Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

[Gabriele Pashaj]

Not only false, it is dishonest, it is a deliberate lie. The people who are promoting it know this but deliberately promote falsehood.

Check this out: https://orientalreview.org/2018/02/...alkan-people-nothing-common-modern-albanians/. This Serbian PhD says the Albanians traveled from the Caucasus to Sicily, and then to today's Albania around 1043, and he cites a Byzantine historian of the time (endnote 12). This is a total lie. I read the whole section he quotes and there is NOTHING there about the Caucasus. He also cites two Albanian authors who he claims support this but without page numbers I can't verify if this is a lie, though I seriously doubt it because I know t least one of them doesn't hold such views. So it's all a fabrication.

As for the Vlachs, looking for Vlach ancestry further back than Roman Balkans is like searching for one region to find the ancestors of today's Brazilians. Y-DNA shows how heterogeneous their ancestry is. They were of different backgrounds, but they were united in being the citizens of the Roman Empire and speaking Latin.

Not only false but very OFFENSIVE in my opinion ....

 

[Johane Derite]

Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian
Martin E. Huld

Douglas Q. Adams Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. Taylor & Francis. p. 11."The loan words from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of the Albanians must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbors. As the Illyrians occupied the Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans."

The position of Albanian, Ancient IE dialects, Proceedings of the Conference on IE linguistics held at the University of California
Eric Hamp. Birnbaum, Henrik; Puhvel, Jaan, eds

These are just three serious scientific sources that testify to the contact that the Albanian language must have had with Ancient Greek, the Doric dialect specifically.

Your forced migration scenarios do not hold up woth respect to linguistic or genetic evidence.

 

[Dibran]

I don't smoke, I read. You should also quit smoking and take some fresh air. Check L23 Map and official ancient maps of Caucasus.
Arabanites and Serbs were divided by River Rha. South East Caucasus is high in L23 and highest in J2. That could be a coincidence unless we talk about same type of people.
Well, this thread is not about that, but figured a potential link between Vlachs and Albanians, that predate Balkans, in the so called Antes tribes.
It is obvious that were mostly led by rulers of Baltic-Thracian names, those nearby were Romans friendly, declared enemies, on behalf of the Romans, of the Ostrogoths, Sclavenes and Avars. For what it meant Avars after they conquered the Gepid Kingdom.

You’re definitely smoking something. For one, the J2 in the Caucasus is J2a. Albanians belong to J2b. They split thousands and thousands of years ago from J2.

Additionally, the clade of R1b-L23 Albanians belong is different from the Caucasus and also split thousands of years ago.

You need to research subclades/clusters more. Context is everything. You’re also spitting a flimsy origin story backed by non other than Serbs and others who spread BS.

 

[Gabriele Pashaj]

You’re definitely smoking something. For one, the J2 in the Caucasus is J2a. Albanians belong to J2b. They split thousands and thousands of years ago from J2.

Additionally, the clade of R1b-L23 Albanians belong is different from the Caucasus and also split thousands of years ago.

You need to research subclades/clusters more. Context is everything. You’re also spitting a flimsy origin story backed by non other than Serbs and others who spread BS.

It’s not about smoking.. it’s only very hard to our neighbours ( as Serbia) to recognize our different religion path ( yes... they really disagree with some Albanian choise to change religion during osman period) so they invent theories without viewing and takibg account of recent genetic researches.... it’s really hard for them but I’m optimistic for the future ... maybe they ‘ll stop making ‘caucasia’ propaganda ...


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[LABERIA]

It’s not about smoking.. it’s only very hard to our neighbours ( as Serbia) to recognize our different religion path ( yes... they really disagree with some Albanian choise to change religion during osman period) so they invent theories without viewing and takibg account of recent genetic researches.... it’s really hard for them but I’m optimistic for the future ... maybe they ‘ll stop making ‘caucasia’ propaganda ...


