The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

[CrazyDonkey]

you seem to forget that until "recent", the british isle were "3 herder and 10 goats"! - so whats up with the Britain fixation?

a. check any youtube video of European population overtime and and you will notice how scarce were population in northern, and northeastern not say eastern itself, part of europe up until the beginning of the middle ages. Those things were wastlands up until "recently".

b. the upsurge of R1a/b started at the onset of climate change events (from the 5.9 kiloyear to 4.2 kiloyear) that had dramatic impacts on agriculture in europe and could very well have overall decreased local population to very low levels.

You're mistaking the Highland Clearances for 2,000 BCE. Neolithic populations had been there, for how long? Stonehenge and the Megalithic Culture was in full swing then.

 

[Ernekar]

all recent papers concentrate on autosomal DNA, which is fine,
but they are getting sloppy about Y-DNA, which IMO still provides interesting additional info

I also think its great that they concentrate on autosomal DNA.
Although they have always been pretty sloppy Y-DNA-wise, especially in pre-prints.

But as long as they publish the bam files, it should not be a problem, because then we can just look at the Y-DNA ourselves.

 

[berun]

Z2013 was found in Hajji Firuz dating to 5000 BC or so... it's not de Caucasus, it's Iranian Azerbadjan I think, that counts for one; also it's possible to count a R1b1a1 in Armenia dated to XXV BC in a Kura-Araxes medium. The case to don't see R1b in the North Caucasus piedmont could be attached that the big majority of inhabitants there were farmers, only in regions with herding as the main subsistence economy R1b could pop up more easily.

 

[epoch]

Z2013 was found in Hajji Firuz dating to 5000 BC or so... it's not de Caucasus, it's Iranian Azerbadjan I think, that counts for one; also it's possible to count a R1b1a1 in Armenia dated to XXV BC in a Kura-Araxes medium. The case to don't see R1b in the North Caucasus piedmont could be attached that the big majority of inhabitants there were farmers, only in regions with herding as the main subsistence economy R1b could pop up more easily.

D(Mbuti, EHG; Hajji_Firuz_ChL_R1b_outlier, Hajji_Firuz_ChL) = -0.0151 -3.737 460845

 

[berun]

√12.33~0.14∆ maybe

 

[—BoNe—]

Ethnogenesis of the Main European Y Genotype

1- Ca. 5000–4500 BCE
A single Caucasian clan (L23) migrates north due to the overflow of the Black Sea (possible Black Sea deluge event, still debated). This group comes into contact with Pontic steppe populations and mixes with them.


2 - Ca. 4500–4000 BCE
From this admixture emerges a Proto-Yamnaya clan (L51), approximately 50% Caucasian and 50% Steppe. This group is not yet purely “Yamnaya” in the classical sense, but rather a cultural and genetic prototype.

3 - Ca. 4000–3500 BCE
This Proto-Yamnaya clan moves into Eastern and Western Europe (P310), beginning a process of admixture with European hunter-gatherers (WHG) and local Neolithic populations.
25% Caucasian – 25% Steppe – 25% WHG – 25% Anatolian

4 - Ca. 3200–3000 BCE
From this fusion, R1b-L151 arises, possibly in the Mediterranean region of Europe (Aegean, Italy, Iberia, France). This is a lineage that postdates the classical Yamnaya core, already showing strong WHG and/or Anatolian presence.

With L151 begins the bottleneck in which its descendants will have, on average, 25% recessive L151 endogamy and 75% a mix of H1, H3, H5, K, U, J, T.

5- Ca. 3000–2000 BCE
Over the next 1000 years, L151 and its subclades (such as U106, P312, L21, DF27, U152) expand widely across Europe through internal Bell Beaker processes: conquest, social integration, and differential reproduction. There is no evidence of a massive external invasion, but rather a progressive replacement.

6 - Ca. 2500 BCE
This is the point at which traditional archaeogeneticists place the arrival of the “Yamnaya” in Europe, but this is an error, as L151 was already established in Europe at least 500 years earlier, evidenced by the branching of P312 around this time. There is no evidence of these same lineages in the steppes.

7 - Ca. 2500–2000 BCE
Some subgroups of L151, such as U106 and P312, mix with the Corded Ware Culture (CWC), increasing their steppe ancestry to 40–50%. This creates a false appearance of a “new migration” for those who rely on genome-wide averages rather than refined Y-chromosome lineages.

⸻

From point 1 to point 4, there is only one clan; from point 4 onward, there are at least four surviving lines, each following its own path, simultaneously present in the Aegean, Italy, Iberia, and France, moving toward northern Europe.

Everything truly important happened between 3200–2800 BCE; by 2500 BCE, it was already done.

 

[MOESAN]

Ethnogenesis of the Main European Y Genotype

1- Ca. 5000–4500 BCE
A single Caucasian clan (L23) migrates north due to the overflow of the Black Sea (possible Black Sea deluge event, still debated). This group comes into contact with Pontic steppe populations and mixes with them.


2 - Ca. 4500–4000 BCE
From this admixture emerges a Proto-Yamnaya clan (L51), approximately 50% Caucasian and 50% Steppe. This group is not yet purely “Yamnaya” in the classical sense, but rather a cultural and genetic prototype.

3 - Ca. 4000–3500 BCE
This Proto-Yamnaya clan moves into Eastern and Western Europe (P310), beginning a process of admixture with European hunter-gatherers (WHG) and local Neolithic populations.
25% Caucasian – 25% Steppe – 25% WHG – 25% Anatolian

4 - Ca. 3200–3000 BCE
From this fusion, R1b-L151 arises, possibly in the Mediterranean region of Europe (Aegean, Italy, Iberia, France). This is a lineage that postdates the classical Yamnaya core, already showing strong WHG and/or Anatolian presence.

With L151 begins the bottleneck in which its descendants will have, on average, 25% recessive L151 endogamy and 75% a mix of H1, H3, H5, K, U, J, T.

5- Ca. 3000–2000 BCE
Over the next 1000 years, L151 and its subclades (such as U106, P312, L21, DF27, U152) expand widely across Europe through internal Bell Beaker processes: conquest, social integration, and differential reproduction. There is no evidence of a massive external invasion, but rather a progressive replacement.

6 - Ca. 2500 BCE
This is the point at which traditional archaeogeneticists place the arrival of the “Yamnaya” in Europe, but this is an error, as L151 was already established in Europe at least 500 years earlier, evidenced by the branching of P312 around this time. There is no evidence of these same lineages in the steppes.

7 - Ca. 2500–2000 BCE
Some subgroups of L151, such as U106 and P312, mix with the Corded Ware Culture (CWC), increasing their steppe ancestry to 40–50%. This creates a false appearance of a “new migration” for those who rely on genome-wide averages rather than refined Y-chromosome lineages.

