Central and South Asian DNA Paper

I2514

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2, T1a3b1, T1a3b2a1) (xT1a derived=ancestral)

Most probably T2, orT1b and less probably T1a3.

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I2512

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2b)

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I1781

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2a1, T1a3b2a1)

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These T seems to be unrelated to those found in ancient Europe, just like the previously found among the PPNB samples.


Tepe Hissar





I2335




Not clear to be H3. He still could be anything.




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I2927




Confirmed J*




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I2337




Confirmed J*, probably J2a and J2a1h2




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I2923




Confirmed L2




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BMAC Gonur




I1792




Probably J*




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I1789




Could be P or everything else.




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I2128




Seems to be J*




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I1784




Confirmed J^*, perhaps J1.




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I2087




Confirmed CT, probably P* and R*.




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I7173




0 derived SNPs found yet. Due to low coverage.




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I7101




Probably BT, only 1 derived SNP found due to low coverage.




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I7170




Confirmed CT. Low coverage.




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I6118




0 derived SNPs found yet. Due to low coverage.




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I6122




0 derived SNPs found yet. Due to low coverage




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I6310




0 derived SNPs found yet. Due to low coverage




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I6318




0 derived SNPs found yet. Due to low coverage




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I6120




Confirmed BT. Low coverage.




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I6312




Confirmed CT (xDE, G). low coverage.




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I6127




Confirmed BT. Perhaps J* but low coverage.




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I6117




0 derived SNPs found yet. Due to low coverage




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I6119




Confirmed CT (x DE, C, G, J, L, T1a1, R). low coverage.




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I2085




Confirmed E1b1b1
 
Aram points out--



Aram said...@All

I had a close look to other Y dna assignments. Not only adna but also modern.
Many of them completly wrong.
Numerous E1a in modern India.
M269 in Iron Gates, Kura Araxes and Mal'ta boy.
I2a2a in BA Turkmenistan
Kotias is J2a1h.. Plain wrong
Deep subclade of E1b1a (Niger Congo) in Iran

Etc etc

The software is wrong doing and it is possible that some of this E1a-s are real R1a.
April 3, 2018 at 1:43 AM

blank.gif
Aram said...Alberto

I am not ruling out the possibility that L1a and EHG came to Areni from Turan. But then again why they are ANF shifted and no trace of that WSiberia Hg. Also notice that y dna L1b is purely West Asian y dna. So hard to say.

Anthro

I think L23 level formed in Steppe. But it is possible that M269 split into L23 and Pf7562 occured in West Asia. This is a possibility that we can't rule out.
Pf7562 moved into C/BA Anatolia creating Hittites and others. While L23 expanded from Steppe.

M269 ultimately came to West Asia from EHG side. Either directly either via Central Asia.
 
Anthro

I think L23 level formed in Steppe. But it is possible that M269 split into L23 and Pf7562 occured in West Asia. This is a possibility that we can't rule out.
Pf7562 moved into C/BA Anatolia creating Hittites and others. While L23 expanded from Steppe.

M269 ultimately came to West Asia from EHG side. Either directly either via Central Asia.

Aram is still hell bound on making it "come from the steple".
Anyways it looks like is a matter of time before we find M269 near the western/southwestern vicinity of Black sea (romania, Bulgaria....)
But L23 or Pf7562? --- south caucasus.
 
See below quotes of some sources about the archaeology and anthropology of the Tepe Hissar culture. Could it be that the Ubaid, Uruk, Leyla-Tepe, Maykop, Early-Kura-Araxes(like Areni-1) and Sumerians will have a similar Y-haplogroup structure as seen within the Tepe Hissar results? Could it be that the carriers of the first "Metallurgy"(Varna, Uruk, Leyla-Tepe, Maykop, Early-Kura-Araxes and Sumerians) were the same people and originated within an area between Mesopotamia, Eastern Anatolia and South-Caucasus?

1.
The Chronology of the Third Cultural Period at Tepe Hissar:


There is yet another weapon typical of Hissar III ? and C, the adze-axe, This type of axe probably evolved, as Prof. Gordon Childe has always maintained, from the amalgamation of the Sumerian type tubular shafthole adze and axe, but the region where this took place would appear to have been that of Maikop where all three types are found, and from this centre it spread.

