Anatolian Hypothesis: Lord Renfrew still a partial holdout

[Aaron1981]

No, it wasn't a fifth steppe ancestry; it varied from 4% to 18%. You can't derive a 20% average from that. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but facts are facts.

Nor did the authors venture a conclusion as to whether it arrived directly from the steppe or from Anatolia. They said they needed more data if you'll remember.

I do agree that the farmer hypothesis seems dead in the water. It's too far back in time, for one thing.

Steppe ancestry can't come from Anatolia, at least not originally. I suppose there can be an immediate position, perhaps somewhere in NW Anatolia or Bulgaria, but it's unlikely to be indigenous to that region. There is a EHG component to "Steppe" ancestry, and the earliest farmers from Anatolia are lacking this component, making it difficult to put forward a farming + Anatolian source for the "Steppe" portion of ancestry that suddenly appears in the Mycenaean graves, and is even accentuated in one of them.

 

[Alan]

No, it wasn't a fifth steppe ancestry; it varied from 4% to 18%. You can't derive a 20% average from that. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but facts are facts.

Nor did the authors venture a conclusion as to whether it arrived directly from the steppe or from Anatolia. They said they needed more data if you'll remember.

I do agree that the farmer hypothesis seems dead in the water. It's too far back in time, for one thing.

Correct, especially considering the fact that the Hunters and Gatherers in the Balkans have a genetic profile that looks somewhere inbetween WHG and EHG. So what we see here as "Steppe" ancestry could very well be Balkan H&G ancestry dripping into a Farmer population (Minoans) from the west while at the same time CHG ancestry was arriving in Greece through Anatolia.

Another possibility is that a population very Armenia_BA like (predominantly CHG/Ana_Neo with some EHG admixture) moved into Greece and mixed with the Myceneans in this case the population size of these Indo European arrivals must have been more significant.

And than is the theory that a group directly from Yamnaya moved into Greece and this group must have been only a seventh of the size of the locals. I don't know if it is realistic to believe that a goup of only a seventh the size could have such a impact. Especially considering the fact that back in time the technological advantage in warfare can't have been that huge. The only way this theory could work in my eyes is when the IE didn't arrive in Greece from Yamnaya but a culture nearby in "chinese whisper" fashion. And this culture must have been predominantly Anatolian_Neo themselves.

The second theory has the advantage that it would be much more realistical for people to imagine a large enough group influencing another group to speak their language and adapt some of their culture.

I mean even if you take some of the more prominent cases of Elite dominance in history. The Elite group was at least 1/3 of the size of the locals. See Turks (whom's linguistic ancestors would resemble Qashgai or at least Turkmens) or Iberians in America. The only cases where Elite dominance worked with a much smaller size of people started during and after the Industrialization, when the gap in technology had risen significantly.

And than if there is any case of Elite dominance coming from a Yamnaya type of group. Why would these Elite guys belong to the paternal line of the locals?

 

[Aaron1981]

A lot of people have proposed that, especially with regards to Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic, though as far as I know the latter's latest proposed coalescence time would be pretty much bang on the 12,000 years ago that farming took off in the Near East.

Where would isolates such as Basque, which it is occasionally claimed forms part of a larger language group with the above families, fit in? Are similarities really limited to a few cognates here and there? Was the proto-Afro-Euro-Dravidian tongue spoken in one of the Ice Age refugia in Southern Europe or the Balkans, with some of this group's descendants developing agriculture in Anatolia and the Levant?

Basque and other Iberian languages were probably introduced to Iberia during the Neolithic period and were carried on as a legacy of the maternal continuity of the penninsula. As we saw the neolithic genomes were very Basque like by modern standards and demonstrated that current distribution of the Y chromosome means little. More to come in 2018, let's see.

 

[Aaron1981]

Yamnaya would turn out to be blonde, horse riding nomads. WRONG.

Not trying to be a pain in the ass but I believe one of the R1b-Z2103 and the I2-M223 "Yamnayans" carried copies of the common blonde hair mutation.

 

[Angela]

Not trying to be a pain in the ass but I believe one of the R1b-Z2103 and the I2-M223 "Yamnayans" carried copies of the common blonde hair mutation.

Wow, you could have fooled me.

Why don't you run all their pigmentation snps through the kind of forensic algorithms that are used every day, and see whether one such mutation, combined with their lack of other depigmentation snps, results in a prediction of blonde hair. I'll save you the trouble. It won't. How many times does this have to be explained to you? By all means knock yourself out running the results from every single sample through the algorithm and let me know the percentages for blonde, blue-eyed steppe cowboys.

