I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Yetos]

The problem is Yetos going offtopic with these bizarre claims of Albanians being western newcomers due to the elevated "Atlanto-Med" component in Albanians which is not fully Atlantic, but: part Early European Farmer - part Atlantic/WHG-like..

Now I am off topic?

is that your tactic always?

you named Atlantic which is foreign to Balkans, as local made in balkans
you claim bell beaker
you claimed Cetina river as proto Bell beaker !!!!!!!!
you claim mtDNA connection and matriarchcal lineage connection with Atlantic mark,

you put me in ignore list

Non of these work?

and Now I am off topic and I use an Agenda?

I wonder what your gods have to say about your attitude?

and YES I SAY IT CLEARLY
THE HIGH ATLANTIC MARK IN WEST BALKANS IS NOT LOCAL,
BUT RATHER AN ENTRANCE FROM ROMAN LEGIONS
CRUSADERS
NORMANDS

OR ELSE WHICH I CAN NOT IMAGINE,

 

[Fatherland]

Now I am off topic?

is that your tactic always?

you named Atlantic whic is foreign to Balkans,
you claim bell beaker
you claimed Cetina river as proto Bell beaker !!!!!!!!
you claim mtDNA connection and matriarchcal lineage connection with Atlantic mark,

Non of these work?

and Now I am off topic and I use an Agenda?

I wonder what your gods have to say about your escaping methods?

Yes, with your bizarre theories.

My points are:
It is not foreign to the Balkans, not anymore than Near-Eastern, West-Asian is.
Check how many times I wrote proto-.
Cetina culture has connections with Bell Beaker culture.
Surviving mtDNA lineages are way more numerous than yDNA in Europe.

You are escaping by putting your own twisted words in my mouth. Don't be sneaky.

TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.

 

[Bergin]

When I gave 4 theories after correspondence with Russian scientists, expert for genetic genealogy, people begun overwhelmed the thread with unnecessary and pointless things. They do not even respect for Maciamo who opened this greater thread.

I think Maciamo opened the thread in 2013. And honestly it was a fair option.
We are in 2017.
The goal of last wave of discussions was to assess the huge amount of samples from the Mathieson et al paper relative to the topic (origin of i2a-din).
No I2a-Din or ancestor found.

For some people lack of evidence became evidence (?), for some others hope is still there. As said, fair enough.
I promise you that if/when evidence is shown for the balkan origin of I2a-Din, I will be very happy (honestly, better a lost brother than no brother).

I also apologize for all the Albanian fury, but we really got a J2b2 and a pre-EV13 from that paper, so forgive us some 'balcan-style' celebration.
Maybe the next paper will be your turn to celebrate.

 

[Yetos]

It is not foreign to the Balkans.
Check how many times I wrote proto-.
Cetina culture has connections with Bell Beaker culture.
Surviving mtDNA lineages are way more numerous than yDNA in Europe.


You are escaping by putting your own twisted words in my mouth.

where did you find that Cetina culture is Bell beaker,
cetina river culture is a secondary IE with Greco-Illyrian helmets and Greek swords,
most important are Vucocar and Vatin, a possible sprunk of Myceneans
cetina is a much later 1000 years, estimated around 1500 2000 BC

Give me a good scientific source that puts Cetina as mother of Bell beaker
And not an anonymous blog of stupidity.

 

[Fatherland]

where

TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.

Shifting is relevant.

 

[Yetos]

TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.

Shifting is relevant.

that is your 3rd escape,

The answer why Albania has high Atlantic mark is infront of you,
But you still deny to admit it due to a stupid ultra nationalism,

Patriot upper limit is Nationalism
Nationalism upper limit is Ultra Nationalism
Ultra Nationalism upper limit is Blindness and Stupidity

when you understand that, return to the lvl of a patriot,
cause it is value and honor to be one
but it is stupid to be an ultra nationalist

 

[Fatherland]

that is your 3rd escape,

The answer why Albania has high Atlantic mark is infront of you,
But you still deny to admit it due to a stupid ultra nationalism,

Patriot upper limit is Nationalism
Nationalism upper limit is Ultra Nationalism
Ultra Nationalism upper limit is Blindness and Stupidity

when you understand that, return to the lvl of a patriot,
cause it is value to be one
but it is stupid to be an ultra nationalist

Says who? You are suggesting I'm an ultra-nationalist when you have written "Makedonian original" in your profile?
How are you so sure that you are "Makedonian original" when they haven't released any papers on Ancient Macedonian samples yet?

Ancient Macedonians could have been J2b2-L283 + other haplos for all that we know, along with the Mycenaeans and the Illyrians(as recently proven and me).

