Problematic samples from Balkans! Are they for real?

[LeBrok]

Bulgaria has long been at the receiving end of migrations from the Eurasian Steppe, and that occasionally included people from the Altai and Mongolia, but also from various parts of Siberia (e.g. the Uralic Magyars).

What is more surprising in that Bulgaria IA sample with 42% of Siberian is the rest of the admixtures.

First of all, that sample completely lacks NE European (i.e. also Indo-European) admixture. What kind of population in Europe, Central Asia or the northern Middle East still lacked any NE European admixture (I mean not even 0.1%) around 800 BCE? Even Chalcolithic and EBA Anatolians and Caucasians had clearly noticeable levels of NE European admixture.

Then, other LBA and A Bulgarian samples have no SW Asian, except one that has 1.9%. But this one has 10.2%! I suppose there is no need to say that Southwest Asia isn't one the way between Mongolia and Bulgaria, and that no population in the middle has any considerable SW Asian admixture. If we exclude the 42% NE Asian from the genome, a few generations ago the non-Mongoloid ancestors of that person could have carried nearly 20% of SW Asian, 15% of Baloch/Gedrosian and 65% of Mediterranean. The problem is that there isn't any population with that kind of admixture. The closest would be North Africans (esp. Tunisians), but with East African instead of Baloch. Maybe we should assume that the Baloch came together with the Siberian, as the total is close to 50%.

I looked up the HarappaWorld K=16 admixture for worldwide populations (if you click on the admixture's name the listing get sorted by frequency) and the closest to pure Siberian without NE Asian are the Nganasans (89%), who live in the Krasnoyarsk Krai in Central Siberia. They do have a bit of Baloch and Beringian. Actually let's assume that this sample is a first generation hybrid. One parent would have contributed 43.6 Siberian, 6% Baloch and 0.4% Beringian, and the other parent 37.6% Mediterranean, 10.2% SW Asian and 2.2% Baloch.

In that case the second parent would be much closer to a pure European Neolithic farmer with 20% of SW Asian admixture, so more like a Levantine farmer, but with only a little Baloch/Gedrosian and no NE_Euro admixture at all. How is that possible in Iron Age Bulgaria is a mystery to me. I can understand that some Siberian tribe migrate toward the Balkans from time to time. Here considering that the individual is female and carries mt-haplogroup HV, the mother would have been the one of Middle Eastern and the father of Siberian origin. That makes sense. The invader are typically men who take local brides. In that case the local bride would have either recently arrived from the South Levant or lived in a sort of time warp since the Late Neolithic, immune to the 3400 years of Indo-European presence in the Balkans by 800 BCE.

I agree. Technically we could find the source populations, through times and places, to mix and receive something similar to these guys. In real life however, to get them to Balkans in their pure state to make children is impossible. Heck, it would be a miracle to get one of them happen, but 4 weird genomes within few hundred years, impossible. It would require a big tribe scale of migrations through thousands of miles, different climatic zones and food source of these hunter gatherers of Siberian, NE Asian, San, W Africans, and time travel of Neolithic Levant, in few generations to get to Bulgaria in same time period.
There is something wrong with these samples for sure, but I don't know what yet.

 

[Sile]

We are sure they are not Bulgarians and Montenegrins. They are Bronze and Iron Age people who lived in todays area of Bulgaria and Montenegro. We are trying to figure out why they have such weird genetics, not fitting time and place. Well, except one. The BA Montenegro looks about right. The rest could have come from Mars as well.

that is correct .......they are thracians

Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. Ydna H1b1.

Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis.

Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.

Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis.
The contaminated sample is the "royal" K8 sample

 

[LeBrok]

http://polishgenes.blogspot.it/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

The Montenegrin samples come from the Velika Gruda tumuluses (Ops. Kotor, Montenegro)



http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.it/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html


101 ancient Eurasian genomes (Allentoft et al. 2015)

Source:http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/2015/06/101-ancient-eurasian-genomes-allentoft.html

Thanks, good "digging". So these guys culturally relate to Steppe people. In this case we should be able to find Steppe admixtures like lots of NE Euro, Baloch, and some Siberian or NE Asian. Just the proportions are crazy.

 

[LeBrok]

I think these are the same genomes which were discussed by us here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31526-Bronze-Age-Bulgarian-sample?highlight=Thracians

If they are, they are not high coverage, and one of them is supposedly contaminated.

Right on, Angela. I wish I had memory of yours.
They seem to be of very low quality. I noticed that when run on GedMatch they complete the run in 2 seconds, which is like nothing. For comparison, I've run my kit and it took 20 seconds to be checked by Harappa calculator and show my data. Good quality ancient genomes like Loschbour and Stuttgart take about 10 seconds.
From all the samples above, BA Montenegro takes longest, 5 seconds, to calculate. Only one that we can roughly accept being about right for place and time. The rest of them take only 2 seconds to calculate. I'm sure the running time for kits is proportional to the size of the sample. Bigger/better quality sample takes longer to calculate. So it means, these Balkan samples are very tiny and definitely too small to get good statistical data about admixtures. Thus, crazy results.

 

[Sile]

You can start with this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardiaei
I hope you can find the way after you have read this two links.

greeks where in the montengrian area

Greek colonization on the Illyrian seaboard probably began late in the 7th century B.C. or early in the 6th century. The most important settlements appear to have been at Epidamnus (Durazzo), Tragurium (Traù), Rhizon (near Cattaro), Salona (near Spalato), Epidaurum (Ragusavecchia)

followed by celts

The migrations of the Celts at the beginning of the 4th century disturbed the country between the Danube and the Adriatic. The Scordisci and other Celtic tribes settled there, and forced the Illyrians towards the south.

What is the age of this Montenegrin burial?