⸻

From point 1 to point 4, there is only one clan; from point 4 onward, there are at least four surviving lines, each following its own path, simultaneously present in the Aegean, Italy, Iberia, and France, moving toward northern Europe.

Everything truly important happened between 3200–2800 BCE; by 2500 BCE, it was already done.

You go straight away. I 'm sure of nothing but I don't subscribe to your interpretation concernig L151 (yet, L23 south the Caucasus is debatable) -ave you any sign of L51 presence in ancient south Balkans or Mediterranea? I don't see in Olalde this (your) clear succession of subclades from SW to NW and NN, NE Europe during BB. R1B seems always come from North or East in Iberia, not the way around. If you have new data I lack on the Y-R1b haplo's in South since the 3000/2600 BC could you send them to me please?
&: what do you mean by: "recessive L151"? an Y-haplo cannot be recessive in the common meaning of the word 'recessive' . Or I miss something.

 

[—BoNe—]

You go straight away. I 'm sure of nothing but I don't subscribe to your interpretation concernig L151 (yet, L23 south the Caucasus is debatable) -ave you any sign of L51 presence in ancient south Balkans or Mediterranea? I don't see in Olalde this (your) clear succession of subclades from SW to NW and NN, NE Europe during BB. R1B seems always come from North or East in Iberia, not the way around. If you have new data I lack on the Y-R1b haplo's in South since the 3000/2600 BC could you send them to me please?
&: what do you mean by: "recessive L151"? an Y-haplo cannot be recessive in the common meaning of the word 'recessive' . Or I miss something.

M269 has three main branches: L23 has a well-established epicenter around the Black Sea, PF7562 in the Balkans, and L51 appears in Samara but at very late dates to be direct ancestors of P310 and L151.

And the L151 and P310 individuals we know from northern Europe date from between 3000–2500 BC, which is also too late to be ancestral. Therefore, they would be extinct or basal versions today, and would not fall under L151>.

The only possibility I can think of is that they moved through the Mediterranean, from the Aegean to the West. In PCAs, with the bias of K47, many of the P312 samples from between 2600–2000 BC show an average of 10% paleo-Balkan ancestry.

I also open the possibility that in the Aegean, L151 diversified in two different directions: those who migrated northward via the Danube became U106, and those who migrated westward through the Mediterranean became P312.

At that time, P312 and U106 groups would have spoken some type of Proto-Indo-European language, mutually intelligible to some extent, and part of them would merge later in the Unetice culture.

Between 1500–700 BC, the Tartessians, Iberians, and Etruscans would have adopted other local languages, deformed by the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet, while the cultures closest to the Atlantic spoke different types of Celtic, and the Lusitanians spoke a type of Indo-European that predates Celtic.

For me, what matters is that by 2500 BC, the following groups were already well established:

• Hispanics: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• Gauls: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• British Isles: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, DF13*
• Italics: L151, P312, U152*, L2*
• Germans: L151, U106, R1a-Z283

It’s not that they arrived in 2500 BC, but that by then they were already established.

So everything important must have happened between 3000–2500 BC, and there were no Yamnaya-type invasion waves.

When I refer to recessive endogamy of L151, I mean that if between 3000–1500 BC there was only one type of male (over 80%), over generations the “steppe” admixture (which is actually all that is recessive in M343>L151) stabilized at around 15–30%, with the rest being Anatolian Neolithic and hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is why the steppe component persisted—it was not due to constant influx from the steppe.

Practicing 12.5% endogamy is a method still used by castes in certain religions. It’s a long-term strategy to consolidate a lineage and displace others—basically eugenic racism.

If you introduce a single person with 100% “steppe” ancestry into a culture with 100% Anatolian ancestry, normally after 4 generations that component would drop to 12.5%, and after 6 generations it would be nearly 0%.

In P312 groups, it persisted due to the kind of endogamy they practiced, especially between 2500–1000 BC.

Having over 50% of a single haplogroup across such a large population is not normal; it doesn’t happen randomly. It requires at least 1500 years of a functioning cult.

Since we don’t have much more archaeogenetic data—and getting it is extremely hard—we are starting to look for very rare individuals among L51>L151. We can only gather more information through current populations and by identifying where the most basal L151 and P312 lines are found, which would require fairly massive surveys.

The biggest problem might be that the regions where the most basal versions settled from 3000 BC onward are now under modern cities that have been continuously occupied since then. So to find them, we would have to dig under those cities—which makes it very unlikely we’ll recover those missing links.

 

[MOESAN]

M269 has three main branches: L23 has a well-established epicenter around the Black Sea, PF7562 in the Balkans, and L51 appears in Samara but at very late dates to be direct ancestors of P310 and L151.

And the L151 and P310 individuals we know from northern Europe date from between 3000–2500 BC, which is also too late to be ancestral. Therefore, they would be extinct or basal versions today, and would not fall under L151>.

The only possibility I can think of is that they moved through the Mediterranean, from the Aegean to the West. In PCAs, with the bias of K47, many of the P312 samples from between 2600–2000 BC show an average of 10% paleo-Balkan ancestry.

I also open the possibility that in the Aegean, L151 diversified in two different directions: those who migrated northward via the Danube became U106, and those who migrated westward through the Mediterranean became P312.

At that time, P312 and U106 groups would have spoken some type of Proto-Indo-European language, mutually intelligible to some extent, and part of them would merge later in the Unetice culture.

Between 1500–700 BC, the Tartessians, Iberians, and Etruscans would have adopted other local languages, deformed by the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet, while the cultures closest to the Atlantic spoke different types of Celtic, and the Lusitanians spoke a type of Indo-European that predates Celtic.

For me, what matters is that by 2500 BC, the following groups were already well established:

• Hispanics: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• Gauls: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• British Isles: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, DF13*
• Italics: L151, P312, U152*, L2*
• Germans: L151, U106, R1a-Z283

It’s not that they arrived in 2500 BC, but that by then they were already established.

So everything important must have happened between 3000–2500 BC, and there were no Yamnaya-type invasion waves.

When I refer to recessive endogamy of L151, I mean that if between 3000–1500 BC there was only one type of male (over 80%), over generations the “steppe” admixture (which is actually all that is recessive in M343>L151) stabilized at around 15–30%, with the rest being Anatolian Neolithic and hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is why the steppe component persisted—it was not due to constant influx from the steppe.

Practicing 12.5% endogamy is a method still used by castes in certain religions. It’s a long-term strategy to consolidate a lineage and displace others—basically eugenic racism.

If you introduce a single person with 100% “steppe” ancestry into a culture with 100% Anatolian ancestry, normally after 4 generations that component would drop to 12.5%, and after 6 generations it would be nearly 0%.

In P312 groups, it persisted due to the kind of endogamy they practiced, especially between 2500–1000 BC.

