E-V13 subclades in Greece

[LeBrok]

We in Croatia were Slavs, Dalmatians, Vlachs, Croats, Austrians, Venetians, Hungarians...

But we call ourselves Croats, today Italians call as Slavs but we are Croats, if Albania is mentioned for the first time let's say year 1328. that does not mean that Albanians have not lived there thousand years earlier, only then some people call them Illyrians, Chinese or Afghans. But these are same people in the same place.

Now you are referring only to genetic aspect of ethnicity. I'm fine with this. And to be on same wavelength you need to agree that at some point they became genetical Albanians. Genetically very close to what they represent now. In this case we would need to agree that they formed sometime in Bronze Age or maybe in Iron Age, when IE population who came from the Steppe or Anatolia mixed with farmer population of Balkans. Or perhaps, the truth is that the "final" Albanians only popped up in Early Medieval times when they mixed with wave of Slavs?

 

[davef]

I never really understood the hype behind y-DNA. As said, it's a tiny part of the genome.

 

[LeBrok]

If you have same subclade as they have in Nigeria then you are brothers by male line, what haplotype has to do with color of the skin, language, size of skull, etc.

Please take your time to formulate thoughtful answers, and don't try to create your own definition of "a brother". We are not going to get to far in understanding of issues at hand.

 

[hrvat22]

Please take your time to formulate thoughtful answers, and don't try to create your own definition of "a brother". We are not going to get to far in understanding of issues at hand.

If Serbs and Albanians live couple meters away from each other and have same E1b subclade are they brothers by male line? Yes, they are.. what's the problem?

Do you know Serbian history?, but not one from a crystal ball.

When some power (medieval Serbian state) stretched over Albanian areas it is logical that local population is assimilated, and it is now evident in genetics.

It's not a science fiction.

 

[Johane Derite]

I never really understood the hype behind y-DNA. As said, it's a tiny part of the genome.

Well, quantitatively it's a tiny part of the genome. Qualitatively the Y chromosome is EXTREMELY significant however. This single chromosome codes for 50% of all sexual dimporphism. The forces of selection do not act in accordance with how big it is compared to others. The pupil of the eye accounts for a very small percentage of the surface area of the human body, whereas the armpit has a much higher percentage, therefore it must be more important?Quantitative judgements mean nothing if the issue is a qualitative one.Sorry if I come across as too invested, but this fallacy happens all the time here.

 

[Garrick]

I know that now something what I will say will be strongly criticized by one part of the members. There are two options: to be silent and wait that one day someone else exposes this or to say. Responsibility exists and also reverence. Forming Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians since 6th century were processes which happened at the same time and these processes are parts of same big process shaping the Balkans. Thracians and Illyrians are completely Romanized earlier, in 2-3 century, practically they adopt Latin and have ceased to exist as political entities except two areas in Thracian world (label them n and m) which scientists determined precisely. The oldest in the Balkans in terms of the people (nation in modern term) are the Greeks, because they are formed much earlier. People and tribes had impact on each others, especially in terms migrations, progressions, and withdrawals, of course there were a lot of others impacts including haplogroups. Now we can have question impacts on forming Albanians. Some Greeks are assimilated in that processes, they lived mostly in some coastal regions of today’s Albania what is logical, where is seaside someone can find Greeks. Descendants of Romanized Illyrians and some descendants of Romans and people from present day Italy, all of them spoke Latin, assimilated too. Serbs could have any impact, Serbian lands have changed and encompassed areas of today’s Albania. Process of forming of Romanians was complex, there were a lot of newcomers, but Latin language is retained, but in region n out of Romanized Dacia in Carpathian and wider surrounding lived Free Dacians, Carpi and Costoboces, and they saved their original language. They migrated towards south and almost surely (maybe even they were elite) had participation in areas of present day Albania but unfortunately in their homeland Carpi completely extinct, also probably Costoboces, and there are no their descendants in today's Romania. Only samples from time when Free Dacians lived in their area can give us right picture about their contribution today's Albanian population in terms of haplogroups. And we know that Bulgarians had biggest impact. Bulgarian Slavs pushed tribes from area m which is not Romanized (which is very precisely determined in today's Bulgaria) to areas in today's Albania. Bulgarians ruled of area in present day Albania several centuries. Who wants she or he can analyze Bulgarian and Albanian haplogroups and can relatively easy determine similarities. And determine which haplogroup was dominant among Shqipetarët elite and responsible for Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) in time when they came from m to areas of today’s Albania and assimilated local population. (And there are mixed n-m opinions about Free Dacians who moved under pressures from n to m mixed with locals in m in today’s Bulgaria and, pushed from Bulgarians, came to areas in today's Albania). And Albanians slower became integrated people compared to others because they didn’t have dynasty.

