Anatolian Hypothesis: Lord Renfrew still a partial holdout

[APO276]

The only thing is: Mycenaeans never came directly from the Yamna. They were not Yamna. Their language is way too diverged from PIE to be even considered as a "late dialect of PIE", and their material culture is decidedly not Yamna, but certainly steppe-influenced and perhaps steppe-derived.

How do you know that? What languages were less diverged?

 

[IronSide]

Is that a serious question?

It matters a hell of a lot to people like Davidski and this poster and practically everyone on idiotic forums like Stormfront and other racist sites.

How long have you been involved in this hobby, anyway? How could you not know that?

Well, I can say that I now know a lot more than when I first started reading about population genetics, and the first source of knowledge to me was Maciamo's articles on R1b,R1a, Indo-Europeans, and Yamnaya. He frequently associated red and blonde hair to the IE horse riding conquerors, and still does.

In my naivety I thought that was science, irrefutable facts. And so I believed it, before learning that Maciamo is a mortal and not every word he writes is truth.

I was asking why do they still want them to be blonde after we learned Yamnaya's complexion from the samples collected ? why does it matter so much to them ? Nazis ? or is it because of their insecurity and they want something to be proud of ? why should we care about them or what Davidski believes ?

And even in the case that they were blonde, what does it matter, its a trait like any other, I don't see the problem with that, if a future sample turns out to be blonde will that automatically prove them right ?

****** feed on attention, and the pseudo-science they believe in doesn't deserve any.

 

[Ygorcs]

How do you know that? What languages were less diverged?

All languages are too diverged, especially if the language in point is spoken some 2,000-2,500 years later than the earliest estimates for the first stages of its parent language. Or do you honestly believe that Mycenaeans spoke a language not too far diverged from PIE itself?
I know it because that is what all languages go through after some time: they become too diverged to be mere similar dialects of the once common language, but become fully fledged languages that are siblings to each other. The reconstruction for Proto-Greek is already a clearly distinct language, and a clearly distinct language in relation to even LPIE wouldn't have been born immediately after it. It requires some centuries to develop and become clearly distinctive. Mind you, that happened with all IE languages, so no need to feel hurted in your nationalistic feelings.

 

[APO276]

All languages are too diverged. I know it because that is what all languages go through after some time: they become too diverged to be mere similar dialects of the once common language, but become fully fledged languages that are siblings to each other. The reconstruction for Proto-Greek is already a clearly distinct language, and a clearly distinct language in relation to even LPIE wouldn't have been born immediately after it. It requires some centuries to develop and become clearly distinctive. Mind you, that happened with all IE languages, so no need to feel hurted in your nationalistic feelings.

You wrote it was 'way too diverged'. Try to quantify that and you will see it isn't possible because we lack important data, for example concerning its typology. The way you write it now is more acceptable.

Concerning kw->p Aeolic Greek treated 'labiovelars' like P-Celtic and Sabellic (but for some reason not in the case of 'ikkos')
[I don't write that to support Yetos, I don't know what he means and I probably disagree]

 

[Promenade]

Correct, especially considering the fact that the Hunters and Gatherers in the Balkans have a genetic profilewhich shares some with EHG. So what we see here as "Steppe" ancestry could very well be Balkan H&G ancestry dripping into a Farmer population (Minoans) from the west while at the same time CHG ancestry was arriving in Greece through Anatolia.

Another possibility is that a population very Armenia_BA like (predominantly CHG with some EHG admixture) moved into Greece and mixed with the Myceneans in this case the population size of these Indo European arrivals must have been more significant.

And than is the theory that a group directly from Yamnaya moved into Greece and this group must have been only a seventh of the size of the locals. I don't know if it is realistic to believe that a goup of only a seventh the size could have such a impact. Especially considering the fact that back in time the technological advantage in warfare can't have been that huge. The only way this theory could work in my eyes is when the IE didn't arrive in Greece from Yamnaya but a culture nearby in "chinese whisper" fashion. And this culture must have been predominantly Anatolian_Neo themselves.

The second theory has the advantage that it would be much more realistical for people to imagine a large enough group influencing another group to speak their language and adapt some of their culture.