Having over 50% of a single haplogroup across such a large population is not normal; it doesn’t happen randomly. It requires at least 1500 years of a functioning cult.

Since we don’t have much more archaeogenetic data—and getting it is extremely hard—we are starting to look for very rare individuals among L51>L151. We can only gather more information through current populations and by identifying where the most basal L151 and P312 lines are found, which would require fairly massive surveys.

The biggest problem might be that the regions where the most basal versions settled from 3000 BC onward are now under modern cities that have been continuously occupied since then. So to find them, we would have to dig under those cities—which makes it very unlikely we’ll recover those missing links.

Have you these diverse successive subclades in Iberia before 2500? I have confidence only on this kind of found...
My personal view is that the path was P51 around Carpathians, P151 around Hungary or North of it, P312 around Southern Germany, even if at first I didn't discard a southern road for grand' parents P51 westwards -
Concerning steppes ancestry, what we have at hand is a very noticeable input only at BA in Iberia, between 2000 BC and 1500 BC approximatively (I jump over the details).
I never heard of this paleo-Balkans ancestry and should be very happy to have clues on this; and what is meant exactly by 'paleo-Balkan' ancestry?
I understand what you mean with your "recessive" term for auDNA equilibre - Sure everyone knows that kind of partial endogamy existed among elites. But there is no obligation of so a process to maintain an auDNA proportion after a crossing is stabilized. So many genes are in cause that it needs a very long time before a maximum of the rarest genes will be eliminated.
So I wait for new infos about ancient founds of Y-R1b post-L23 (which I see rather NORTH the Caucasus as origin)

 

[MOESAN]

M269 has three main branches: L23 has a well-established epicenter around the Black Sea, PF7562 in the Balkans, and L51 appears in Samara but at very late dates to be direct ancestors of P310 and L151.

And the L151 and P310 individuals we know from northern Europe date from between 3000–2500 BC, which is also too late to be ancestral. Therefore, they would be extinct or basal versions today, and would not fall under L151>.

The only possibility I can think of is that they moved through the Mediterranean, from the Aegean to the West. In PCAs, with the bias of K47, many of the P312 samples from between 2600–2000 BC show an average of 10% paleo-Balkan ancestry.

I also open the possibility that in the Aegean, L151 diversified in two different directions: those who migrated northward via the Danube became U106, and those who migrated westward through the Mediterranean became P312.

At that time, P312 and U106 groups would have spoken some type of Proto-Indo-European language, mutually intelligible to some extent, and part of them would merge later in the Unetice culture.

Between 1500–700 BC, the Tartessians, Iberians, and Etruscans would have adopted other local languages, deformed by the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet, while the cultures closest to the Atlantic spoke different types of Celtic, and the Lusitanians spoke a type of Indo-European that predates Celtic.

For me, what matters is that by 2500 BC, the following groups were already well established:

• Hispanics: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• Gauls: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• British Isles: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, DF13*
• Italics: L151, P312, U152*, L2*
• Germans: L151, U106, R1a-Z283

It’s not that they arrived in 2500 BC, but that by then they were already established.

So everything important must have happened between 3000–2500 BC, and there were no Yamnaya-type invasion waves.

When I refer to recessive endogamy of L151, I mean that if between 3000–1500 BC there was only one type of male (over 80%), over generations the “steppe” admixture (which is actually all that is recessive in M343>L151) stabilized at around 15–30%, with the rest being Anatolian Neolithic and hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is why the steppe component persisted—it was not due to constant influx from the steppe.

Practicing 12.5% endogamy is a method still used by castes in certain religions. It’s a long-term strategy to consolidate a lineage and displace others—basically eugenic racism.

If you introduce a single person with 100% “steppe” ancestry into a culture with 100% Anatolian ancestry, normally after 4 generations that component would drop to 12.5%, and after 6 generations it would be nearly 0%.

In P312 groups, it persisted due to the kind of endogamy they practiced, especially between 2500–1000 BC.

Having over 50% of a single haplogroup across such a large population is not normal; it doesn’t happen randomly. It requires at least 1500 years of a functioning cult.

Since we don’t have much more archaeogenetic data—and getting it is extremely hard—we are starting to look for very rare individuals among L51>L151. We can only gather more information through current populations and by identifying where the most basal L151 and P312 lines are found, which would require fairly massive surveys.

The biggest problem might be that the regions where the most basal versions settled from 3000 BC onward are now under modern cities that have been continuously occupied since then. So to find them, we would have to dig under those cities—which makes it very unlikely we’ll recover those missing links.

Have you these diverse successive subclades in Iberia before 2500? I have confidence only on this kind of found...
My personal view is that the path was P51 around Carpathians, P151 around Hungary or North of it, P312 around Southern Germany, even if at first I didn't discard a southern road for grand' parents P51 westwards -
Concerning steppes ancestry, what we have at hand is a very noticeable input only at BA in Iberia, between 2000 BC and 1500 BC approximatively (I jump over the details).
I never heard of this paleo-Balkans ancestry and should be very happy to have clues on this; and what is meant exactly by 'paleo-Balkan' ancestry?
I understand what you mean with your "recessive" term for auDNA equilibre - Sure everyone knows that kind of partial endogamy existed among elites. But there is no obligation of so a process to maintain an auDNA proportion after a crossing is stabilized. So many genes are in cause that it needs a very long time before a maximum of the rarest genes will be eliminated.
So I wait for new infos about ancient founds of Y-R1b post-L23 (which I see rather NORTH the Caucasus as origin)

 

[MOESAN]

M269 has three main branches: L23 has a well-established epicenter around the Black Sea, PF7562 in the Balkans, and L51 appears in Samara but at very late dates to be direct ancestors of P310 and L151.

And the L151 and P310 individuals we know from northern Europe date from between 3000–2500 BC, which is also too late to be ancestral. Therefore, they would be extinct or basal versions today, and would not fall under L151>.

The only possibility I can think of is that they moved through the Mediterranean, from the Aegean to the West. In PCAs, with the bias of K47, many of the P312 samples from between 2600–2000 BC show an average of 10% paleo-Balkan ancestry.

I also open the possibility that in the Aegean, L151 diversified in two different directions: those who migrated northward via the Danube became U106, and those who migrated westward through the Mediterranean became P312.

At that time, P312 and U106 groups would have spoken some type of Proto-Indo-European language, mutually intelligible to some extent, and part of them would merge later in the Unetice culture.

Between 1500–700 BC, the Tartessians, Iberians, and Etruscans would have adopted other local languages, deformed by the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet, while the cultures closest to the Atlantic spoke different types of Celtic, and the Lusitanians spoke a type of Indo-European that predates Celtic.