The Indo-Europeans had at least 40% Caucasus ancestry. and were darker than any modern Europeans. The people living in their yurts or whatever north of them are a different story.

I think it's time to retire the "Indo-Europeans For Dummies" book version of history.

Steppe ancestry can't come from Anatolia, at least not originally. I suppose there can be an immediate position, perhaps somewhere in NW Anatolia or Bulgaria, but it's unlikely to be indigenous to that region. There is a EHG component to "Steppe" ancestry, and the earliest farmers from Anatolia are lacking this component, making it difficult to put forward a farming + Anatolian source for the "Steppe" portion of ancestry that suddenly appears in the Mycenaean graves, and is even accentuated in one of them.

Where, pray tell, did I ever espouse in any way the theory of the Neolithic spread of the Indo-European language into Europe? I'll save you the trouble on that one too. Nowhere. In fact, I specifically said that theory was dead in the water. Must I constantly be wasting time responding to straw man arguments?

 

[IronSide]

Why does it matter if they were blonde or not ?

 

[Angela]

Why does it matter if they were blonde or not ?

Is that a serious question?

It matters a hell of a lot to people like Davidski and this poster and practically everyone on idiotic forums like Stormfront and other racist sites.

How long have you been involved in this hobby, anyway? How could you not know that?

 

[Ygorcs]

Correct, especially considering the fact that the Hunters and Gatherers in the Balkans have a genetic profilewhich shares some with EHG. So what we see here as "Steppe" ancestry could very well be Balkan H&G ancestry dripping into a Farmer population (Minoans) from the west while at the same time CHG ancestry was arriving in Greece through Anatolia.

Another possibility is that a population very Armenia_BA like (predominantly CHG with some EHG admixture) moved into Greece and mixed with the Myceneans in this case the population size of these Indo European arrivals must have been more significant.

And than is the theory that a group directly from Yamnaya moved into Greece and this group must have been only a seventh of the size of the locals. I don't know if it is realistic to believe that a goup of only a seventh the size could have such a impact. Especially considering the fact that back in time the technological advantage in warfare can't have been that huge. The only way this theory could work in my eyes is when the IE didn't arrive in Greece from Yamnaya but a culture nearby in "chinese whisper" fashion. And this culture must have been predominantly Anatolian_Neo themselves.

The second theory has the advantage that it would be much more realistical for people to imagine a large enough group influencing another group to speak their language and adapt some of their culture.

I mean even if you take some of the more prominent cases of Elite dominance in history. The Elite group was at least 1/3 of the size of the locals. See Turks (whom's linguistic ancestors would resemble Qashgai or at least Turkmens) or Iberians in America. The only cases where Elite dominance worked with a much smaller size of people started during and after the Industrialization, when the gap in technology had risen significantly.

And than if there is any case of Elite dominance coming from a Yamnaya type of group. Why would these Elite guys belong to the paternal line of the locals?

Nobody still believes Mycenaeans came directly from Yamna. They are at least one milennium too young for that. What is discussed is where the Yamna-derived (linguistically and at least partly genetically) people lived before they conquered Greece and lent it their language and some of its customs. This expansion was not straight out from the steppe, but more like a gradual dispersal followed by mixing and dilution events, genetic and linguistic substrates, appearance of new cultural and genetic syntheses in new social communities - and only then, from these new societies, other rounds of expansions and dispersals. It was not one common star-shaped event, but an expansion through more than 1,000 years. But still the ultimate source is there at the Yamna horizon. To miss this necessary differentiation would be like claiming that the Americans can't possibly speak a Germanic language because it is so obvious that their ancestors' language and culture did not come mostly from Scandinavia (its ultimate source, urheimat), but from the British Isles, ignoring all the historic processes that happened in between for some 1,100 years before the conquest of the present USA.

 

[davef]

Why does it matter if they were blonde or not ?

Because if it turns out that neither they nor the hunter gatherers brought blondism to Europe then it could only be from one other source.....the farmers from the Middle East!!!

^^^ stormfront's/theapricity's or other skin head site's reaction in a nutshell .

 

[Yetos]

Very nice hypothesis, I find it reasonable. You are right that I (we) should be more prudent dealing with all these reconstructions. However, we need to fine tune the chronology here to see if this scenario is really plausible. If the Italic tribes and the Celtic tribes were still all around Hungary way after the breakup of Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic, and well into the development of such distinct languages as Oscan and Gaulish, that may make sense. Otherwise, I don't think we could explain well why early Italic and early Celtic became "P-shifted" in some places and not in other places, if they were supposedly under the same areal influence or, perhaps, the same elite dominance. Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic do not show any kw > p, so we can't assume this is an old sound change, before the widespread Celtic and Italic migrations to places far away from Hungary or its surroundings - unless, of course, we find evidences for it.