 

[davef]

Well, quantitatively it's a tiny part of the genome. Qualitatively the Y chromosome is EXTREMELY significant however. This single chromosome codes for 50% of all sexual dimporphism. The forces of selection do not act in accordance with how big it is compared to others. The pupil of the eye accounts for a very small percentage of the surface area of the human body, whereas the armpit has a much higher percentage, therefore it must be more important?Quantitative judgements mean nothing if the issue is a qualitative one.Sorry if I come across as too invested, but this fallacy happens all the time here.

Well ok that's interesting and reasonable. I like the analogy, that's clever.

 

[Nik]

I know that now something what I will say will be strongly criticized by one part of the members. There are two options: to be silent and wait that one day someone else exposes this or to say. Responsibility exists and also reverence. Forming Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians since 6th century were processes which happened at the same time and these processes are parts of same big process shaping the Balkans. Thracians and Illyrians are completely Romanized earlier, in 2-3 century, practically they adopt Latin and have ceased to exist as political entities except two areas in Thracian world (label them n and m) which scientists determined precisely. The oldest in the Balkans in terms of the people (nation in modern term) are the Greeks, because they are formed much earlier. People and tribes had impact on each others, especially in terms migrations, progressions, and withdrawals, of course there were a lot of others impacts including haplogroups. Now we can have question impacts on forming Albanians. Some Greeks are assimilated in that processes, they lived mostly in some coastal regions of today’s Albania what is logical, where is seaside someone can find Greeks. Descendants of Romanized Illyrians and some descendants of Romans and people from present day Italy, all of them spoke Latin, assimilated too. Serbs could have any impact, Serbian lands have changed and encompassed areas of today’s Albania. Process of forming of Romanians was complex, there were a lot of newcomers, but Latin language is retained, but in region n out of Romanized Dacia in Carpathian and wider surrounding lived Free Dacians, Carpi and Costoboces, and they saved their original language. They migrated towards south and almost surely (maybe even they were elite) had participation in areas of present day Albania but unfortunately in their homeland Carpi completely extinct, also probably Costoboces, and there are no their descendants in today's Romania. Only samples from time when Free Dacians lived in their area can give us right picture about their contribution today's Albanian population in terms of haplogroups. And we know that Bulgarians had biggest impact. Bulgarian Slavs pushed tribes from area m which is not Romanized (which is very precisely determined in today's Bulgaria) to areas in today's Albania. Bulgarians ruled of area in present day Albania several centuries. Who wants she or he can analyze Bulgarian and Albanian haplogroups and can relatively easy determine similarities. And determine which haplogroup was dominant among Shqipetarët elite and responsible for Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) in time when they came from m to areas of today’s Albania and assimilated local population. (And there are mixed n-m opinions about Free Dacians who moved under pressures from n to m mixed with locals in m in today’s Bulgaria and, pushed from Bulgarians, came to areas in today's Albania). And Albanians slower became integrated people compared to others because they didn’t have dynasty.

Again the BS that 100% of Illyrians and Thracians were Latinised. As if the Romans conducted a full scale study on the languages spoken in the Balkans and were even able to rule out cases of bilingualism. Just food for thought (for others, not Garrick), the Thracian Bessi were believed to have retained their language until late. That is an indicator that it could have been the case with many highland clans/tribes or as I said earlier, many could have been bilingual. As for the other crap of Carpi assimilating the locals in modern Albania: 1) How come Albanians have Latin influence since BC? 2) Who assimilated the Albanian speaking locals in modern Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro? They're quite far from modern Albania. 3) How come the Carpi and Dorians shared similar words?I don't aim to convince you Garrick, because it is clear that you dont want to be convinced as it doesn't fit your agenda, the agenda you've been developing in your head since you were a kid. You seem to weak to finally wake up after decades of hating and judging Albanians and say "I was wrong the whole time. They are indeed indigenous in the Balkans (not Carpathians)".