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It's not about religion. The discussion of religion serves to cover the real reasons. It's an complex of inferiority among our neighbors(not only Serbia), first of all. Second it's part of their chauvinistic propaganda against a nation that they consider enemy.

 

[Gabriele Pashaj]

It's not about religion. The discussion of religion serves to cover the real reasons. It's an complex of inferiority among our neighbors(not only Serbia), first of all. Second it's part of their chauvinistic propaganda against a nation that they consider enemy.

......... too sad [emoji29][emoji28]


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[AlGreen]

What you omit is that J2 in Albania is almost entirely J2b while in Caucus it is J2a.

J2b origin is Kura Araxes Culture. Oldest J2b to date was found in 'Tape' NW Iran, near Zagros Mts, an ancient Gatian area.

 

[Johane Derite]

J2b origin is Kura Araxes Culture. Oldest J2b to date was found in 'Tape' NW Iran, near Zagros Mts, an ancient Gatian area.

You were saying Albanians came 5th Century AD.

Kura Araxes existed 4000 BC - 2000 BC

 

[AlGreen]

You were saying Albanians came 5th Century AD.

Kura Araxes existed 4000 BC - 2000 BC

Kura Araxes shifted both sides since, in several waves, and was mainly J2b - R1b. We talk about the origin of J2b, where and when arrived is a complex matter to be analyzed. Age can tell. That's also not sure, since Arbereshe of South Italy mostly lack J2.
So is J2b defining to Albanians or is rather acquired in the area? Highest in Albanians is E3b1.
Most puzzling about Albanians is the weird lack of romanization, 700 years under Romans, next door, so to say;
Heavy balto-germanic influence and low proto-European.
No sane person can believe that Illyrians didn't acquire over millennia a solid Proto-European in mix.
Besides that, cheers to all nations and ethnic groups, wherever they are these days.

 

[AlGreen]

It's not about religion. The discussion of religion serves to cover the real reasons. It's an complex of inferiority among our neighbors(not only Serbia), first of all. Second it's part of their chauvinistic propaganda against a nation that they consider enemy.

Gosh no, love and peace to all Balkans. I'll come another day to discuss assumptions, based on my research. Cheers

 

[LABERIA]

Gosh no, love and peace to all Balkans. I'll come another day to discuss assumptions, based on my research. Cheers

Yeah, especially after reading this:

About 1310 BC Nemesis was born in Ramnus (N Peloponnese), to a Highland mother;
1260 Alaksandu (Paris) of Wilusha takes captive Helen and flees to Levant;
Allies of the Northern Rim join Ilion (Troad); In Northern Rim were Paeonian - Moesian and Mygdonian - Thracian tribes.

i will wait from you that next time probably you will explain how Bruce Lee was a vlach. His name is still used in certain parts of Bucarest, so nothing is impossible.

 

[Trojet]

Kura Araxes shifted both sides since, in several waves, and was mainly J2b - R1b. We talk about the origin of J2b, where and when arrived is a complex matter to be analyzed. Age can tell. That's also not sure, since Arbereshe of South Italy mostly lack J2.
So is J2b defining to Albanians or is rather acquired in the area? Highest in Albanians is E3b1.
Most puzzling about Albanians is the weird lack of romanization, 700 years under Romans, next door, so to say;
Heavy balto-germanic influence and low proto-European.
No sane person can believe that Illyrians didn't acquire over millennia a solid Proto-European in mix.
Besides that, cheers to all nations and ethnic groups, wherever they are these days.

You liar!! No J2b has been found in Kura Araxes culture to date.

Furthermore, the Albanian J2b is in the J2b-L283 branch, the same version that's found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) since ~1600 BCE.
https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-...l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

 

[Angela]

@AlGreen,
I see you're one of our new members who likes to post opinions which have no academic support.

I would suggest you catch up with your reading in terms not only of y haplogroups but of ancient dna before you state opinions which are in contradiction to known data.