For me, what matters is that by 2500 BC, the following groups were already well established:

• Hispanics: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• Gauls: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• British Isles: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, DF13*
• Italics: L151, P312, U152*, L2*
• Germans: L151, U106, R1a-Z283

It’s not that they arrived in 2500 BC, but that by then they were already established.

So everything important must have happened between 3000–2500 BC, and there were no Yamnaya-type invasion waves.

When I refer to recessive endogamy of L151, I mean that if between 3000–1500 BC there was only one type of male (over 80%), over generations the “steppe” admixture (which is actually all that is recessive in M343>L151) stabilized at around 15–30%, with the rest being Anatolian Neolithic and hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is why the steppe component persisted—it was not due to constant influx from the steppe.

Practicing 12.5% endogamy is a method still used by castes in certain religions. It’s a long-term strategy to consolidate a lineage and displace others—basically eugenic racism.

If you introduce a single person with 100% “steppe” ancestry into a culture with 100% Anatolian ancestry, normally after 4 generations that component would drop to 12.5%, and after 6 generations it would be nearly 0%.

In P312 groups, it persisted due to the kind of endogamy they practiced, especially between 2500–1000 BC.

Having over 50% of a single haplogroup across such a large population is not normal; it doesn’t happen randomly. It requires at least 1500 years of a functioning cult.

Since we don’t have much more archaeogenetic data—and getting it is extremely hard—we are starting to look for very rare individuals among L51>L151. We can only gather more information through current populations and by identifying where the most basal L151 and P312 lines are found, which would require fairly massive surveys.

The biggest problem might be that the regions where the most basal versions settled from 3000 BC onward are now under modern cities that have been continuously occupied since then. So to find them, we would have to dig under those cities—which makes it very unlikely we’ll recover those missing links.

Have you these diverse successive subclades in Iberia before 2500? I have confidence only on this kind of found...
My personal view is that the path was P51 around Carpathians, P151 around Hungary or North of it, P312 around Southern Germany, even if at first I didn't discard a southern road for grand' parents P51 westwards -
Concerning steppes ancestry, what we have at hand is a very noticeable input only at BA in Iberia, between 2000 BC and 1500 BC approximatively (I jump over the details).
I never heard of this paleo-Balkans ancestry and should be very happy to have clues on this; and what is meant exactly by 'paleo-Balkan' ancestry?
I understand what you mean with your "recessive" term for auDNA equilibre - Sure everyone knows that kind of partial endogamy existed among elites. But there is no obligation of so a process to maintain an auDNA proportion after a crossing is stabilized. So many genes are in cause that it needs a very long time before a maximum of the rarest genes will be eliminated.
So I wait for new infos about ancient founds of Y-R1b post-L23 (which I see rather NORTH the Caucasus as origin)

 

[—BoNe—]

¿Tienes estos diversos subclados sucesivos en Iberia antes del año 2500? Solo confío en este tipo de hallazgos...
Mi opinión personal es que el camino era P51 alrededor de los Cárpatos, P151 alrededor de Hungría o al norte de ella, P312 alrededor del sur de Alemania, incluso si al principio no descarté una carretera del sur para los abuelos P51 hacia el oeste.
En cuanto a la ascendencia esteparia, lo que tenemos a mano es un input muy destacable sólo en BA en Iberia, entre el 2000 a.C. y el 1500 a.C. aproximadamente (salto los detalles).
Nunca he oído hablar de esta ascendencia paleobalcánica y me alegraría mucho tener pistas al respecto; y ¿qué se entiende exactamente por ascendencia “paleobalcánica”?
Entiendo a qué te refieres con tu término "recesivo" para el equilibrio del ADNau. Seguro que todos saben que ese tipo de endogamia parcial existía entre las élites. Pero no existe la obligación de un proceso para mantener una proporción de ADNau después de que se estabiliza un cruce. Hay tantos genes en la causa que se necesita mucho tiempo antes de que se elimine el máximo de los genes más raros.
Así que espero nueva información sobre los antiguos hallazgos de Y-R1b posteriores a L23 (que veo más bien al NORTE del Cáucaso como origen).

The problem with the samples belonging to subclades prior to L151> is that they’re virtually nowhere to be found — especially P312, which appears right around 2500 BC in multiple places at once and already derived.

I believe the Iberian Peninsula is the only region that has truly analyzed its current populations. The genetic history of the Basques and Catalans is complete — they’ve been Z195> since around 2600 BC. When compared to other countries, they come out as being on average 200–300 years older than the rest of Z195 carriers. And in the western part, we have zz12_1, which seems to be even older than Z195*.

So, considering that only in Czechia (I believe) have L151 samples been found dating to between 2900–2700 BC — and that Czechia doesn’t show the most basal subclades of P312 — I don’t believe they could have originated there. P312 seems more Franco-Cantabrian in nature.

The “Paleo-Balkan” marker caught my attention not because of its percentage (which is very low — most have 3–4%, with the highest around 8–10% in the K47 admixture), but because of its consistent appearance.

(I don’t consider these admixture tools very reliable, as I’ve said in other threads, but they are useful for triangulation and elimination.)

What stands out to me is that 70% of the R1b-L151> ancient samples carry it, regardless of the date — as if it were some sort of recessive marker linked to a region in the Aegean where they may have stayed for a brief period. Baltic and Finnic components also tend to appear repeatedly in many cases.

This one has 6% and is the oldest known P312 in Iberia, around 2500 BC (I believe they later confirmed it also carried the DF27 mutation):

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

This one has 7%:

I1840 - R-L151 / H3ap - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I1840

www.theytree.com

This one 8%:

VAD004 - R-L151 / J1c3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：VAD004

www.theytree.com

A Swiss sample with 8%:

瑞士新石器时代晚期古人 MX254_2 - R-L2 / H+16129 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：瑞士新石器时代晚期古人 MX254_2

www.theytree.com

The Y chromosome makes up only about 2% of the genome, but it can reveal recessive traces of where its earlier mutations occurred. If — as I propose in my hypothesis — the P310 lineage spent 200 years in the Aegean practicing endogamy with Balkan populations, that could explain why many of them carried this “Paleo-Balkan” component.

The problem with ancient DNA is that we know certain alleles are “exclusive” to certain regions or cultures — but not when they appeared.


Regarding the origin of our great-grandfathers like M269 and L23… I think P297 lived in the Göbekli Tepe region. I believe the steppe was always more associated with R1a.

It’s clear that we spent some time on the steppe, but I think it was for less time than commonly believed, and that we left long before the Yamnaya culture even formed.

 

[MOESAN]

M269 has three main branches: L23 has a well-established epicenter around the Black Sea, PF7562 in the Balkans, and L51 appears in Samara but at very late dates to be direct ancestors of P310 and L151.

And the L151 and P310 individuals we know from northern Europe date from between 3000–2500 BC, which is also too late to be ancestral. Therefore, they would be extinct or basal versions today, and would not fall under L151>.