2.
Ancient Metallurgy in the USSR: The Early Metal Age:


Metal ornaments occur mainly in burials at Kuro-Araks cemeteries in Elar, Urbnisi, Khizanaant-gora, and others. Long pins with flat, broad, double-spiralled heads are found in the later levels of Kuro-araks settlements. They mark the beginning of a major series of similar ornaments which occur throughout the caucasian cultures of the MBA and LBA. They are also known from Iran, from the Tepe Hissar II period, and in eastern Anatolia, from the so-called Late Chalcolithic levels of the Tepecik settlement which must date to the second half of the fourth millenium BC.

The latest levels of Namazga III may be compared, in terms of their ceramic and terracotta assemblages, via Tepe Hissar IB and IC(in Iran), with Tepe Sialk III/5-7, and via these with Uruk XV-IV.

Only the knives from Kyul-tepe I and Tekhut provide an indication that these forms were later to occupy one of the central places in the production of Transcaucasian metallurgical centres, already linked with the Kuro-Araks culture. Relatively similar forms of tanged knives occur at sites of the Sialk II-III and Hissar I types.

3.
A COMPREHENSIVE STUDY OF ANTHROPOLOGICAL MATERIALS OF THE LATE ENEOLITHIC FROM THE ARENI 1 CAVE:


Results of the intergroup statistical analysis identified close morphological affinities between the Eneolithic skulls from Areni 1 with groups from Tepe Hissar II, Ginchi, Catal Huyuk, Alishar Huyuk and the bearers of the Kuro-Araxes from the Southern Caucasus. As for race and genetics, the Late Eneolithic inhabitants from Areni 1 cave, more probably, originate from the territory of the Middle East.

4.
The Indo-Europeans: Archeological Problems:


The royal tombs at Maikop and Tsarskaja in Kuban, with burials in house graves built of timber or of stone slabs equipped with a fantastic amount of gold, silver, copper, pottery and stone vases, gold figurines of bulls and lions sewn on garments, gold and silver bull figurines adorning canopies, gold beads and rings, gold, silver, turquoise and carnelian beads, as well as copper axes, daggers and spearheads show close relations with northern Iran (Tepe Hissar III) and with the royal tombs of Alaca Huyuk and Horoztepe in northern central Anatolia (Lloyd 1961).

5.
THE CHRONOLOGY OF THE CAUCASUS DURING THE EARLYMETAL AGE:


While the pottery found in the first group of kurgans is close to the Kura-Araxesculture, the pottery in the second, and later, group is characterized by the so-called ‘pearl-like’ ornaments. This decoration is typical of the Novosvobodnaya(Tsarskaya) stage of the north Caucasian Maikop culture and Early Bronze Age north-east Iranian sites (Tureng Tepe III C, Shah Tepe III, Tepe Hissar II B, Yarim Tepe);two such sherds were found in the ‘Late Chalcolithic’ levels of Alishar(central Anatolia)

6.
The New Chronology of the Bronze Age Settlement of Tepe Hissar, Iran:


We could not disregard the striking resemblances between ... Early Dynastic Sumer and Hissar IIIC.

7.
Studies in ancient technology. 5:


Hancar considers the Copper Age of Kuban, Egypt and Mesopotamia individual growths on a common base, but connects Kuban with Tureng Tepe and more closely with Tepe Hissar III.

8.
The Southern Caucasus in Prehistory:


Skulls from the time of formation of the Kura-Araxes culture are representative of the Mediterranean type of the Europoid race. In a number of traits they are close to the series of skulls from such sites as Tepe Hissar II-III, Ubaid, and Kish.
 
Extremely unlikely scenarions from the point of view of linguistics. I think you're overestimating the possible survival time of a Common PIE without any significant divergence. If the Bell Beaker-derived languages (I presume Celtic, Lusitanian and Italic, at least, ultimately descend from one of those) hadn't even crossed to Transcaucasia by 5,500 BC, it would certainly have diverged into an extremely divergent language in relation the "steppe-derived" branches like Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic (probably derived from a Yamna language more than 2,500 years later), and instead what we clearly see is that they all, without exception, look like closely related from a common source not many thousands of years prior to their first attestations, especially because they share a whole lot of innovations that for example Anatolian IE lacks.