No one is interested in outdated, or even worse, agenda driven comments. This isn't a flat earth society group.

 

[Sile]

This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection.
Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach.
11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia.
12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'.

As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).

By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans.
This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
Referring to great 'Slavic' migration into South Balkans and Thessaly, Kekaumenos spotted "Dacian and Bessi from above the Danube, that claimed revenge for lost lands" that settled in the areas of Thessaly and around. And assumingly other Antes were also considered part of the great Slavic migration by those who interpreted history of the areas in recent times.

Archeology shows that first migratory wave was assimilated into indigenous population, only the second wave of west Slavs imposed the language that was fixed and spread through the adoption of OCS into Moravia, Bulgaria and Kievan Rus.

Assumed Antes tribes were Drevelyans - in Pripet area, Dulebes - in Volhynia, Polans - South of Kiev, Severians - NE of Kiev, Tiberians - between Dnister and Prut, Ulachs - between Dnister and Dniper, White Croats - North of Carpathian in Galitia.

Ulach obviously is the turanic form of Vlach, given by Huns, Avars, Bulgars, dissaperead in 612 and reappered 200 years later in the same area of Antes Ulachs, as Vlachs. Most of Antes tribes carry Balto-Thracian names - like D(T)revelyan, Dulebes or Latin names, like Tiberian, Severian, Volhin/Voloh/Volyn(by Slavs), Ulach(by Turks) and Iranic White Croats, settled over indigenous Dacian Carpi, Costoboci, Buri, Anartes.. in and above North Carpathians.

Given all the facts is possible that at least part of todays Albanians were one of those Antes of Balto-Thracian origin;
most probably shifted into Balkans around or after the 5h Century, with the Ostrogoths or as Antes, as Roman allies.
were in the proximity of Latin Romans but not around Byzantine Greeks (after 612 East Roman Empire changed to Greek);
were not within the area of Slavic expansion, like happened to be other Antes tribes, after Sclavenes, Moravian, Kievan Rus expanded over and imposed the language.

Also important to note that Avar alliance brought into Central-East Europe what we know as White Huns,
Alan Sorbs (in Silesia 540-630), Iranic Hrvat and if we look at the map, where they came from in the 6th Century,
will notice that on their way from the East Caspian, through the South Caspian, White Huns - Avars brought Iranian Croats
and from North East Caucasus the Alan Sorbs. Also notice that the Avar homeland is in East Caucasus,
right along the land of Daghe - Dacian Arbanites. An area flooded with R1b - L23 and J2, just like Albania today.

If vlachs are Dacians, then there where some towns in Dardania and montenegro that where dacian

Quemedava was an ancient Dacian city in Dardania mentioned by Procopius.[1]

procopius mentions 2 other towns as well

 

[AlGreen]

Yeah, especially after reading this:

i will wait from you that next time probably you will explain how Bruce Lee was a vlach. His name is still used in certain parts of Bucarest, so nothing is impossible.

Don't know about Bruce Lees in Eastern Europe, but Bruce clan in Scotland is mostly R1b. Can we keep others away and focus on thread?

Isn't about Nemesis or Hercules or Bugs Bunny, is about the areas of Ramnus and Rim;
Vlachs don't call themselves Vlachs but sort of Raman, Ruman, Arman, Armun, from Rum/Rim;

Can't talk about Vlachs DNA without a properly documented history. Necessary to point out possible clues, related to origin, properly locate them in time; not only current genes and the Romance language; Romance language that others in the area mostly lack, even though the Roman Empire kept Balkans under Latin influence between 227 BC(Illyria) to 612 AD (Heraclius shifted to Greek). 800 years is a lot of time.

 

[AlGreen]

Eupedia

Excuse me, I thought I acquired the most recent info, quoting from this site:

"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect."
We can't talk DNA of an ethnic group without reviewing documented history.

