Mediterranean migration layers in Sicily and southern Italy

[New Englander]

If we are arguing that Italians were white, than turned darker in the past 2000 years than that is incorrect. Italians if anything, have become more central European like over the last few millennium, just looks at R1b, and the amount of Frankish, Spanish, and Ostrogoth rule.

 

[binx]

There are, according to this, very few Occitan speakers left. It's predicted to disappear in a generation.

It was brought by Piemontese Waldensians.
https://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/occita/an/i3/i3.html

Thanks!

As to your other comments, I very much agree. It's an unfortunate fact about this hobby and even discipline that it's riddled with racists and Nordicists of various stripes. There are whole sites full of them, They're always obsessed with slaves from Anatolia or the Levant or North Africa, but never mention the hundreds of thousands of Gauls, Germans, Britons, Pannonians and on and on. Nor do they ever explain how this correlates with the Italian cline. Did a memo go out to every slave trader in the Empire: Send all slaves to Italy; furthermore, all West Asian slaves go to Southern Italy, and all Northern and Central European slaves go north Of Rome? Just as an aside, Caesar captured so many Gauls that there was a glut on the market and prices plummeted.

I believe that unfortunately certain obsessions always end up ruining certain discussions.

A typical fairy tale lol? Italy is not overstudied, in comparison to British Isles and Germans, Italians are really under sampled, and Germans and British Isles don't show the same diversity as Italy in terms of Y. I never said completely changed if you look at what I said in the quote that quoted me on I said some, that's a huge difference. Italy has been getting constant gene flow since the neolithic and it really only stopped after Renaissance. With little exceptions of Arbereshe and Molise Croat communities.

Lol?

Yes I do, for one I have Converso Jewish heritage on both sides of the family, and I grew up not only with people of Italian descent but of different backgrounds, I always felt a special bond with Lebanese people, to me we are very similar, I find more in common with Lebanese than French, but maybe that's me. I guess I would be a Pan-Mediterraneanist for me I see similarity in all Mediterranean peoples whether they are from Southern Europe, North Africa or the Levant, I don't believe in this genetic barrier of the "Mediterranean" as some wish to be true, I think we all have some of eachother's dna.

Never heard an Italian claiming he finds more in common with Lebanese than French, quite the opposite. Yes, I think that's just you. And maybe few others.

You're a Pan-Mediterraneanist who lives in the New World, this explains everything.

Mediterraneanism and Nordicism are two sides of the same coin.

It probably does, but all Mediterranean peoples do share some dna, of course to varying degree, some little and some more.

All human beings do share some dna.

If we are arguing that Italians were white, than turned darker in the past 2000 years than that is incorrect. Italians if anything, have become more central European like over the last few millennium, just looks at R1b, and the amount of Frankish, Spanish, and Ostrogoth rule.

Was the discussion really on this? The white American issue? And what is the connection between Frankish, Spanish, and Ostrogoth rule and what you're talking about?

There are days that I feel really lucky not to be born and raised in the United States. Today is one of these. You Americans are all so absorbed in this racialism and you all live in such a ghettoed society that is difficult sometimes to distinguish an American liberal from an American conservative racist.

 

[New Englander]

What is the connection between Frankish, Spanish, and Ostrogoth rule and what you're talking about?

Read the history of Naples. Now, I would not dismiss the arrival of MENA admixture onto Italy during the past few millennium, just that it was less than the Indo European influence. Now, isolated locations in the south may have retained more Neolithic DNA, than gained some additional MENA like admixture in more recent times.

 

[Azzurro]

Thanks!



I believe that unfortunately certain obsessions always end up ruining certain discussions.




Lol?



Never heard an Italian claiming he finds more in common with Lebanese than French, quite the opposite. Yes, I think that's just you. And maybe few others.

You're a Pan-Mediterraneanist who lives in the New World, this explains everything.

Mediterraneanism and Nordicism are two sides of the same coin.



All human beings do share some dna.




Was the discussion really on this? The white American issue? And what is the connection between Frankish, Spanish, and Ostrogoth rule and what you're talking about?

There are days that I feel really lucky not to be born and raised in the United States. Today is one of these. You Americans are all so absorbed in this racialism and you all live in such a ghettoed society that is difficult sometimes to distinguish an American liberal from an American conservative racist.

Explain how Nordicism and Mediterraneanism are the same thing? If anything living in the New World exposes people more to other cultures, daily life is surrounded by a plethora of different cultures, living in a Cosmopolitan society has its advantages. And good stay in your crumbling Europe.