They could have developed or mutually exchanged 1 or 2 of those features, but it's extremely improbable that they would somehow converge to the same point in several different features ranging from phonetics to morphology and syntax.

That's especially true of Mycenaean Greek compared to Indo-Iranian (which most clearly expanded together with Eastern European/North Asian steppe ancestry), since these two branches share so many commonalities that some linguists even proposed that they should be grouped together as an intermediary Graeco-Indo-Iranian language between Late PIE and themselves. Greek has clearly split from Indo-Iranian quite late in historic terms, not as early as before 5,000 BC, and take into consideration that it's most certain that the PIE speakers in the steppe mixed extensively with entirely different peoples and languages, so their language must've evolved significantly in such a scenario of intense migration, cultural shifts and displacement (like medieval English, for example).

The Shulaveri-Shomu that lived in the Balkans most certainly did not speak PIE at all, but an ancestor language of the PIE that eventually developed as one homogeneous and expansive language in the South Caucasus. If Bell Beakers and Mycenaeans came from a branch of Shulaveri-Shomu that had simply stayed in the Balkans while another offshoot came to West Asia, spent centuries there, migrated to the North Caucasus and from there expanded to the open steppes, well, I'm pretty sure that we'd have in fact 2 starkly different but related language families in Europe (e.g. Semitic vs. Berber), and not one common and still reconstructible Proto-Indo-European language. The divergence would've been much more significant, and the typological similarities between these "southern" branches and the "northern" (steppe) branches would be much fewer.

Languages inevitably change, it seems to me quite misleading to talk uniformly of a "PIE" from Shulaveri-Shomu still in the Balkans in e.g. 5,700 BC until the final divergence of PIE after 3,000 BC. No language survives more than 2,500 years without severe divergence (look at Romance languages, they ceased to be just variants of Latin for a mere 1,300-1,400 years).

I don't think (quite the contrary) it's unlikely that Para-Indo-European languages existed elsewhere in Asia and Europe, but THE Proto-Indo-European that really survived into many daughter languages was not much older than the Late Neolithic/Copper Age, so it corresponds much more plausibly with the period when the migration from Transcaucasia to the Steppes happened, not before that. The others, sister languages of PIE, simply died out.

so, in your opinion, Mycenian Greek is also MLBA steppe in origin, and not Anatolian
the same for Armenian?
 
Trojet posted this in another forum:

I looked at the two J2b's from Hajji Firuz (ca. 6000-5700 calBCE). From the reported SNPs, one of them is J2b-M12(L283-) and the other is J2b-M12(M241- M205-)

that would mean they were a dead end as far as their Y-DNA is concerned?
 
It's not impossible, but it requires some maneuvering. Maneuvering that also happens to require a lack of evidence for this maneuvering aside from what is at this time one Z2103 male. Steppe culture was remarkably continuous from Samara all the way to Srubna, who we know spoke Iranian. So we'd be talking about a small group of males, lacking any characteristics that would identify them with known Indoeuropeans nor leaving any trace of evidence to the question, moving through the Caucuses and quite literally infiltrating a steppe culture, while being absorbed by them, while changing their language to IE, from Uralic as Goga would say? And of course they would have completely decamped from the near east because they were replaced by Caucasian and Hurrian by the earliest records of the regions in question.

Hajji Firuz : 6000 - 5700 BC, from there straight into the steppe, some way north, with a culture core in...
Samara : 5500 - 4800, then...
Khvalynsk : 5000 - 4500,
(Sredny Stog, as a hybrid between steppe and Trypolie : 4500 - 3500)
Yamna : 3600 - 2300

Could work. Does anyone know how much CHG, if any, was found in Samara and subsequent cultures?
 
I actually think proto Semitic speakers lived in Iran and Caucasus, while also holding that Levant Neolithic is the ancestral Afro-Asiatic component, some reasons for this:

-haplogroup J1 doesn't appear until the Bronze Age, accompanying the Iran/Caucasus admixture, J1-P58 has a clear association to Semitic speakers.