I mean even if you take some of the more prominent cases of Elite dominance in history. The Elite group was at least 1/3 of the size of the locals. See Turks (whom's linguistic ancestors would resemble Qashgai or at least Turkmens) or Iberians in America. The only cases where Elite dominance worked with a much smaller size of people started during and after the Industrialization, when the gap in technology had risen significantly.

And than if there is any case of Elite dominance coming from a Yamnaya type of group. Why would these Elite guys belong to the paternal line of the locals?

I think the first theory here is rather farfetched since there were no Balkan HGs around the time of the Mycenaeans and the Balkans HGs themselves were mostly derived from WHG ancestry. We would see a lot greater increase in WHG ancestry rather than EHG if there was actual intermingling, but even by the chalcolithic the genetic profile of the Balkans was not one of WHGs with some EHG, but EEF derived farmers with minute traces of both. The resurgence of HG ancestry could not explain it either since this is an event that occured during the chalcolithic.

In the bronze age we see the expansion of Yamnaya like ancestry into the balkans and it would make sense for this expansion to have eventually reached Greece as well. The Yamnaya ancestry in the balkans also increased from the early to the late bronze age so population movement was occuring north to south in the area up until the appearance of the Mycenaeans. The fourth option would be that a late neolithic/bronze age group with Yamnya ancestry entered Greece from the balkans or from central Europe and not directly from the steppe and the Lazaridis paper also mentions this as one of the two most likely options along with the Armenian model.

As for the elite burials I believe it gives more credence to the Armenian model since J2 is not infrequent in Anatolia and modern Armenia, but so far we only have a single grave among them and J2 has been found in neolithic as well as bronze age Hungary too. In all likelyhood though the Mycenaean elties were no different from the regular Mycenaeans in terms of y-haplogroups and autosomal ancestry.

 

[Promenade]

If this true, maybe original Indo-European lands was around rivers of modern Russia and then later migrate to Persia, Central Asia or what is explaination modern Pashtuns, Tajiks, Iranics with blonde hair and light eyes mutation?

As we know IJ Haplogroup (farmers) were darker types from Middle East

As far as I know light hair is associated with EHGs mostly and not the early steppe populations, yamnaya were fairly dark. I remember the paper about mesolithic Scandinavia saying how the EHGs brought light hair and skin while the WHGs brought blue eyes. Even today we see the baltics and other places with high EHG ancestry also associated with light hair. Since WHGs did not have light hair blondism may originate with whatever ANE derived population contributed to the EHGs.

 

[halfalp]

Btw, Yamnaya culture encompass a vaste territory bigger than France for the exemple. Do you really think that 100 genomes that lack Blonde or Red hairs mutations in a population that would encompass thousands of people... I mean some of you are sour heads but celts were redheads for some, udmurts are redhairs, chinese depicted tocharians as redhairs. So without genetic studies we know that some of the Yamnayan population was redhaired, nuff' said.

 

[Modernancientdna]

Btw, Yamnaya culture encompass a vaste territory bigger than France for the exemple. Do you really think that 100 genomes that lack Blonde or Red hairs mutations in a population that would encompass thousands of people... I mean some of you are sour heads but celts were redheads for some, udmurts are redhairs, chinese depicted tocharians as redhairs. So without genetic studies we know that some of the Yamnayan population was redhaired, nuff' said.

Bumpskiiiii

 

[halfalp]

Blonde hair is Slavic though, so if you born with blonde and then fades to dark then guess you have some Slavic ancestors.

Blonde hair is older than the slavic ethnogenesis.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Blonde hair is Slavic though, so if you born with blonde and then fades to dark then guess you have some Slavic ancestors.

only eastern Europeans I guess
a lot of western Europeans have the same feature
it is more widespread than just Slavic

 

[halfalp]

Btw have some social justice warriors as moderator and contributors kills the purpose of the site, but whatever... apparently if horse riders like yamnayan were blonde or redhaired it's a problem but when horse riders like andronovo are legitimally blonde, well it's not europe ? so whatever...

 

[halfalp]

I was making a point that if neo nazis and klansmen find out that blondism was brought to Europe by the farmers, they would go into freak out mode because anything to do with the Middle East is rotten to them and their bigoted selves.

I mean... do you understand that, it's more your fantasme that Middle-Easterners turns to be the origin of Blonde hair, and not the inverse. Don't twist things for passing for the good guy, you are the one who shows an hate against a groupe ( neonazis, pejoratif term that you use for encompass a lot of different " white " people i guess " ) so you should be more prudent in the futur, and stop to follow Angela in every thing she says it start to become very lame.