 

[blevins13]

I know that now something what I will say will be strongly criticized by one part of the members. There are two options: to be silent and wait that one day someone else exposes this or to say. Responsibility exists and also reverence. Forming Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians since 6th century were processes which happened at the same time and these processes are parts of same big process shaping the Balkans. Thracians and Illyrians are completely Romanized earlier, in 2-3 century, practically they adopt Latin and have ceased to exist as political entities except two areas in Thracian world (label them n and m) which scientists determined precisely. The oldest in the Balkans in terms of the people (nation in modern term) are the Greeks, because they are formed much earlier. People and tribes had impact on each others, especially in terms migrations, progressions, and withdrawals, of course there were a lot of others impacts including haplogroups. Now we can have question impacts on forming Albanians. Some Greeks are assimilated in that processes, they lived mostly in some coastal regions of today’s Albania what is logical, where is seaside someone can find Greeks. Descendants of Romanized Illyrians and some descendants of Romans and people from present day Italy, all of them spoke Latin, assimilated too. Serbs could have any impact, Serbian lands have changed and encompassed areas of today’s Albania. Process of forming of Romanians was complex, there were a lot of newcomers, but Latin language is retained, but in region n out of Romanized Dacia in Carpathian and wider surrounding lived Free Dacians, Carpi and Costoboces, and they saved their original language. They migrated towards south and almost surely (maybe even they were elite) had participation in areas of present day Albania but unfortunately in their homeland Carpi completely extinct, also probably Costoboces, and there are no their descendants in today's Romania. Only samples from time when Free Dacians lived in their area can give us right picture about their contribution today's Albanian population in terms of haplogroups. And we know that Bulgarians had biggest impact. Bulgarian Slavs pushed tribes from area m which is not Romanized (which is very precisely determined in today's Bulgaria) to areas in today's Albania. Bulgarians ruled of area in present day Albania several centuries. Who wants she or he can analyze Bulgarian and Albanian haplogroups and can relatively easy determine similarities. And determine which haplogroup was dominant among Shqipetarët elite and responsible for Albanian language (Gjuha Shqipe) in time when they came from m to areas of today’s Albania and assimilated local population. (And there are mixed n-m opinions about Free Dacians who moved under pressures from n to m mixed with locals in m in today’s Bulgaria and, pushed from Bulgarians, came to areas in today's Albania). And Albanians slower became integrated people compared to others because they didn’t have dynasty.

Probably from the Serbian prospective it make sense....can you identify what type of Y-dna was brought by Carpi in the Balkans that is present in modern Albanians....


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[MOESAN]

No.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC from Anatalia.

It means E1b-L618, 5485 BC and R1b-Z2103, 2725 BC have nothing with Illyrians.

Illyrians formed 1200 BC, some source claims 1000 BC, some sources 1500 BC, it doesn't matter.

From these three samples only J2b2-L283 could be Mycenaean or Proto-Illyrian, we had polemics and you told that sample is child, I know but and Mycenaeans could have children.

I have no point to date about Illyrians (It spite me). But for reasoning: what among these 3 dates of apparition of a tiny sample ('tiny' is a gentle word here) allow you to think Illyrians - supposed formed about the 1200 BC - had only (possibly) Y-J2b2-L283 ancestors? We are speaking here of a region of Europe and a time when the clans "mono-Y-haplo" seemed disappearing or already disappeared: what proves you (and others) Proto-Illyrians had not incorporated other tribes - predecessors - with other Y-lineages??? The same for other tribes or "nations" of those times.
Or I have not understood your reasoning an d the excuse me.

 

[rafc]

I see I'm quoted a few times in this thread. I'm happy there's such a big interest in V13! I would say at this point that the origins of V13 and CTS5856 are very likely in Southern Balkans, but whether it was the Eastern or Western is still an open question. The fact that one of the two V13 subclades, PH1246, has been found in the Western Balkans and Greece and not in the Eastern Balkans might suggest that the latter is less likely. PH1246 has been found in clans from the border of Montenegro and Albania, and at first glance they seemed unrelated. Now however it seems they might have splitted later than we thought. but it's also worth noting that haplogroup diversity is higher in Bulgaria (and some cases, Greece) as a lot of smaller subclades of CTS5856 have been found in Bulgaria. Off course all of this might have been influenced by later events. As long as we don't get any Ancient DNA we'll keep guessing. But given the recent research project I have high hopes. I also know of an upcoming study that will be very helpful to better understand the distribution of Albanian haplogroups, but unfortunately we won't have the same details from other regions to compare.