You are a hypocrite and I have given you too many chances to continue your nonsensical posting.
Finally, welcome to ignore list.

 

[Kingslav]

that is your 3rd escape,

The answer why Albania has high Atlantic mark is infront of you,
But you still deny to admit it due to a stupid ultra nationalism,

Patriot upper limit is Nationalism
Nationalism upper limit is Ultra Nationalism
Ultra Nationalism upper limit is Blindness and Stupidity

when you understand that, return to the lvl of a patriot,
cause it is value and honor to be one
but it is stupid to be an ultra nationalist

Very true words for this forum.

 

[Garrick]

I have already stated Illyrians come from southwest balkans. Specifically Albania. I am quoted for saying this. THRACIANS come from northeast balkans where Thrace was located, and some of the other Slavic members have given solid references to back up this theory.

Problem is that it could not be possible. If you see Greater Illyricum in the Balkans R1b BY611 and PF7563 are nowhere, except something among Albanians (you can notice several carriers in Bulgaria and Romania yet, and beyond Balkans).

If they were Illyrian markers, today whole Balkans would have significant percent these clades.

What is much logical they could came much later, probably from Romania and beyond (any Free Dacian tribe?). We can suppose carriers of BY611 and PF7563 are probably speakers of Albanian and if it is true Albanian is young language in the Balkans. But please I will not discuss this here more because it is moving away from the thread.

 

[Yetos]

Yes, with your bizarre theories.

My points are:
It is not foreign to the Balkans, not anymore than Near-Eastern, West-Asian is.
Check how many times I wrote proto-.
Cetina culture has connections with Bell Beaker culture.
Surviving mtDNA lineages are way more numerous than yDNA in Europe.

You are escaping by putting your own twisted words in my mouth. Don't be sneaky.

TLDR: Albanians have higher Atlantic admixture than Greeks due to our lower West Asian and lower Near Eastern admixture on average.

NO

THAT IS FROM THE WORK OF Volker Heyd university of Zagreb

A possible explanation for this disparity can again be derived from the chronological aspect of those peripheries. Apparently, the emergence of Proto-Cetina coincides with that of ESKK around the 24th century BC, i.e. the middle Bell Beaker period, when in vast parts of Central Europe, as well as in parts of northern Italy, the decorated beakers are increasingly replaced by the so-called accompanying pottery. Genuine Bell Beakers from around 2500 BC on would then be contemporary with the preceding Adriatic variant of the late Vučedol culture, as confirmed by the two ‘beaker derivates’. Further material of the Adriatic Vučedol also shows this Bell Beaker influence, as, for example, the unequivocal comb-stamp decoration on Vučedol vessels from the Vela Špilja and Tradanj Špilja caves, or from Otišić-Vlake. 17 Nevertheless Vučedol does seem to have shown a reserved attitude towards the Bell Beaker phenomenon at first. Only at the transition Vučedol/Proto-Cetina an observable change occurs and those Bell Beaker elements become accepted, even merged with the local tradition to form a new unity. Against this background Proto-Cetina proves to be not only another Bell Beaker periphery, but a syncretistic culture in its own right. Linking it to the Bell Beaker development is also helpful for the understanding of the otherwise rather schematic inner development and chronology of Proto-Cetina/Cetina: numerous stamped decoration in the assemblages, namely with comb-stamp still, might be at the beginning, followed by the classic Cetina vessels among which incised decoration more or less prevail, to be eventually superseded by largely undecorated assemblages like that of Krajicina Spilja on Vis. 18

Also from same work

In the form of the Bell Beaker phenomenon those expansive systems reach their widest extension as now not only the continental West and Northwest, the central and western Mediterranean islands, but even parts of Africa are incorporated. Recent research again calls the Iberian peninsula the starting point of the Bell Beaker phenomenon, repeatedly pointing to the high concentration of monotonously decorated early Bell Beakers in the area of the Tagus river estuary. 2 Several new radiocarbon dates have confirmed the early assignment of the phenomenon on the Iberian peninsula – as early as 2700 BC – and therefore put it in close proximity to the transformational wave that had set the stage for the Corded Ware / Single Grave cultures. However, this might be understood in a way that the respective geographical setting and substrate will materialise in very diverse forms, also taking in exogenous factors. Expanding westwards along the Atlantic and Mediterranean shores in the early 26th century BC and reaching the British islands, northern Italy, Central Europe and the Carpathian basin around or shortly after 2500 BC, the Bell Beaker phenomenon arrives at its peak. This should also be the moment when the underlying ideology and, deriving from that, the typical Bell Beaker package is fully developed. 3 However, not a monolithic block can be discerned, but rather a patchwork of diverse Beaker groups in mutual contact. Another dimension arises from interaction with the sometimes very distinct local cultural groups: at least in the initial phase the Bell Beakers are never self-contained. It seems, that the phenomenon succeeds only in some areas in completely absorbing the autochthonous cultures. What we finally see is an impressively dynamic co-existence of different cultural systems between 2500-2200 BC, until the expansion of the Early Bronze Age establishes a whole new cultural basis.