-a linguistic argument in favor of this is: Proto Semitic; dating and locating it

-if Semitic speakers originated in the East, is that the origin of Afro-Asiatic ? no, Levant Neolithic ancestry did migrate to Iran and Caucasus, merging with them to become like the Iran Chalcolithic population, I'm not claiming all Iran Chal groups spoke Semitic but certainly a subset of them did, this hypothetical group then back-migrated to the Levant bringing with it CHG ancestry and haplogroup J1.

Semitic is derived from Afroasiatic which was spoken in the Levant, but it didn't exist before the arrival of the bronze age J tribes coming from the Zagros area, it is a case were the conquerors adopted the langauge of the subjected
 
I think that most of the A, BT, CT, A0-T, DE data are incorrect and should belong to other haplogroups, i hope they can fix this too. And what do you guys think about the prediction of Leyla-Tepe, Maikop and Early Kura-Araxes(before 3500 BCE) cultures? Could they have the same kind of haplogroups(J, J2a1h2, L2, T, T1a, H3) like in the "Tepe Hissar" which is also the basis of the Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerians? All these cultures are archaeologically and anthropologically proven to be close. Maybe the results will indeed show a migration of Mesopotamia into the South-North Caucasus + Eastern Anatolia?
 
Would people just stop with this "all the y designations are wrong" in an attempt to invalidate the Z2103 sample finding or find some R1a?

The listed information isn't "wrong". They can't get usable dna at all from some samples. In some cases it's fragmentary. The program spits out what mutations show up. You're supposed to use some judgment about how to interpret it. Now, should they have given some guidance? Maybe, but most of these are obvious once you look at the calls.

As for the lack of R1a in Swat, I'm tired of the goalpost constantly getting moved. Last I heard, the predictions were that the samples would be 75-80% steppe, but now everyone knew this was the wrong place to find it. Please.

Also, anyone who thought that the steppe percentages might be confounded by "pseudo steppe" created by a reservoir of ANE plus Iran Neo and some ANF was a kook worthy of name calling.

Honestly, some of you guys are unbelievable. Just try to be honest with yourselves and other people, and try to be objective.

As to the language issue I'm still not sure, but if it turns out there isn't a problem with the dating of the Z2103 in Iran, and we, for example, find more on the route into the steppe, then I think it is good evidence that the earliest form of the language as well as much of the culture did indeed come from the south Caucasus. I mean, is it likely that male Z2103 carriers would drop their language in favor of the language of whatever women they married on the steppe?
 
Here are the two Y-DNA haplogroups found in Hajji Firuz:
j5JCJ1I.jpg

Notice anything?
 
I looked at the two J2b's from Hajji Firuz (ca. 6000-5700 calBCE). From the reported SNPs, one of them is J2b-M12(L283-) and the other is J2b-M12(M241- M205-)
that would mean they were a dead end as far as their Y-DNA is concerned?

They could still be J2b-M12>Z1825: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/
We'll see when they publish the raw data (BAM files).

There was a dead end J2b-M12* found not far from the area, ca. 8000 BC: https://j2-m172.info/2016/07/ancient-zagros-j2b-iran-abdul-hosein-early-neolithic-broushaki-et-al/

Anyways, this is another evidence that the origin of J2b and also J2b2-M241 most probably lies roughly in the same region. J2b2-M241 initially likely expanded as Iran Neolithic marker, with J-M241>Z2432 mostly into South Asia, and J-M241>L283 perhaps to Caucuses > Southern Steppe > Balkans/Europe during the Bronze Age.
 
I think that most of the A, BT, CT, A0-T, DE data are incorrect and should belong to other haplogroups, i hope they can fix this too. And what do you guys think about the prediction of Leyla-Tepe, Maikop and Early Kura-Araxes(before 3500 BCE) cultures? Could they have the same kind of haplogroups(J, J2a1h2, L2, T, T1a, H3) like in the "Tepe Hissar" which is also the basis of the Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerians? All these cultures are archaeologically and anthropologically proven to be close. Maybe the results will indeed show a migration of Mesopotamia into the South-North Caucasus + Eastern Anatolia?