As the thread is specifically about Greece I'll add that a lot of different subclades are found in Greece. Some seem more typical for Greece and show a large correlation to Greek colonisation: Z16663 and BY6527. Despite being rare in other parts of the Balkans we know of Z16663 in Pontic Greeks, Greeks from Asia Minor, and also from Sicily.

 

[Trojet]

I also know of an upcoming study that will be very helpful to better understand the distribution of Albanian haplogroups, but unfortunately we won't have the same details from other regions to compare.

Hi Rafc. Do you know any details about this Albanian Y-haplogroup study. Also, is it perhaps going to be NGS?

 

[rafc]

Hi Rafc. Do you know any details about this Albanian Y-haplogroup study. Also, is it perhaps going to be NGS?

Sadly, no NGS. But I have to correct myself as the study will in fact have data from Greece, Sicily and Southern Italy also. After this study was published: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4?WT.feed_name=subjects_genetics I contacted the author about the detailed results as I know the geno 2.0 chip covers Y-SNPs. She told me they were still working on the Y dna results which I assume means a follow up article. While the Geno 2.0 doesn't cover some important clades (like S7461) it at least covers some V13 subclades. It will also be useful to see the J2 and R1b-Z2103 results. I have no idea when the article might be published.

 

[Garrick]

If you have same subclade as they have in Nigeria then you are brothers by male line, what haplotype has to do with color of the skin, language, size of skull, etc.

When someone knows context (#206) dice are easy to stack.

Carriers of E-V13 in these hills, about you speak, if they were there, they were Romanized till 3^rd century and they spoke Latin, that there were no later changes and newcomers, they would be probably Italians today.

Things changed 6-9 century.

Who assimilated bearers of older or younger subclades, who cares.

Bulgarians were superpower, everyone can see in 9-10th century which big territory they had, they had a key influence on relocation Albanians (Shqiptarët ) from an area in Bulgaria (scientists very precisely determined this area) to present day Albania.

Bulgarian empire 9-10 century

 

[Leka]

How can you be so sure about this? It is a common knowledge that IE languages were attested in Anatolia before they existed in Balkans. If they really moved into Balkans, we don't know that, but technically it is very likely.

Just because they were attested there first doesn't necessarily mean they existed there before, or that they made their way into the Balkans from Anatolia. Steppe groups started making their way into the Balkans way before they were ever attested there, just judging by the material culture - let alone now even solidly confirmed by the R1b-Z2103 Vucedol sample dating to early bronze age (2725 BC).

 

[Nik]

When someone knows context (#206) dice are easy to stack.

Carriers of E-V13 in these hills, about you speak, if they were there, they were Romanized till 3^rd century and they spoke Latin, that there were no later changes and newcomers, they would be probably Italians today.

Things changed 6-9 century.

Who assimilated bearers of older or younger subclades, who cares.

Bulgarians were superpower, everyone can see in 9-10th century which big territory they had, they had a key influence on relocation Albanians (Shqiptarët ) from an area in Bulgaria (scientists very precisely determined this area) to present day Albania.

Bulgarian empire 9-10 century

Every month you become a fanatic supporter of some new theory you read who-knows-where

But there's no way you will accept the easiest explanation possible even though E-V13, J2b2, and R1b make up around 90% of Albania's haplogroups.

These Bulgarian led Carpi of yours must have been some highly civilized and influential bunch of max 1000 people that spread their culture and language through diffusion, or they were God like fighters that subdued hundreds of thousands in a matter of months that historiographers didn't even notice them.

Hey where is this place in Bulgaria that our usurpers come from? And when and where did they settle first, North, Central, or South Albania?

 

[Garrick]

Every month you become a fanatic supporter of some new theory you

read who-knows-where

But there's no way you will accept the easiest explanation possible even though E-V13, J2b2, and R1b make up around 90% of Albania's haplogroups.

These Bulgarian led Carpi of yours must have been some highly civilized and influential bunch of max 1000 people that spread their culture and language through diffusion, or they were God like fighters that subdued hundreds of thousands in a matter of months that historiographers didn't even notice them.