Vucedol Vatin etc are possibly the proto Myceneans or the Proto NW Greeks,
that is a clear IE culure with same characteristics till troyan war,

the link
http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=10


the problem is that bell beaker in West and central Europe is at least 5 centuries older,
and Vatin Vucocar are considered as the first IE spots or stops in central and West Balkans after the Cotofeni which might be the creation of Thracians.

I suggest read Heyd's work.

it will help your theories,
and open your eyes,
why Albania has Atlantic is obvious and infront of you.

No need to create histories about Alliens

it is 1:20 here I have to go,
I will drive till 1200 m high the mountain to celebrate the shortest night.

 

[Angela]

Now I am off topic?

is that your tactic always?

you named Atlantic which is foreign to Balkans, as local made in balkans
you claim bell beaker
you claimed Cetina river as proto Bell beaker !!!!!!!!
you claim mtDNA connection and matriarchcal lineage connection with Atlantic mark,

you put me in ignore list

Non of these work?

and Now I am off topic and I use an Agenda?

I wonder what your gods have to say about your attitude?

and YES I SAY IT CLEARLY
THE HIGH ATLANTIC MARK IN WEST BALKANS IS NOT LOCAL,
BUT RATHER AN ENTRANCE FROM ROMAN LEGIONS
CRUSADERS
NORMANDS

OR ELSE WHICH I CAN NOT IMAGINE,

Yetos, you can't possibly believe that. Albanians carry y dna lineages that are very low in Crusaders and Normans. I sincerely doubt that the genomic make-up of the Albanians has anything to do with such modern populations. I don't know about Roman input, but Albanians look like a small population originally which then expanded without much if any admixture, so I doubt it was the Romans.

There are documented migrations into the Balkans of Celts, Germanic, etc. in the pre-historic period, which might have more impact on a genome which didn't admix as much if at all with the Slavic speaking migrants.

The descendants of those Slavic speaking migrants got more East Baltic/Northeast Euro type admixture, which changed the proportions a bit.

Imo, I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Has it ever occurred to you guys that if you did a test on all the males in your lineages, other than the direct line, you might find lines that you didn't expect? Someone who carries I2aDin might find E-V13 for example, and vice versa. I think it's important to think about the implications of that.

 

[Yetos]

Yetos, you can't possibly believe that. Albanians carry y dna lineages that are very low in Crusaders and Normans. I sincerely doubt that the genomic make-up of the Albanians has anything to do with such modern populations. I don't know about Roman input, but Albanians look like a small population originally which then expanded without much if any admixture, so I doubt it was the Romans.

There are documented migrations into the Balkans of Celts, Germanic, etc. in the pre-historic period, which might have more impact on a genome which didn't admix as much if at all with the Slavic speaking migrants.

The descendants of those Slavic speaking migrants got more East Baltic/Northeast Euro type admixture, which changed the proportions a bit.

Imo, I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Has it ever occurred to you guys that if you did a test on all the males in your lineages, other than the direct line, you might find lines that you didn't expect? Someone who carries I2aDin might find E-V13 for example, and vice versa. I think it's important to think about the implications of that.

Yes but Albanians carry high Roman Y-DNA.

West Egnatia road is high peak of Aromani and Albanians,
from Thessaloniki to Dyrrachion
and from Nis or Naissos till Dyrrachion the area was full of Roman legions
Nis had more army than Con/polis hershelf.

 

[Fatherland]

Yes but Albanians carry high Roman Y-DNA.

We don't. Even the Latin-speaking Aromanians don't.

R1b-L23 is an Eastern clade of R1b related to Yamnaya. This clade is both common in Albanians, Greeks(especially Peloponnesse), Romanians and to some extent Bulgarians.

Italians have another clade which was common among Romans.

 

[Fatherland]

Yetos, you can't possibly believe that. Albanians carry y dna lineages that are very low in Crusaders and Normans. I sincerely doubt that the genomic make-up of the Albanians has anything to do with such modern populations. I don't know about Roman input, but Albanians look like a small population originally which then expanded without much if any admixture, so I doubt it was the Romans.

There are documented migrations into the Balkans of Celts, Germanic, etc. in the pre-historic period, which might have more impact on a genome which didn't admix as much if at all with the Slavic speaking migrants.