Forgot H3. One unique derived call in a low coverage sample is not a confirmation of being H3.

Also Forgot T1a. The sample is plain T confirmed but not T1a with 2 dervided calls and 1 ancestral call.
 
Would people just stop with this "all the y designations are wrong" in an attempt to invalidate the Z2103 sample finding or find some R1a?

The listed information isn't "wrong". They can't get usable dna at all from some samples. In some cases it's fragmentary. The program spits out what mutations show up. You're supposed to use some judgment about how to interpret it. Now, should they have given some guidance? Maybe, but most of these are obvious once you look at the calls.

As for the lack of R1a in Swat, I'm tired of the goalpost constantly getting moved. Last I heard, the predictions were that the samples would be 75-80% steppe, but now everyone knew this was the wrong place to find it. Please.

Also, anyone who thought that the steppe percentages might be confounded by "pseudo steppe" created by a reservoir of ANE plus Iran Neo and some ANF was a kook worthy of name calling.

Honestly, some of you guys are unbelievable. Just try to be honest with yourselves and other people, and try to be objective.

As to the language issue I'm still not sure, but if it turns out there isn't a problem with the dating of the Z2103 in Iran, and we, for example, find more on the route into the steppe, then I think it is good evidence that the earliest form of the language as well as much of the culture did indeed come from the south Caucasus. I mean, is it likely that male Z2103 carriers would drop their language in favor of the language of whatever women they married on the steppe?

isn't Swat 'Indus periphery' ?

and indeed we have to find a route from Hajji Firuz either to the steppe or to the Anatolian branch before we can take firm conclusions
it is an interesting development though
 
Is anyone else considering the possibility the Anatolian farmer ancestry is actually Levant Neolithic or Natufian related? Especially given some of the paternal haplogroups appear to be related to PPNB, but none to EEF?
 
isn't Swat 'Indus periphery' ?

and indeed we have to find a route from Hajji Firuz either to the steppe or to the Anatolian branch before we can take firm conclusions
it is an interesting development though

They seem to have made up that term, from what I can tell. :)

This particular branch of Indo-European studies never particularly interested me, so I guess I took it for granted that when various people were blogging or posting about how this was going to be "steppe central" they were going not only with good statistical analysis but a good understanding of the archaeology and culture of the area.

Big mistake! Huge! (Sorry, another movie reference-Pretty Woman!) :)

Anyway, I now have done some digging of my own, and it doesn't look very "Indo-European" at all in the early periods. However, as someone has opined somewhere, it would be very weird if it stayed that way for very long.

Then there's the question of where the route does lie. The "steppe" or "steppe related" people didn't get airlifted to the Punjab. There should be some record of their passing.

For now, I'm keeping an open mind, but perhaps leaning a bit to a later entry with a good chunk of it coming from Scythians with less East Asian.

@Trojet,
" J2b2-M241 initially likely expanded as Iran Neolithic marker, with J-M241>Z2432 mostly into South Asia, and J-M241>L283 perhaps to Caucuses > Southern Steppe > Balkans/Europe during the Bronze Age."

Or maybe across Anatolia in the Bronze Age and from there into Southeastern Europe?

@Saetrus
"Notice anything"?

Yes, I notice that both J2 and the upstream clades of R1b moved from east to west. That's the easy part. The question is with whom did various subclades move? Which ones spoke "IE" languages and which didn't?

@Promenade,
"Is anyone else considering the possibility the Anatolian farmer ancestry is actually Levant Neolithic or Natufian related? Especially given some of the paternal haplogroups appear to be related to PPNB, but none to EEF?
"

I'd have to go back and check, but to the best of my recollection they mention "ANF" ancestry, but, of course, ANF included Levant Neolithic, as Levant Neolithic included ANF.

A lot of that ancestry entered the area from the west, i.e. Iran.
 
Is anyone else considering the possibility the Anatolian farmer ancestry is actually Levant Neolithic or Natufian related? Especially given some of the paternal haplogroups appear to be related to PPNB, but none to EEF?

Excluding E1b natufians, all the other PPNB haplogroups are carring Aegean-Anatolian Neolithic Ancestry.
 

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