 

[Modernancientdna]

Bumpskiiiii

 

[Yetos]

Then why didn't this change affect ALL *kw as it did in those few Celtic and Italic languages? The answer is that, regardless of when and where this change occurred in Greek dialects, it was a different, more restrictive sound change, and one possibly triggered by different phonological phenomena. After all, it occurred only before [a] and [o]. This is not the "fashion" of P-Celtic nor P-Italic languages, but a different process leading to similar results only in some words, but not in others (see "tis", "lukos" >>>> not, "pis", "lupus"). I'm not saying this change did not happen, and I'm glad you informed us when it happened, before Attic Greek (here I was just repeating what Papadimitriou had taught us some messages back in this same topic) and in fact still in late Homeric periods. But, still, I repeat: it's not the same change that happened in Celtic and Italic languages only much later (during the early Iron Age they were still Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic, all of them with *kw), and all these changes are at least 1,500 years too late to have anything to do with Yamna, even in its latest stages.

Notice
Greek wolf Λυκος and very primitive Δακος (Dacos-Dac compare dog, δηγμα=bite marks δαγκωνω=Ι bite dagunu)
Greek fox Αλωπηξ-γος and Αλωπεκη (Alupix-Αlupeke)

dacia and Lycaonia is the same to Greek, land of wolfs

 

[Alan]

Nobody still believes Mycenaeans came directly from Yamna. They are at least one milennium too young for that. What is discussed is where the Yamna-derived (linguistically and at least partly genetically) people lived before they conquered Greece and lent it their language and some of its customs. This expansion was not straight out from the steppe, but more like a gradual dispersal followed by mixing and dilution events, genetic and linguistic substrates, appearance of new cultural and genetic syntheses in new social communities - and only then, from these new societies, other rounds of expansions and dispersals. It was not one common star-shaped event, but an expansion through more than 1,000 years. But still the ultimate source is there at the Yamna horizon. To miss this necessary differentiation would be like claiming that the Americans can't possibly speak a Germanic language because it is so obvious that their ancestors' language and culture did not come mostly from Scandinavia (its ultimate source, urheimat), but from the British Isles, ignoring all the historic processes that happened in between for some 1,100 years before the conquest of the present USA.

But you are ignoring the fact that opposite to these Myceneans the Americas that speak a German language share at least 1/3 of their ancestry from these very Germanic people that brought their language there. And importantly this Elite Dominance is also mirrored in their yDNA that is in far higher percentage compared to local yDNA.

You have at best 15% Steppe ancestry with local Minoan yDNA. And this is also mirrored in the fact that the sample with "most" Steppe admixture was actually a female.

The only two explanations are it either didn't come from the steppes. And if it did the source population in these Steppes must have been quite different genetically to Yamnaya. And we have DNA from any culture that followes Yamnaya in the territory like Poltavka and Srubna and non of them had a significantly different genetic signature, We only see a rise of Ana-Neo but not enough. (But CT maybe? though the yDNA of CT is different)

 

[Alan]

I think the first theory here is rather farfetched since there were no Balkan HGs around the time of the Mycenaeans and the Balkans HGs themselves were mostly derived from WHG ancestry. We would see a lot greater increase in WHG ancestry rather than EHG if there was actual intermingling, but even by the chalcolithic the genetic profile of the Balkans was not one of WHGs with some EHG, but EEF derived farmers with minute traces of both. The resurgence of HG ancestry could not explain it either since this is an event that occured during the chalcolithic.

By Bronze Age some Balkan H&G ancestry would still have survived in the Balkans. That doesn't need H&G themselves to survive in the region. And those Balkan H&G were pretty much WHG with some ANE like admixture. Some people even described them as quite similar to SHG.

 

[APO276]

In Mathieson's study Balkans Chalcolithic and Malak Preslavets appear to have some 'EHG', mostly without any 'Yamnaya' admixture.