The only possibility I can think of is that they moved through the Mediterranean, from the Aegean to the West. In PCAs, with the bias of K47, many of the P312 samples from between 2600–2000 BC show an average of 10% paleo-Balkan ancestry.

I also open the possibility that in the Aegean, L151 diversified in two different directions: those who migrated northward via the Danube became U106, and those who migrated westward through the Mediterranean became P312.

At that time, P312 and U106 groups would have spoken some type of Proto-Indo-European language, mutually intelligible to some extent, and part of them would merge later in the Unetice culture.

Between 1500–700 BC, the Tartessians, Iberians, and Etruscans would have adopted other local languages, deformed by the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet, while the cultures closest to the Atlantic spoke different types of Celtic, and the Lusitanians spoke a type of Indo-European that predates Celtic.

For me, what matters is that by 2500 BC, the following groups were already well established:

• Hispanics: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• Gauls: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• British Isles: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, DF13*
• Italics: L151, P312, U152*, L2*
• Germans: L151, U106, R1a-Z283

It’s not that they arrived in 2500 BC, but that by then they were already established.

So everything important must have happened between 3000–2500 BC, and there were no Yamnaya-type invasion waves.

When I refer to recessive endogamy of L151, I mean that if between 3000–1500 BC there was only one type of male (over 80%), over generations the “steppe” admixture (which is actually all that is recessive in M343>L151) stabilized at around 15–30%, with the rest being Anatolian Neolithic and hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is why the steppe component persisted—it was not due to constant influx from the steppe.

Practicing 12.5% endogamy is a method still used by castes in certain religions. It’s a long-term strategy to consolidate a lineage and displace others—basically eugenic racism.

If you introduce a single person with 100% “steppe” ancestry into a culture with 100% Anatolian ancestry, normally after 4 generations that component would drop to 12.5%, and after 6 generations it would be nearly 0%.

In P312 groups, it persisted due to the kind of endogamy they practiced, especially between 2500–1000 BC.

Having over 50% of a single haplogroup across such a large population is not normal; it doesn’t happen randomly. It requires at least 1500 years of a functioning cult.

Since we don’t have much more archaeogenetic data—and getting it is extremely hard—we are starting to look for very rare individuals among L51>L151. We can only gather more information through current populations and by identifying where the most basal L151 and P312 lines are found, which would require fairly massive surveys.

The biggest problem might be that the regions where the most basal versions settled from 3000 BC onward are now under modern cities that have been continuously occupied since then. So to find them, we would have to dig under those cities—which makes it very unlikely we’ll recover those missing links.

Have you these diverse successive subclades in Iberia before 2500? I have confidence only on this kind of found...
My personal view is that the path was P51 around Carpathians, P151 around Hungary or North of it, P312 around Southern Germany, even if at first I didn't discard a southern road for grand' parents P51 westwards -
Concerning steppes ancestry, what we have at hand is a very noticeable input only at BA in Iberia, between 2000 BC and 1500 BC approximatively (I jump over the details).
I never heard of this paleo-Balkans ancestry and should be very happy to have clues on this; and what is meant exactly by 'paleo-Balkan' ancestry?
I understand what you mean with your "recessive" term for auDNA equilibre - Sure everyone knows that kind of partial endogamy existed among elites. But there is no obligation of so a process to maintain an auDNA proportion after a crossing is stabilized. So many genes are in cause that it needs a very long time before a maximum of the rarest genes will be eliminated.
So I wait for new infos about ancient founds of Y-R1b post-L23 (which I see rather NORTH the Caucasus as origin)

 

[MOESAN]

M269 has three main branches: L23 has a well-established epicenter around the Black Sea, PF7562 in the Balkans, and L51 appears in Samara but at very late dates to be direct ancestors of P310 and L151.

And the L151 and P310 individuals we know from northern Europe date from between 3000–2500 BC, which is also too late to be ancestral. Therefore, they would be extinct or basal versions today, and would not fall under L151>.

The only possibility I can think of is that they moved through the Mediterranean, from the Aegean to the West. In PCAs, with the bias of

The problem with the samples belonging to subclades prior to L151> is that they’re virtually nowhere to be found — especially P312, which appears right around 2500 BC in multiple places at once and already derived.

I believe the Iberian Peninsula is the only region that has truly analyzed its current populations. The genetic history of the Basques and Catalans is complete — they’ve been Z195> since around 2600 BC. When compared to other countries, they come out as being on average 200–300 years older than the rest of Z195 carriers. And in the western part, we have zz12_1, which seems to be even older than Z195*.

So, considering that only in Czechia (I believe) have L151 samples been found dating to between 2900–2700 BC — and that Czechia doesn’t show the most basal subclades of P312 — I don’t believe they could have originated there. P312 seems more Franco-Cantabrian in nature.

The “Paleo-Balkan” marker caught my attention not because of its percentage (which is very low — most have 3–4%, with the highest around 8–10% in the K47 admixture), but because of its consistent appearance.

(I don’t consider these admixture tools very reliable, as I’ve said in other threads, but they are useful for triangulation and elimination.)

What stands out to me is that 70% of the R1b-L151> ancient samples carry it, regardless of the date — as if it were some sort of recessive marker linked to a region in the Aegean where they may have stayed for a brief period. Baltic and Finnic components also tend to appear repeatedly in many cases.

This one has 6% and is the oldest known P312 in Iberia, around 2500 BC (I believe they later confirmed it also carried the DF27 mutation):

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

This one has 7%:

I1840 - R-L151 / H3ap - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I1840

www.theytree.com

This one 8%:

VAD004 - R-L151 / J1c3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：VAD004

www.theytree.com

A Swiss sample with 8%:

瑞士新石器时代晚期古人 MX254_2 - R-L2 / H+16129 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：瑞士新石器时代晚期古人 MX254_2

www.theytree.com

The Y chromosome makes up only about 2% of the genome, but it can reveal recessive traces of where its earlier mutations occurred. If — as I propose in my hypothesis — the P310 lineage spent 200 years in the Aegean practicing endogamy with Balkan populations, that could explain why many of them carried this “Paleo-Balkan” component.

The problem with ancient DNA is that we know certain alleles are “exclusive” to certain regions or cultures — but not when they appeared.


Regarding the origin of our great-grandfathers like M269 and L23… I think P297 lived in the Göbekli Tepe region. I believe the steppe was always more associated with R1a.

It’s clear that we spent some time on the steppe, but I think it was for less time than commonly believed, and that we left long before the Yamnaya culture even formed.

K47, many of the P312 samples from between 2600–2000 BC show an average of 10% paleo-Balkan ancestry.

I also open the possibility that in the Aegean, L151 diversified in two different directions: those who migrated northward via the Danube became U106, and those who migrated westward through the Mediterranean became P312.