 

[Azzurro]

If we are arguing that Italians were white, than turned darker in the past 2000 years than that is incorrect. Italians if anything, have become more central European like over the last few millennium, just looks at R1b, and the amount of Frankish, Spanish, and Ostrogoth rule.

Majority of R1b in Italy is U152 which is Italic and has been there awhile. DF27, L21 and U106 came in through various people, maybe DF27 is old too and found in the ancient Ligures. Anyways all the other R1b's combined don't even equal a quarter of U152.

 

[Sile]

This makes absolutely no sense. Whether they were Middle Eastern or not is one thing, but there is no evidence they were related to Slavs at all. Their closest linguistic relatives lived both in the Alps and on the North Aegean island Lemnos.

One needs to clear their head in trying to think that the people we have on the map today where there in the ancient times..........this is all wrong.

If the etruscans came from germany and we know it was early iron-age that they where first recorded, then at this time in early iron age germany, the germans only lived in north-germany and denmark ..........central germany and south Germany had Gallic people, we find this in the 'royal capital" of the gallics near frankfurt, we also later have La tene and Halstatt being created by gallic/celts from Germany...............so If the etruscans did come from germany then they are more likely a gallic people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg


In regards to the stelae in Lemnos.........this was made 400 years after the etruscans are noted in italy, so more likey , it could be done by etruscan traders in the aegean.

 

[Angela]

If we are arguing that Italians were white, than turned darker in the past 2000 years than that is incorrect. Italians if anything, have become more central European like over the last few millennium, just looks at R1b, and the amount of Frankish, Spanish, and Ostrogoth rule.

First thing, please don't bring that racist anthrofora drivel here. You've been warned.

Second thing, I don't even know what the heck you're talking about. What do the changing definitions of "whiteness" in America have to do with an academic discussion about European genetics? William Penn wasn't sure he should let Germans from the Palatine into the Pennsylvania colony because they were too dusky. You believe he would have thought the Spanish were "white"? The original settlers were largely British Protestants who had enslaved SSA people. They defined "whiteness" in those terms.

I also have no idea where you have heard that Spanish and French political rule would have had a genetic impact in Italy. When will people get the fact that a few soldiers and civilian administrators would not significantly impact the genetics of a densely populated region? You need folk migrations, or absent that, some combination of disease and/or coming into a de-populated area.

The verdict is still out on the Goths, but all indications are that it was a small elite migration.

Please people, read papers, not anthrofora nonsense.

See:

Ralph and Coop, cited by Razib Khan a few days ago:
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Read the history of Naples. Now, I would not dismiss the arrival of MENA admixture onto Italy during the past few millennium, just that it was less than the Indo European influence. Now, isolated locations in the south may have retained more Neolithic DNA, than gained some additional MENA like admixture in more recent times.

These are generalized assumptions devoid of fact. See above.

 

[binx]

Explain how Nordicism and Mediterraneanism are the same thing? If anything living in the New World exposes people more to other cultures, daily life is surrounded by a plethora of different cultures, living in a Cosmopolitan society has its advantages.

Nordicism and Mediterraneanism are like Nazism/Fascism and Communism. Apparently divided by different ideas and ideals, isms end up using the same methods but the victim is always the same: the truth. Living in a Cosmopolitan society should turn you into a Cosmopolitan, not into a Mediterraneanist. Btw I think you're not really living in a Cosmopolitan society but rather in a ghettoized society and you're not really exposed to other cultures in their natural habitat but rather to an artificial projection in a place other than the original one, like in a zoological garden. For this reason, people try to identify with a part rather than with the other. To feel stronger, because group identity makes it overcome the pain of ghettoisation. But all this has more to do with personal identity issues than with archeology, genetics, anthropology, history.

This is obviously just my opinion.

 

[patrician]

It appears that the south-eastern quadrant of europe (Greece and Balkans) was the beachhead in the spread of agriculture into europe from it's source in the Levant region off the eastern mediterranean coast. In my opinion with the Y-DNA and MTDNA composition of early neolithic europeans and neolithic northwest anatolians, the entire neolithic package seems to demonstrate northeastern Syrian/ southeastern Turkish affinities.

 

[Angela]

It would be great if someone were able to get a graphic of the whole admixture chart on here that is legible...just for ease of use.

 

[patrician]

I'll be able to post graphs in a few posts hopefully.

 

[Azzurro]

Nordicism and Mediterraneanism are like Nazism/Fascism and Communism. Apparently divided by different ideas and ideals, isms end up using the same methods but the victim is always the same: the truth. Living in a Cosmopolitan society should turn you into a Cosmopolitan, not into a Mediterraneanist. Btw I think you're not really living in a Cosmopolitan society but rather in a ghettoized society and you're not really exposed to other cultures in their natural habitat but rather to an artificial projection in a place other than the original one, like in a zoological garden. For this reason, people try to identify with a part rather than with the other. To feel stronger, because group identity makes it overcome the pain of ghettoisation. But all this has more to do with personal identity issues than with archeology, genetics, anthropology, history.