Since Celtiberian and Lusitanian, which are plausibly more conservative, "archaic" remnants of early Proto-Celtic migrations, also lack the kw > p change, I'd speculate that this is a latter change, from the times when Celtic (and possibly also Italic) languages were already dispersed in a very large territory, where the "Hungarian" influence would've been less strongly felt. But, anyway, perhaps just some branches of Celts and Italics, already divided and dispersed, were under this influence that led from *kw to *p.

However, in any case, this must have very little or nothing to do with Greek "íkkos" > "ippos". This change happened nowhere near Hungary, but mostly in Attic Greek, and in an entirely different cultural and social environment. Also, the change was completely different in nature from the Celtic and Italic sound changes, since the channge to "p" only happened in some words under very specific conditions (before [a] and [o]). In other situations, the changes were very different, from *kw to [t] or [k]. It was apparently an independent process.

Attic Greek is at least 5 centuries after the change Q-P
and is a seperate evolution of Ionian Dialect 3 centuries after the change Q-P
the Q-P change is at end of Mycenean era and is in Homeric
as I said the horsermans were called ικκεται at pure Mycenean but at the end we see the word εππεται
compare Latin equites and ικκεται (ικκετες)

as for Greek Ι comes from the letter Djot but always has centum sound and never satem
That is the Fully Yodization of Greek Ιι γιωτα ((wh)-iota, wh as in why or yiota and y as in you) and had an aspiration like h or γ infront
that is why ιατρος evolute to Γιατρος and μυια το μυΓα etc
and that is something that is upsent in N Europe IE
and a dilema cause all accept that IE did not had sound Γ and was G
but Djot had the sound of Γ
so this sound was known to LPIE

 

[Modernancientdna]

Bumpskiiii

 

[davef]

That empire strikes back clip does best at describing how racists react when scientific studies pop their dream bubble!!!

 

[Modernancientdna]

Bumpskiiiii

 

[davef]

Farmers from Middle East blonde?

I was making a point that if neo nazis and klansmen find out that blondism was brought to Europe by the farmers, they would go into freak out mode because anything to do with the Middle East is rotten to them and their bigoted selves.

 

[Yetos]

Blondism is mutation that has to do with humidity
and first appeared around Baltic sea

neither steppe neither Caucasus niether Anatolian neolithic
Blondism is spread from somewhere around Baltic sea or big rivers of eastern Europe
and has to do with humidity
it is impossible to be a steppe mark

and if remember correct, maybe I am wrong to that,
redhair and blue eyes is a remnant/mark of Neanderthal.

 

[Ygorcs]

And than is the theory that a group directly from Yamnaya moved into Greece and this group must have been only a seventh of the size of the locals. I don't know if it is realistic to believe that a goup of only a seventh the size could have such a impact. Especially considering the fact that back in time the technological advantage in warfare can't have been that huge. The only way this theory could work in my eyes is when the IE didn't arrive in Greece from Yamnaya but a culture nearby in "chinese whisper" fashion.

The only thing is: Mycenaeans never came directly from the Yamna. They were not Yamna. Their language is way too diverged from PIE to be even considered as a "late dialect of PIE", and their material culture is decidedly not Yamna, but certainly steppe-influenced and perhaps steppe-derived.

It seems to me that there is a very problematic confusion on the results of steppe ancestry in Mycenaean Greeks. That steppe-ancestry was around 1/7 of the autosomal DNA of Greeks by 1,200 BC does NOT mean that the impact of Proto-Greeks in Greece was just 1/7 (and, yes, peoples have been able to change the language and culture of a conquered and decadent society being only a small, but prestigious and ascending, minority of ~15%, the Turkic peoples almost everywhere from Europe to Asia and many Hispanic mestizo nations being the classic examples).

What those numbers mean is just that the steppe-derived part of the Mycenaean Greeks, after it was diluted with the DNA of the indigenous and possibly populous nativepopulation, became a mere 1/7. But, again, Mycenaeans most probably did not come directly from the steppes, and they certainly and absolutely did not come directly from Yamna. Even the Pontic-Caspian steppe by the Bronze Age was a changing DNA landscape with increasing influences from outside, including more EEF influx.