At that time, P312 and U106 groups would have spoken some type of Proto-Indo-European language, mutually intelligible to some extent, and part of them would merge later in the Unetice culture.

Between 1500–700 BC, the Tartessians, Iberians, and Etruscans would have adopted other local languages, deformed by the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet, while the cultures closest to the Atlantic spoke different types of Celtic, and the Lusitanians spoke a type of Indo-European that predates Celtic.

For me, what matters is that by 2500 BC, the following groups were already well established:

• Hispanics: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• Gauls: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, U152*
• British Isles: L151, P312, L21*, DF27*, DF13*
• Italics: L151, P312, U152*, L2*
• Germans: L151, U106, R1a-Z283

It’s not that they arrived in 2500 BC, but that by then they were already established.

So everything important must have happened between 3000–2500 BC, and there were no Yamnaya-type invasion waves.

When I refer to recessive endogamy of L151, I mean that if between 3000–1500 BC there was only one type of male (over 80%), over generations the “steppe” admixture (which is actually all that is recessive in M343>L151) stabilized at around 15–30%, with the rest being Anatolian Neolithic and hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is why the steppe component persisted—it was not due to constant influx from the steppe.

Practicing 12.5% endogamy is a method still used by castes in certain religions. It’s a long-term strategy to consolidate a lineage and displace others—basically eugenic racism.

If you introduce a single person with 100% “steppe” ancestry into a culture with 100% Anatolian ancestry, normally after 4 generations that component would drop to 12.5%, and after 6 generations it would be nearly 0%.

In P312 groups, it persisted due to the kind of endogamy they practiced, especially between 2500–1000 BC.

Having over 50% of a single haplogroup across such a large population is not normal; it doesn’t happen randomly. It requires at least 1500 years of a functioning cult.

Since we don’t have much more archaeogenetic data—and getting it is extremely hard—we are starting to look for very rare individuals among L51>L151. We can only gather more information through current populations and by identifying where the most basal L151 and P312 lines are found, which would require fairly massive surveys.

The biggest problem might be that the regions where the most basal versions settled from 3000 BC onward are now under modern cities that have been continuously occupied since then. So to find them, we would have to dig under those cities—which makes it very unlikely we’ll recover those missing links.

Have you these diverse successive subclades in Iberia before 2500? I have confidence only on this kind of found...
My personal view is that the path was P51 around Carpathians, P151 around Hungary or North of it, P312 around Southern Germany, even if at first I didn't discard a southern road for grand' parents P51 westwards -
Concerning steppes ancestry, what we have at hand is a very noticeable input only at BA in Iberia, between 2000 BC and 1500 BC approximatively (I jump over the details).
I never heard of this paleo-Balkans ancestry and should be very happy to have clues on this; and what is meant exactly by 'paleo-Balkan' ancestry?
I understand what you mean with your "recessive" term for auDNA equilibre - Sure everyone knows that kind of partial endogamy existed among elites. But there is no obligation of so a process to maintain an auDNA proportion after a crossing is stabilized. So many genes are in cause that it needs a very long time before a maximum of the rarest genes will be eliminated.
So I wait for new infos about ancient founds of Y-R1b post-L23 (which I see rather NORTH the Caucasus as origin)

The problem with the samples belonging to subclades prior to L151> is that they’re virtually nowhere to be found — especially P312, which appears right around 2500 BC in multiple places at once and already derived.

I believe the Iberian Peninsula is the only region that has truly analyzed its current populations. The genetic history of the Basques and Catalans is complete — they’ve been Z195> since around 2600 BC. When compared to other countries, they come out as being on average 200–300 years older than the rest of Z195 carriers. And in the western part, we have zz12_1, which seems to be even older than Z195*.

So, considering that only in Czechia (I believe) have L151 samples been found dating to between 2900–2700 BC — and that Czechia doesn’t show the most basal subclades of P312 — I don’t believe they could have originated there. P312 seems more Franco-Cantabrian in nature.

The “Paleo-Balkan” marker caught my attention not because of its percentage (which is very low — most have 3–4%, with the highest around 8–10% in the K47 admixture), but because of its consistent appearance.

(I don’t consider these admixture tools very reliable, as I’ve said in other threads, but they are useful for triangulation and elimination.)

What stands out to me is that 70% of the R1b-L151> ancient samples carry it, regardless of the date — as if it were some sort of recessive marker linked to a region in the Aegean where they may have stayed for a brief period. Baltic and Finnic components also tend to appear repeatedly in many cases.

This one has 6% and is the oldest known P312 in Iberia, around 2500 BC (I believe they later confirmed it also carried the DF27 mutation):

EHU002 - R-P312 / K1a4a1 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree会员样本：EHU002

www.theytree.com

This one has 7%:

I1840 - R-L151 / H3ap - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：I1840

www.theytree.com

This one 8%:

VAD004 - R-L151 / J1c3 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：VAD004

www.theytree.com

A Swiss sample with 8%:

瑞士新石器时代晚期古人 MX254_2 - R-L2 / H+16129 - 祖源树TheYtree

祖源树TheYtree样本：瑞士新石器时代晚期古人 MX254_2

www.theytree.com

The Y chromosome makes up only about 2% of the genome, but it can reveal recessive traces of where its earlier mutations occurred. If — as I propose in my hypothesis — the P310 lineage spent 200 years in the Aegean practicing endogamy with Balkan populations, that could explain why many of them carried this “Paleo-Balkan” component.

The problem with ancient DNA is that we know certain alleles are “exclusive” to certain regions or cultures — but not when they appeared.


Regarding the origin of our great-grandfathers like M269 and L23… I think P297 lived in the Göbekli Tepe region. I believe the steppe was always more associated with R1a.

It’s clear that we spent some time on the steppe, but I think it was for less time than commonly believed, and that we left long before the Yamnaya culture even formed.