Hey where is this place in Bulgaria that our usurpers come from? And when and where did they settle first, North, Central, or South Albania?

No.

Scientists determined long ago and new scientific papers confirmed.

For Albanians (Sqiptarët) who spoke Albanian (Gjuha Sqipe) are possible only two locations from which they came to present day Albania (in the second of half of first millennium).

m: an area in Bulgaria (confirmed in genetics term, Albanians have relatives in Bulgaria)

n: Moldova area in Romania and surrounding (in parts of Ukraine and Moldavia), area of Free
Dacians (it is not confirmed genetically because all Free Dacians extinct from their areas, their descendants could be found maybe in other locations in the Balkans, Hungary, or Italy but the best way is to determine their haplogroup samples in the epoch when they lived in their historical areas and compare with Albanians)

So, we know using multidisciplinary approach Albanians (Shqiptarët) came from an area in Bulgaria, but we don’t know yet if Carpi (and maybe Costoboces) participated in Albanians.

(More time say again I don’t use Serbian sources, and nothing about what I write is from Serbian literature, Serbian researchers are mostly globalists and not interested for national threads, there are lot good papers for example about development of tolerance toward diversity or history of different groups in society what is very good for democracy but cannot be using in these threads.)

 

[Leka]

No.

Scientists determined long ago and new scientific papers confirmed.

For Albanians (Sqiptarët) who spoke Albanian (Gjuha Sqipe) are possible only two locations from which they came to present day Albania (in the second of half of first millennium).

m: an area in Bulgaria (confirmed in genetics term, Albanians have relatives in Bulgaria)

n: Moldova area in Romania and surrounding (in parts of Ukraine and Moldavia), area of Free
Dacians (it is not confirmed genetically because all Free Dacians extinct from their areas, their descendants could be found maybe in other locations in the Balkans, Hungary, or Italy but the best way is to determine their haplogroup samples in the epoch when they lived in their historical areas and compare with Albanians)

So, we know using multidisciplinary approach Albanians (Shqiptarët) came from an area in Bulgaria, but we don’t know yet if Carpi (and maybe Costoboces) participated in Albanians.

(More time say again I don’t use Serbian sources, and nothing about what I write is from Serbian literature, Serbian researchers are mostly globalists and not interested for national threads, there are lot good papers for example about development of tolerance toward diversity or history of different groups in society what is very good for democracy but cannot be using in these threads.)

Oh yeah, confirmed you say, can we see the data how they have confirmed it? So Serbian 'scientists' seem to have finally settled for Bulgaria. I guess as long as it's not Kosova/Albania/Montenegro or any other region predating their arrival makes sense to them.

 

[Nik]

No.

Scientists determined long ago and new scientific papers confirmed.

For Albanians (Sqiptarët) who spoke Albanian (Gjuha Sqipe) are possible only two locations from which they came to present day Albania (in the second of half of first millennium).

m: an area in Bulgaria (confirmed in genetics term, Albanians have relatives in Bulgaria)

n: Moldova area in Romania and surrounding (in parts of Ukraine and Moldavia), area of Free
Dacians (it is not confirmed genetically because all Free Dacians extinct from their areas, their descendants could be found maybe in other locations in the Balkans, Hungary, or Italy but the best way is to determine their haplogroup samples in the epoch when they lived in their historical areas and compare with Albanians)

So, we know using multidisciplinary approach Albanians (Shqiptarët) came from an area in Bulgaria, but we don’t know yet if Carpi (and maybe Costoboces) participated in Albanians.

(More time say again I don’t use Serbian sources, and nothing about what I write is from Serbian literature, Serbian researchers are mostly globalists and not interested for national threads, there are lot good papers for example about development of tolerance toward diversity or history of different groups in society what is very good for democracy but cannot be using in these threads.)

Say hi to our relatives in Bulgaria.

Bye.

 

[Nik]

Oh yeah, confirmed you say, can we see the data how they have confirmed it? So Serbian 'scientists' seem to have finally settled for Bulgaria. I guess as long as it's not Kosova/Albania/Montenegro or any other region predating their arrival makes sense to them.

He's basically sure that all Illyrians were Latinized but some Thracians in Bulgaria weren't either Latinized nor Hellenized. Very convenient.

He can sleep quietly as long as Albanians are anything but Illyrians, otherwise we can claim "his" lands.