So, those Proto-Greeks, who were probably living for hundreds of years in other lands mixing with their respective locals (the Balkans? Northwestern Anatolia? We're not sure), had their steppe ancestry already diluted way before they conquered Greece and diluted their steppe ancestry once again. I'd speculate that a steppe ancestry of 1/7 means that the Proto-Greeks from further north or east had a demographic impact 2 or 3 times as big as that, more on the order of 1/3 or 40%, more than enough to trigger language shift.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I agree here and i could add that according to some daughter IE languages they did not distinguished between "horse" and "donkey".
For example Welsh march, Breton marc’h, and Old English mearh Old Saxon merge, meriha (“mare”), Dutch merrie (“mare”), Old High German marah (“horse”).

Compare
Albanian magar("donkey"),Romanian măgar("donkey") borrowing in South Slavic magare,magarac("donkey") id. Alternatively from *margar, from *margë

Another example
Latin equus, PIE *h₁éḱwos (“horse”). Cognates include Ancient Greek (híppos), Sanskrit (áśva) compare Old Armenian էշ (ēš, “donkey”) from same root.

Now the word "cavalry" riding of horses

Latin Caballus Welsh ceffyl, Manx cabbyl,Scottish Gaelic and Irish capall.Also compared is Ancient Greek καβάλλης (kabállēs, “nag”), in turn possibly a borrowing from a Balkan, Anatolian, or northeast European language. Compare Turkish kaval, adjunct of at (“horse”),Slavic *kobýla.


What kind of horses did "Indo Europeans" ride then?

For the oxen i do think that was most important animal of IE people but that is another topic,since much more relevance is given to horse,chariot or wheel.

Concerning the last, I think it is possible but linguistic data can't prove it. If the reconstructed meaning of '*gʷṓws' is correct, we can use the argument that the word survives in many branches and that might point to its importance (though concerning Latin for example they say it might be a loan from Sabellic because the expected Latin word would have been different).

Concerning horses, I agree and I had thought to mention that. (By the way some have considered the word to be loan from North Caucasian or inherited from 'Nostratic' etc. I chose not to mention those things too. Also, there isn't agreement on what the reconstruction should be. More important was to show how they reach to conclusions based on nothing and attribute their conclusions to linguistic data when no such data exist or can exist.)

 

[Ygorcs]

Attic Greek is at least 5 centuries after the change Q-P
and is a seperate evolution of Ionian Dialect 3 centuries after the change Q-P
the Q-P change is at end of Mycenean era and is in Homeric

Then why didn't this change affect ALL *kw as it did in those few Celtic and Italic languages? The answer is that, regardless of when and where this change occurred in Greek dialects, it was a different, more restrictive sound change, and one possibly triggered by different phonological phenomena. After all, it occurred only before [a] and [o]. This is not the "fashion" of P-Celtic nor P-Italic languages, but a different process leading to similar results only in some words, but not in others (see "tis", "lukos" >>>> not, "pis", "lupus"). I'm not saying this change did not happen, and I'm glad you informed us when it happened, before Attic Greek (here I was just repeating what Papadimitriou had taught us some messages back in this same topic) and in fact still in late Homeric periods. But, still, I repeat: it's not the same change that happened in Celtic and Italic languages only much later (during the early Iron Age they were still Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic, all of them with *kw), and all these changes are at least 1,500 years too late to have anything to do with Yamna, even in its latest stages.

 

[Modernancientdna]

Blondism is mutation that has to do with humidity
and first appeared around Baltic sea

neither steppe neither Caucasus niether Anatolian neolithic
Blondism is spread from somewhere around Baltic sea or big rivers of eastern Europe
and has to do with humidity
it is impossible to be a steppe mark

and if remember correct, maybe I am wrong to that,
redhair and blue eyes is a remnant/mark of Neanderthal.

Bumpskiiiii

 

[Ygorcs]

That is the Fully Yodization of Greek Ιι γιωτα ((wh)-iota, wh as in why or yiota and y as in you) and had an aspiration like h or γ infront
that is why ιατρος evolute to Γιατρος and μυια το μυΓα etc
and that is something that is upsent in N Europe IE
and a dilema cause all accept that IE did not had sound Γ and was G
but Djot had the sound of Γ
so this sound was known to LPIE

Why? Can you explain this more extensively? You are talking about phonetic changes within Greek, perhaps even with previous sources even in Proto-Greek, and suddenly from that you make a conclusion about what sounds PIE had in its late stage. How come? What are the evidences that this djot (by the way, I had read that the letter gamma was a simple [g], not a velar fricative in Ancient Greek) existed way back to before Greek, Proto-Greek reaching LPIE? Also, didn't this change from i >>> ghi (Γι) happen very late, even during the transitions from Ancient Greek to more modern forms?