I give you an up-thumb not because I agree with all that you write but for your contribution and some clues to a gentlemen debate -
I've no firm theory yet - here uder some thoughts or observations in disorder:
- any kind of alphabet doesn't change the basic features of a language, even less when the written language is shared by a little part of the population -
- BB's pottery appeared around 2900 BC in Oberia but we don't have (except error) Y-R1b as old as that todate -
- the BB's typical artefacts expanded strongly in western Europe only around the 2500 BC (even until 2000BC), with a quick expansion of Y-R1b post L51 - It leaves 400 years for some individuals from somewhere (not by force of Iberia) to adopt part of the primary culture and to took the strong side, eventually with a strong clannic patriarcal society born maybe far enough from the first 'hearth' fo the BB's.
- 400 years (12-15 generations) is enough to drown auDNA -
- I wait for a definition of a 'paleo-Balkan' pop - BTW some final-Neolithic tell cultures of central Europe could have had a bit of this ancient pop, and pass this little bit to Steppic people passing around -
- I don't know but I hope you don't take TMRCA of a subclade found in a place in ancient times as a sure indication of its birth in this same place -

 

[—BoNe—]

I give you an up-thumb not because I agree with all that you write but for your contribution and some clues to a gentlemen debate -
I've no firm theory yet - here uder some thoughts or observations in disorder:
- any kind of alphabet doesn't change the basic features of a language, even less when the written language is shared by a little part of the population -
- BB's pottery appeared around 2900 BC in Oberia but we don't have (except error) Y-R1b as old as that todate -
- the BB's typical artefacts expanded strongly in western Europe only around the 2500 BC (even until 2000BC), with a quick expansion of Y-R1b post L51 - It leaves 400 years for some individuals from somewhere (not by force of Iberia) to adopt part of the primary culture and to took the strong side, eventually with a strong clannic patriarcal society born maybe far enough from the first 'hearth' fo the BB's.
- 400 years (12-15 generations) is enough to drown auDNA -
- I wait for a definition of a 'paleo-Balkan' pop - BTW some final-Neolithic tell cultures of central Europe could have had a bit of this ancient pop, and pass this little bit to Steppic people passing around -
- I don't know but I hope you don't take TMRCA of a subclade found in a place in ancient times as a sure indication of its birth in this same place -

I believe the Bell Beakers were a trade network, mainly dealing in metals, linked by certain elite lineages placed in strategic locations who conquered half of Europe in just about 20 years around 2500 BC. They can’t really be defined as Hispanic, Gallic, or Italic, but I do think all of them would have shared a very similar mythology. After 400 years of settlement in their respective areas, many of these relationships would break down and give rise to more distinct cultures.

As an example, in El Argar, there was contact with the Egyptians from 1700 BC onwards, as well as connections with the Canaanite Eastern Mediterranean. I believe some T-M70 and E-M34 may have already arrived around that time, since they are hardly found among the Phoenicians, but today they make up about 5–10% in the south, in what was the Tartessian region and the Talayotic culture.

This means that in a very short time, they could completely change in terms of language and customs. The Argar elites yielded 100% Z195 from 2200–1600 BC, and an R mtDNA lineage was also found, but the outer tombs haven’t been analyzed due to lack of funding.

I suppose this same situation that happens in Spain is common to all countries—there are still thousands of pieces of evidence yet to be uncovered.

It’s also worth remembering that few samples have been analyzed in the western part of Iberia or from Tartessos, but the few that do exist are all L151> and mostly DF27>.

Something tells me those Bell Beaker elites were more advanced in math and navigation than they appear at first glance. They would’ve used horses for watchposts and boats for trade. On their stelae, they engraved hexagonal figures (like those represented on their cloaks). The Pythagorean theorem is from 500 BC, but a Sumerian tablet from 2000 BC with the concept was discovered later. To me, that same knowledge is reflected in those hexagonal patterns, which later appear among the Greeks and Etruscans.

Look at the difference between J2 and L151: J2 is a haplogroup that made multiple migration waves, which is why, on average, they have a common ancestor dating back to 10,000 BC. But with L151, the TMRCA is always 500 or 1000 years.

If these were steppe migrations, we would expect to find M73 and its derivatives, Z2103 and its derivatives, V1636 and its derivatives… but none of that arrived, just a few Z2103 in the eastern area.

The mystery of L151 is very unique because it’s all so concentrated. It might have started as a clan, the clan became a sect, the sect became the Bell Beakers, and from the rupture of the Bell Beakers came the birth of the first proto-Celts and others who would later form the Roman Empire.

As for the “Paleobalkan” admixture, I don’t fully trust it because I don’t know on what basis that mix has been categorized. I suppose it was derived from samples from that region and time period—it just caught my attention how prevalent it is.


My rough timeline would be:

• 3500–2500 BC: exploration of Western Europe.
• 2500 BC: Bell Beaker trade network.
• 2000 BC: Bell Beaker breakup and birth of the first Proto-Celts.

Everything I write is my personal opinion and I’m completely open to debate. We have thousands of years of history and it’s impossible to cover it all, so it’s important to share different points of view in order to understand what we are discovering in the most coherent way possible.


An extra:

This is an elite Mycenaean:

https://www.theytree.com/usersample/edae5924ad044320dd8e7f71f5c93302.html

30% Mediterranean–Atlantic?

His mtDNA could be from the Vinča period.

Currently:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PF7563/

He has around 1000 descendants fitting into the Bell Beaker zones.

The Bell Beakers expanded as far as the Aegean and no further.

It’s possible the Mycenaeans stopped them around 2000 BC and then began to invade westward, but the R1b could only be preyed upon by another type of R1b.

What I’m getting at is that the Mycenaeans weren’t steppe descendants, but rather something more closely related to the Bell Beakers, and thus inheritors of the Mediterranean trade routes.

That’s the genetic profile that always accompanies the construction of cyclopean architecture and lime mortar.

 

[Pygmalion]

I believe the Bell Beakers were a trade network, mainly dealing in metals, linked by certain elite lineages placed in strategic locations who conquered half of Europe in just about 20 years around 2500 BC. They can’t really be defined as Hispanic, Gallic, or Italic, but I do think all of them would have shared a very similar mythology. After 400 years of settlement in their respective areas, many of these relationships would break down and give rise to more distinct cultures.

As an example, in El Argar, there was contact with the Egyptians from 1700 BC onwards, as well as connections with the Canaanite Eastern Mediterranean. I believe some T-M70 and E-M34 may have already arrived around that time, since they are hardly found among the Phoenicians, but today they make up about 5–10% in the south, in what was the Tartessian region and the Talayotic culture.

This means that in a very short time, they could completely change in terms of language and customs. The Argar elites yielded 100% Z195 from 2200–1600 BC, and an R mtDNA lineage was also found, but the outer tombs haven’t been analyzed due to lack of funding.

I suppose this same situation that happens in Spain is common to all countries—there are still thousands of pieces of evidence yet to be uncovered.

It’s also worth remembering that few samples have been analyzed in the western part of Iberia or from Tartessos, but the few that do exist are all L151> and mostly DF27>.

Something tells me those Bell Beaker elites were more advanced in math and navigation than they appear at first glance. They would’ve used horses for watchposts and boats for trade. On their stelae, they engraved hexagonal figures (like those represented on their cloaks). The Pythagorean theorem is from 500 BC, but a Sumerian tablet from 2000 BC with the concept was discovered later. To me, that same knowledge is reflected in those hexagonal patterns, which later appear among the Greeks and Etruscans.

Look at the difference between J2 and L151: J2 is a haplogroup that made multiple migration waves, which is why, on average, they have a common ancestor dating back to 10,000 BC. But with L151, the TMRCA is always 500 or 1000 years.

