the Velika Gruda tumuluses (Ops. Kotor, Montenegro)

While the other tumuluses in the area are located on tops of hills, these two tumuluses are located in the middle of the Tivat field. The local people preserved the legends that these two stone tumuluses were Prokletije, piles of stones accumulated through centuries as part of the cursing ceremony. I wrote about Prokletija ceremony in my post entitled "Prokletija - The cursing ceremony". As a result, these tumuluses were preserved as the taboo linked with Prokletije forbids removal of even a single stone.

Velika Gruda and Mala Gruda tumuluses are only 270 meters away from each other. Mala Gruda is a single phase burial tumulus and has only a late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) tumb. Velika Gruda is a multi phase burial which has late Copper age (Early Bronze age), Iron age and Medieval burials. The late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial from Velika Gruda is equivalent to the late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial from Mala Gruda. These were rich princely graves, full of well made and decorated ceramics and metal objects made from silver, gold and copper alloys. The archaeologists who excavated these burials postulated that the people who were buried inside the Velika and Mala Gruda late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burials were involved in trades between the Balkan Hinterland and Southern Italy and probably the rest of the Mediterranean.

So who was buried in these tumuluses? The archaeologists admit that despite all the modern procedures, analysis and equipment used it is "difficult to understand who built the Mala and Velika Gruda burials. This is because there is at present so little knowledge about what was going on in the Southwestern Balkans during the time when these tumuluses were built. Basically the problem is that the way these tumuluses were built, the way they were positioned in the low lying landscape as well as some of the burial rite details have no parallels in the Mediterranean basin except in a small area of Montenegro and Northern Albania. The first next similar late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial is found in the steppe of the Yamna culture homeland....
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http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.it/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html


101 ancient Eurasian genomes (Allentoft et al. 2015)

Source:http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/2015/06/101-ancient-eurasian-genomes-allentoft.html

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Yaan said:
What is the ethnicity of this people? Where do you have the samples from? R you sure they are Bulgarian and Montenegrin?
Click to expand...
We are sure they are not Bulgarians and Montenegrins. They are Bronze and Iron Age people who lived in todays area of Bulgaria and Montenegro. We are trying to figure out why they have such weird genetics, not fitting time and place. Well, except one. The BA Montenegro looks about right. The rest could have come from Mars as well.
 
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