The descendants of those Slavic speaking migrants got more East Baltic/Northeast Euro type admixture, which changed the proportions a bit.

Imo, I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Has it ever occurred to you guys that if you did a test on all the males in your lineages, other than the direct line, you might find lines that you didn't expect? Someone who carries I2aDin might find E-V13 for example, and vice versa. I think it's important to think about the implications of that.

Well said. Some people are trying to come off as psuedo-intellectuals by making things more complex than they really are.

Normans and Goths were mostly I1 as far as I know. Fustan has more info on their specific clades in Albania, but they are a smaller percentage of about 5% I1 or less in total.

 

[Garrick]

I think Maciamo opened the thread in 2013. And honestly it was a fair option.
We are in 2017.
The goal of last wave of discussions was to assess the huge amount of samples from the Mathieson et al paper relative to the topic (origin of i2a-din).
No I2a-Din or ancestor found.

For some people lack of evidence became evidence (?), for some others hope is still there. As said, fair enough.
I promise you that if/when evidence is shown for the balkan origin of I2a-Din, I will be very happy (honestly, better a lost brother than no brother).

I also apologize for all the Albanian fury, but we really got a J2b2 and a pre-EV13 from that paper, so forgive us some 'balcan-style' celebration.
Maybe the next paper will be your turn to celebrate.

I am very pleased that you do not undermine the effort that I-CTS10228 could emerge after bottleneck somewhere in present day Southern Poland, Western Ukraine, Northern Romania and beyond about 300 BC or earlier in any German or Thracian tribe (or mixed) and connected with Sarmatians. It is key for this discussion.

Thracians and Germans could bring this haplogroup to the Balkans in first century AD or something earlier or later. It is not illogical that I-PH908 could emerge somewhere in the Balkans in that time. If it emerged approximately in 150 AD in Illyrian land somewhere in present-day Bosnia or Western Serbia or surrounding it is Illyrian marker. People can make assumptions (based on current knowledge, research, evidence etc), and they will see how real they are when body of knowledge is greater.

 

[Kingslav]

Now everyone getting political all of a sudden. Ok. We are Thraco-Sarmatians. You are Illyro-Thracians mixed with other stuff you are debating with Yetos lol. You branch from us, evidence is Albanczyk is 20% I2A + 10% R1A = 30% Slav markers. Your silly I2A-Slav joke you talk about, 30% I2A-Slav is 1/3 of your genes.

 

[Fustan]

Now everyone getting political all of a sudden. Ok. We are Thraco-Sarmatians. You are Illyro-Thracians mixed with other stuff you are debating with Yetos lol. You branch from us, evidence is Albanczyk is 20% I2A + 10% R1A = 30% Slav markers. Your silly I2A-Slav joke you talk about, 30% I2A-Slav is 1/3 of your genes.

Here are the frequencies in our Y-DNA Project which consists almost entirely of ghegs, who have throughout history, been described as the tallest of the Albanians (and in so, the Balkans).

I2 is around a measly 3.5 percent, and R1a is nowhere to be found.


I2a and R1a is more common of South Albania, mainly due to assimilation of their subdued slavic population.

 

[Angela]

We don't. Even the Latin-speaking Aromanians don't.

R1b-L23 is an Eastern clade of R1b related to Yamnaya. This clade is both common in Albanians, Greeks(especially Peloponnesse), Romanians and to some extent Bulgarians.

Italians have another clade which was common among Romans.

Actually, there's quite a bit of R1b-L23 in Italy, although the cline is south/north, with more in the south than the north. There's a lot of it among Calabrians, for example, but whether some went from Italy to the Balkans as well as perhaps earlier having come from the Balkans to Italy, no one knows.

Obviously, we don't know anything yet about the y dna lineages carried by any of the ancient peoples of Italy because we don't have any published ancient dna yet.

 

[Fatherland]

Actually, there's quite a bit of R1b-L23 in Italy, although the cline is south/north, with more in the south than the north. There's a lot of it among Calabrians, for example, but whether some went from Italy to the Balkans as well as perhaps earlier having come from the Balkans to Italy, no one knows.

Obviously, we don't know anything yet about the y dna lineages carried by any of the ancient peoples of Italy because we don't have any published ancient dna yet.

Indeed. R1b-L23 is the highest in Pontic Greeks of northern Turkey iirc.
I've seen J2b2-L283 in Messapia, perhaps it arrived there with together R1b-L23 with the Illyrians or earlier.
There are also Arbereshe in Italy with those clades.

 

[Kingslav]

I2A is always slavic marker if you have those genes than you part slav.