If these were steppe migrations, we would expect to find M73 and its derivatives, Z2103 and its derivatives, V1636 and its derivatives… but none of that arrived, just a few Z2103 in the eastern area.

The mystery of L151 is very unique because it’s all so concentrated. It might have started as a clan, the clan became a sect, the sect became the Bell Beakers, and from the rupture of the Bell Beakers came the birth of the first proto-Celts and others who would later form the Roman Empire.

As for the “Paleobalkan” admixture, I don’t fully trust it because I don’t know on what basis that mix has been categorized. I suppose it was derived from samples from that region and time period—it just caught my attention how prevalent it is.


My rough timeline would be:

• 3500–2500 BC: exploration of Western Europe.
• 2500 BC: Bell Beaker trade network.
• 2000 BC: Bell Beaker breakup and birth of the first Proto-Celts.

Everything I write is my personal opinion and I’m completely open to debate. We have thousands of years of history and it’s impossible to cover it all, so it’s important to share different points of view in order to understand what we are discovering in the most coherent way possible.


An extra:

This is an elite Mycenaean:

https://www.theytree.com/usersample/edae5924ad044320dd8e7f71f5c93302.html

30% Mediterranean–Atlantic?

His mtDNA could be from the Vinča period.

Currently:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PF7563/

He has around 1000 descendants fitting into the Bell Beaker zones.

The Bell Beakers expanded as far as the Aegean and no further.

It’s possible the Mycenaeans stopped them around 2000 BC and then began to invade westward, but the R1b could only be preyed upon by another type of R1b.

What I’m getting at is that the Mycenaeans weren’t steppe descendants, but rather something more closely related to the Bell Beakers, and thus inheritors of the Mediterranean trade routes.

That’s the genetic profile that always accompanies the construction of cyclopean architecture and lime mortar.

Cyclopean architecture doesn't usually entail the use of lime mortar, and normally it's not accompanied by a precise genetic profile, but it's present all over the world. Cyclopean walls were built in periods ranging from prehistory to a few century ago, depending on the place they were built in. There are some really early examples from prehistoric Malta, and some relatively recent ones from the New World. While perhaps the most famous ones are those dating to the Bronze Age, they became extremely popular again in the Hellenistic and Roman period, think of the Hellenistic/Republican period citadels of Mainland Italy or the numerous city walls and cyclopean structures in Hellenistic and Roman Anatolia, for example.

 

[—BoNe—]

Cyclopean architecture doesn't usually entail the use of lime mortar, and normally it's not accompanied by a precise genetic profile, but it's present all over the world. Cyclopean walls were built in periods ranging from prehistory to a few century ago, depending on the place they were built in. There are some really early examples from prehistoric Malta, and some relatively recent ones from the New World. While perhaps the most famous ones are those dating to the Bronze Age, they became extremely popular again in the Hellenistic and Roman period, think of the Hellenistic/Republican period citadels of Mainland Italy or the numerous city walls and cyclopean structures in Hellenistic and Roman Anatolia, for example.

From what I’ve researched, the earliest cyclopean constructions appeared in Sardinia around 1800 BC, developed by the Nuragic culture, mainly associated with haplogroups I2, G2, and M269> (and I don’t mind if U152 isn’t certified there yet—it’s probably already present).

In the 18th dynasty of Egypt, in their temples—although we don’t have confirmed haplogroups for earlier dynasties—the 18th is certified as R1b-M343, and they were likely within M269.

The Mycenaeans, around 1600–1200 BC, were associated with M269>PF7562 and J2.

The Talaiotic culture in the Balearic Islands, around 1200 BC, shows presence of DF27>Z195 and Z220.

The Gauls in the Ligurian area around 1200 BC had M269>U152 and DF27.

Central and northern Italy around 1200 BC had M269>U152.

And with stone and lime, we have multiple cases of M269>DF27>Z195 and ZZ12 in the regions of Los Millares and El Argar, or the “Motillas” of Azuer in the east, and Zambujal near Lisbon in the west.

These date back to around 3200–2200 BC and are still standing. (I2 and G2 were abundant until the arrival of M269>)

The common factor for me is clearly M269>, and even if it wasn’t the inventor, it was the one who expanded it the most.

The Egyptians had a god-like level of development by 1500 BC, and that wasn’t matched until 500 BC by the classical Greeks.

By combining and gathering all the knowledge of the Mediterranean, the Roman Empire ultimately won the game.

 

[Pygmalion]

From what I’ve researched, the earliest cyclopean constructions appeared in Sardinia around 1800 BC, developed by the Nuragic culture, mainly associated with haplogroups I2, G2, and M269> (and I don’t mind if U152 isn’t certified there yet—it’s probably already present).

In the 18th dynasty of Egypt, in their temples—although we don’t have confirmed haplogroups for earlier dynasties—the 18th is certified as R1b-M343, and they were likely within M269.

The Mycenaeans, around 1600–1200 BC, were associated with M269>PF7562 and J2.

The Talaiotic culture in the Balearic Islands, around 1200 BC, shows presence of DF27>Z195 and Z220.

The Gauls in the Ligurian area around 1200 BC had M269>U152 and DF27.

Central and northern Italy around 1200 BC had M269>U152.

And with stone and lime, we have multiple cases of M269>DF27>Z195 and ZZ12 in the regions of Los Millares and El Argar, or the “Motillas” of Azuer in the east, and Zambujal near Lisbon in the west.

These date back to around 3200–2200 BC and are still standing. (I2 and G2 were abundant until the arrival of M269>)

The common factor for me is clearly M269>, and even if it wasn’t the inventor, it was the one who expanded it the most.

The Egyptians had a god-like level of development by 1500 BC, and that wasn’t matched until 500 BC by the classical Greeks.

By combining and gathering all the knowledge of the Mediterranean, the Roman Empire ultimately won the game.

There are earlier exampes, in Malta for example the Ġgantija temple complex dates to the fourth millennium BC, in Sardinia itself there are Monte Claro culture cyclopean walls like Monte Baranta dating to the third millennium BC, and there's also Monte D'Accoddi which dates to the fourth millennium BC and could be considered a precursor to cyclopean masonry although it's not fully cyclopean yet.

 

[—BoNe—]

There are earlier exampes, in Malta for example the Ġgantija temple complex dates to the fourth millennium BC, in Sardinia itself there are Monte Claro culture cyclopean walls like Monte Baranta dating to the third millennium BC, and there's also Monte D'Accoddi which dates to the fourth millennium BC and could be considered a precursor to cyclopean masonry although it's not fully cyclopean yet.

Very interesting, I didn’t know about them. As you rightly said, they are at the intermediate stage between megalithism and the beginning of working with straighter lines.

I also forgot to mention V88, which, along with I2 and G2, might have had something to do with it before they were decimated.