This is obviously just my opinion.

Your entitled to your opinion.

I completely disagree with you on every level but that's my opinion.

I didn't know I lived under rock, you think people don't travel and experience the world? I'm a Mediterraneanist because that is what my ultra ethnicity is. I am open to other cultures like I said before. This ghettoized society thing that your holding on to is not really a valid point, there is many foreign born migrants to get the scope of things. Natural habitat and artificial projection? What is this an add for the Nature channel? Yes because I have no idea about archaeology, genetics, anthropology and history lol, I'm an Ancient History and Archeaology Major, there is and has always been constant contact in the Mediterranean whether you like it or not. That's why Roman and Greek Myth courses are added in the Mediterranean Myth class which includes also Phoenician myths, Egyptian myths, Sumerian/Babylonian myths, and they yes both Roman and Greek are not included in European Pagan Myth courses which talks about the Germanic religion, Celtic myths,etc...

 

[binx]

I'm a Mediterraneanist because that is what my ultra ethnicity is..

This has to do with your personal identity and social Identity, you're also Jewish, I've read. Try to ask to Italians if they share your ideas and they are Mediterraneanist like you. Asking them it has to do with your ethnicity.

 

[Azzurro]

This has to do with your personal identity and social Identity, you're also Jewish, I've read. Try to ask to Italians if they share your ideas and they are Mediterraneanist like you. Asking them it has to do with your ethnicity.

There are some, those who have a similar background to me, Mediterraneanism is quite popular, not sure about Italians in Italy, but I'm sure there are. Italy is a Mediterranean country.

 

[MOESAN]

It appears that the south-eastern quadrant of europe (Greece and Balkans) was the beachhead in the spread of agriculture into europe from it's source in the Levant region off the eastern mediterranean coast. In my opinion with the Y-DNA and MTDNA composition of early neolithic europeans and neolithic northwest anatolians, the entire neolithic package seems to demonstrate northeastern Syrian/ southeastern Turkish affinities.

It seems the most of European first neolithic (Balkans, Danube) people had closer affinities to the people of a certain period of Catal Höyük than to people of other Anatolia places, as, BI, Cayonu which was localized more easternly...kind of a bottlenecked pop, from what I red - but certainly later moves took place too, with less localized points of departure towards Europe- and it appears some more southern places could have been the point of departure of other colonisers (farmers) maybe in the earliest times (Pelopponese?); more maritime than terrestrial routes in this last case -

 

[Apsurdistan]

There's no issue with that, but check before you state something, because some people do get offended by comments of that nature. Can I ask how does Raseni sound Slavic? You know that the Etruscans predate the Slavs by 1000 years.

I said proto-Slavic, Slavic is just a name to describe a linguistic group and it's not that old. The Slavs call other Slavs Sloveni, slovo translates to "letter". Raseni sounds like Rascia or in Serbian Raška the current name for that province today in southwest Serbia, Ottoman name is Sanđak. Stara
Raška- Old Rascia the oldest Serbian province. Rascia is also similar to what Russians call Russia, Ra-see-ya.

So that's why. But I'm not claiming I know anything about these ancient people I might be totally wrong.

 

[LeBrok]

I said proto-Slavic, Slavic is just a name to describe a linguistic group and it's not that old. The Slavs call other Slavs Sloveni, slovo translates to "letter".

Maybe in Bosniak language?

 

[harena]

There are some, those who have a similar background to me, Mediterraneanism is quite popular, not sure about Italians in Italy, but I'm sure there are. Italy is a Mediterranean country.

And?

So now a Frenchman from Languedoc, who's 10x closer to a Belgian or a Swiss, is supposed to feel some special kinship with someone from Benghazi because "Med Bros"? Honestly I don't get your thought process..

 

[binx]

Italy is a Mediterranean country.

I would say not entirely.

 

[Apsurdistan]

Maybe in Bosniak language?

Serbian, Croatian too.
Google translate says pismo for ALL Slavic languages for "letter", I'm not talking about that kind of letter I ment as in alphabet letter A, letter B etc that's what slovo means in Serb-Bos-Cro. But slovo in Polak, Russian, Czech, Slovakian translates to "word". Bulgarian is not it's Duma and Macedonian Zbor for word.
We call other Slavs Sloveni I don't know what other Slavs call Slavs.