 

[Yetos]

Ok
that is to all

Gedrosian Vs Caucasus

Gedrosian

''

I was recently looking at the K12a spreadsheet for the participants of the Dodecad proect and I've noticed that R1b frequencies and the Caucasus admixture are totally unrelated in Northwestern Europe. If the proto IE carrying R1b M269 or R1b L11 really originated around the Black sea area we would expect a higher rate of Caucasus component than the Gedrosia one for the British or Basque people for instance. But the Irish in the Dodecad project have 1,5% of Caucasus and 9,5% of Gedrosia and the French Basque have 0,1% of Caucasus vs 7,6% of Gedrosia.
As we know, the Basque do have really low frequencies of "neolithic haplogroup" such as G2a, EV13, J1, T etc. we can conclude that the Caucasus component (only 0,1% among French Basque but 22,3% for Otzi) only represents the neolithic legacy of men carying G2a, EV13, J1 etc.
So we have the caucasus admixture related to Neolithic farmers and R1b somewhat related to the Gedrosia admixture in Northwestern Europe (and in the Basque country).
It really looks like R1b men came to Europe directly from an area East of the Caspian sea without settling around the Black sea area (Maykopp etc) .

and

I have found another analogy for a Basque-Lithuanian-Finnic comparison:

Lithuanians have 8% Caucasian and 0% Gedrosian.
Basques have 0% Caucasian and 9.8% Gedrosian - opposite percentages.
Finns have 1.3 Caucasian and 0.9 Gedrosian - almost none.

I'd be tempted to conclude that "Gedrosian" represents Centum-IE and "Caucasian" Satem-IE, but it does not explain why Basques don't speak IE despite having the same Gedrosian percentage as neighboring countries. OTH, one could also ask how could 10% Gedrosian manage to change the native languages. Or maybe this musing is just too simplistic.

Actually there is enough eastern genetic impact on the fringes of western europe, namely the Gedrosian component, and I'm trying to explain it by the IE centum language, not the other way round. The Indo-Europeanization of western europe would be the most likely explanation. But this theory does not answer some questions for western europe:


1. Why caucasus component is missing at the same time?


- Spongetaro suggested that these assumed IE people probably did not stay in the pontic steppe for a longer time.
- I further conclude that they probably did not stay much longer in the Hallstatt-LaTéne region too.


2. Why are the Basques a stronghold of Gedrosian component?


Speculations:
- either because their matriarchal system was able preserve the old native language.
- ,or because Gedrosian component is not only indo-european. It could have partially became associated with turkic speakers (close to Tocharian area) or sumerian (possibly close to original pre-Babylonian IE language origin).


This puzzles me. But probably we don't have enough data to derive plausible answers.

So now I ask the genetists,
HOW much Caucasian component had Yamnaa?

I think that is a good point to start seperate the terms caucasian and steppe and out of India (gedrosia) theory

 

[Yetos]

@ygorcs

Yodization the replace of Djot with Yiot
Djot in Alphabet has a symbol of thunder and is sound was J

South Slavic comparing with other Slavic show yodization
Greek is full of yodization
concerning Thracian I see the word kalamindar and not kalamjdar
that is probably the reason S Slavic adopted yiot

letter ι yiot is not e in Greek but has laryngeal aspiration infront h γ (a kind of w sound)
But not a g
about the B G D it is known even in Attic by Kratinos the Athenean
as I posted before

But about Mycenean ikkos and Greek ippos
has nothing to do with Attic which is a separate evolution of Ionic

cause Mycenean horsemen e-ge-ta ικετες
in Homer can be found as επετες

So Q->P change started after 1200 BC and ended before Hesiodos

Mycenean is not the proto-Greek, but a component
it is one of many components of Greek that start around 1000-900 BC
and Mycenean is seperated from LIE around 2500 BC
that date is considered as the mark of Mycenean separation/evolution

Homeric poetry is called epos, not ikos
bravery of epetes not iketes

 

[alexfritz]

Yamnaya_Samara (mathieson et al qpAdm)
4.1.2:EHG49.7 CHG50.3 / 4.1.3:WHG2.8 EHG47 CHG50.1
Yamnaya_Ukraine
4.1.2:EHG46.5 CHG53.5 / 4.1.3:WHG3.5 EHG44.1 CHG52.4
Vucedol / Corded_Ware_Germany (autosomes)
5.3:WHG5.2 AN67.4 Yamnaya27.5 / WHG10.9 AN20.2 Yamnaya69.1
Vucedol / Corded_Ware_Germany (X-chr)
5.3:WHG-5 AN130 Yamnaya-25 / WHG25 AN26 Yamnaya49