 

[AlGreen]

Eupedia

@AlGreen,
I see you're one of our new members who likes to post opinions which have no academic support.

I would suggest you catch up with your reading in terms not only of y haplogroups but of ancient dna before you state opinions which are in contradiction to known data.

No one is interested in outdated, or even worse, agenda driven comments. This isn't a flat earth society group.

Excuse me, I thought I acquired the most recent info, quoting from this site:

"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect."
We can't talk DNA of an ethnic group without reviewing documented history.

 

[AlGreen]

I'm not used with this sort of dialog. You show lack of manners and also a serious lack of historical culture;

I quote from Eupedia:

"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect." ​

Tape - Tepe in NW Iran is the oldest J2 found to date. Romans defeated Carpathian Dacians twice, at Tape, located North Danube.

About 68 BC Romans encountered in South East Caucasus, around Zagros Mts, kingdoms of Getaru and Lupina. Given such names, origin and language they spoke is obvious. Pompey and Plutarch clearly mention that were "definitely" neither Armenian nor Iranian, were light, in contrast with the populations of the areas and their Rulers had typical Dacian Getae names like Oroezes, Cosis.
Getaru means exactly that - "the Get" and "Lupina" means exactly SheWolf, what the Dacian and Getae worshiped since their inception.

Going back in time, same area, Gati of Zagros are attested to have sacked several times Sumer and Akkadian Empires, between 4500 BC - 3900 BC.
What Culture was in South Caucasus that time? Culture that spread towards India and also arrived in Central Europe around 1800 -1600 BC?

Can talk about this for hours but no time and what for anyway. lol

If you guys wanna talk Albanians, I'll find you in Albanians thread.

 

[AlGreen]

Eupedia

You liar!! No J2b has been found in Kura Araxes culture to date.

Furthermore, the Albanian J2b is in the J2b-L283 branch, the same version that's found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) since ~1600 BCE.
https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-...l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

I'm not used with such dialog. You show lack of manners and also a serious lack of historical culture;

I quote from Eupedia:

"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect."
Observe 900 years TMRCA..

Tape - Tepe in NW Iran is the oldest J2 found to date. Romans defeated Carpathian Dacians twice, at Tape, located North Danube.

About 68 BC Romans encountered in South East Caucasus, around Zagros Mts, kingdoms of Getaru and Lupina. Given such names, origin and language they spoke is obvious. Pompey and Plutarch clearly mention that were "definitely" neither Armenian nor Iranian, were light, in contrast with the populations of the areas and their Rulers had typical Dacian Getae names like Oroezes, Cosis.
Getaru means exactly that - "the Get" and "Lupina" means exactly SheWolf, what the Dacian and Getae worshiped since their inception.

Going back in time, same area, Gati of Zagros are attested to have sacked several times Sumer and Akkadian Empires, between 4500 BC - 3900 BC.
What Culture was in South Caucasus that time? Culture that spread towards India and also arrived in Central Europe around 1800 -1600 BC?

Can talk about this for hours but no time and what for anyway.

If you guys wanna talk Albanians, I'll find you in Albanians thread. Thanks

 

[LABERIA]

Don't know about Bruce Lees in Eastern Europe, but Bruce clan in Scotland is mostly R1b. Can we keep others away and focus on thread?

Isn't about Nemesis or Hercules or Bugs Bunny, is about the areas of Ramnus and Rim;
Vlachs don't call themselves Vlachs but sort of Raman, Ruman, Arman, Armun, from Rum/Rim;

Can't talk about Vlachs DNA without a properly documented history. Necessary to point out possible clues, related to origin, properly locate them in time; not only current genes and the Romance language; Romance language that others in the area mostly lack, even though the Roman Empire kept Balkans under Latin influence between 227 BC(Illyria) to 612 AD (Heraclius shifted to Greek). 800 years is a lot of time.

Excuse me for my insistence, but when will you decide to answer my post nr 476?