 

[bicicleur 2]

can you run this one through GedMatch ?

Mezocsat Iron Age

Hungary

Ludas-Varju-dulo [IR1]Light brown/ dark blond hair, brown eyes

M

980-930 BC

N

22665262G, 15469724A

G2a1

Gamba 2014

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/analyses-of-an-iron-age-hungarian-genome/

he's always intrigued me
the Mezocsat were a horse-riding tribe originating from the steppe
his Y-DNA N points toward eastern Siberia

he's to young to explain the Bulgaria LBA admixture though

 

[Angela]

LeBrok, as per some earlier questions...

These are the Remedello samples:
GedMatch Number: T699825, T319214, T135721

I still haven't found the gedmatch number for Otzi.

 

[LeBrok]

can you run this one through GedMatch ?

Mezocsat Iron Age

Hungary

Ludas-Varju-dulo [IR1]Light brown/ dark blond hair, brown eyes

M

980-930 BC

N

22665262G, 15469724A

G2a1

Gamba 2014

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/analyses-of-an-iron-age-hungarian-genome/

he's always intrigued me
the Mezocsat were a horse-riding tribe originating from the steppe
his Y-DNA N points toward eastern Siberia

he's to young to explain the Bulgaria LBA admixture though

This seems to be a good sample, run time 7 seconds. From now on I'm going to include calculation time to indicate quality of a sample. It makes so much more sense than Bulgarian ones. He shows affinity to Unetice/CW, but with higher Caucasian, probably from Anatolian Bronze Age.

F999929	900 BC G2a1
IR Hungary	6.96
Population
S-Indian	-
Baloch	14.83
Caucasian	15.12
NE-Euro	43.91
SE-Asian	-
Siberian	2.97
NE-Asian	-
Papuan	-
American	2.03
Beringian	-
Mediterranean	21.14
SW-Asian	-
San	-
E-African	-
Pygmy	-
W-African	-

 

[Pax Augusta]

Thanks, good "digging". So these guys culturally relate to Steppe people. In this case we should be able to find Steppe admixtures like lots of NE Euro, Baloch, and some Siberian or NE Asian. Just the proportions are crazy.

It seems so, but there is no great consensus, Montenegrin Bronze Age hasn't been so much investigated so far. An interesting Polish paper on Velika Gruda site, RISE596 seems a Polish in Montenegro indeed

Bugaj, Urszula; Lutovac, Predrag; Bogacki, Miron; Trzeciecki, Maciej; Novak, Mario, Bronze-Age stone tumuli on Planinica Hill, obš. Tuzi, Montenegro. Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Krakow 2013

https://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/728333.15_Bugaj_iin.pdf

Tumuli in Montenegro are regarded as Bronze and Early Iron Age structures, but the majority of those sites have not been explored. The archaeological record indicates significant differences in their construction. The tumuli on Planinica — the first investigated stone burial mounds in Montenegro — regarding their construction, have analogies with the Early Bronze Age site of Rječani near Nikšić only, they do not compare with sites with a later chronology. Giving the state of research on the topic however, it should be pointed out that this is only hinted at. The Brillenspirale found in the sarcophagus of Tumulus II, based on finds from the comprehensively published site Velika Gruda near Tivat, indicates a much later date — to the Late Bronze Age. The minimum number of 7 individuals (probably males) buried in Tumulus II — fitting the ancestral pattern — encourages the interpretation of a long-term burial

Tomenable on athrogenica

Woman RISE595 (Late Bronze Age Montenegro - Velika Gruda site):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 93.44%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 0.00%

Woman RISE596 (Iron Age Montenegro - same site, Velika Gruda):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 49.57%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 50.42%

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...-with-DNA-land&p=155709&viewfull=1#post155709

DNA.land (posted on anthrogenica).

Bronze Age Montenegro RISE 595 (mtDNA U5a2d)

Iron Age Montenegro RISE 596 (mtDNA X):

 

[LeBrok]

I moved Remedello discussion to Harappa thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-your-admixtures-to-ancient-and-contemporary

 

[LeBrok]

It seems so, but there is no great consensus, Montenegrin Bronze Age hasn't been so much investigated so far. An interesting Polish paper on Velika Gruda site, RISE596 seems a Polish in Montenegro indeed

Bugaj, Urszula; Lutovac, Predrag; Bogacki, Miron; Trzeciecki, Maciej; Novak, Mario, Bronze-Age stone tumuli on Planinica Hill, obš. Tuzi, Montenegro. Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Krakow 2013

https://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/728333.15_Bugaj_iin.pdf





Tomenable on athrogenica



http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...-with-DNA-land&p=155709&viewfull=1#post155709

DNA.land (posted on anthrogenica).

Bronze Age Montenegro RISE 595 (mtDNA U5a2d)



Iron Age Montenegro RISE 596 (mtDNA X):

IA Montenegro is not totally bad. His 10% NE Assian is bad but the rest is ok I think. The Baltic LBA Rise598 is also low quality so admixtures might be off too, and I think they are, especially 6% of S Indian and very low Med.

M483824 RISE598	2.52		M836655 RISE596	2.76
Lithuania LBA [908-485 BC] H2a2 R1a-L62>M418			Montenegro IA [?] X1'2'3 -
Population			Population
S-Indian	6.12		S-Indian	-
Baloch	4.2		Baloch	12.42
Caucasian	4.92		Caucasian	-
NE-Euro	69.78		NE-Euro	50.11
SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-
Siberian	-		Siberian	-
NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	10.75
Papuan	-		Papuan	-
American	2.74		American	-
Beringian	-		Beringian	-
Mediterranean	8.45		Mediterranean	23.39
SW-Asian	3.73		SW-Asian	-
San	0.05		San	-
E-African	-		E-African	3.33
Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-
W-African	-		W-African	-