J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Wanderer]

What do you mean "he wasn't basal". RISE408 LBA Armenia was never proven positive for any L283 downstreams. Again, as stated in my initial post, he was positive for 7 out of 7 called J-L283 equivalents, one of which is Z590, and negative for Z627. So he wasn't even in the J-Z600 subclade. That assumption was based on the Z590 SNP which we now know is at the same level as L283. If you want to see for yourself, go here and search for RISE408: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/

It seems you're having trouble understanding simple phylogeny and are suggesting that these modern Sardinian samples represent some ancient ones who have been proven to be there since ~5000 ybp. Ancient DNA trumps modern distribution. Furthermore, Sardinia is an isolated Mediterranean island which is also heavily overrepresented at YFull due to the 1200 Y sequences from the Francalacci study. And finally, there is many other "rare and basal" L283 besides Sardinia, including two confirmed L283+ and Z585- Balkan samples. But some will only look at the YFull tree, which obviously doesn't tell the whole picture.

No you are right about Z590.
I didnt know about the balkan -Z585 samples. I thought Z590 was down stream of JYP29. But I guess not.

 

[Wanderer]

I am reading population genomics of bronze age eurasia but I did a keyword search and it doesn't bring up haplogroup or J-L283. It just showing alot of autosomal comparisons.

The graph of the haplogroups in this study appears only to go up to J2b. I don't want to pay to look at it so I am looking through research gate. Where is the study that talks about rise 408 armenia's haplogroup at J-L283? Or did someone get access to it and not publish a study yet?

 

[Wanderer]

Where is the 2 balkan basal J-L283 samples? I'd like read about a study if it has one for it. Or look at where its uploaded. Because its not on the FTDNA project. And I have never seen it there.

If you do have those rare balkan J-L283 samples.
The problem with the armenian DNA sample is that its not even 3000-2500BC years old. Its ancient, yea but the estimated time of occurance for mutation is still much older than what the actual sample . And is dated 1109BC. We only know that J-L283 had presence in armenia 1109BC. But we have a clade much more downstream in the balkans in croatia at 1600BC. And theres no other basal clades around armenia. But if the armenia project manages to find other basal clades id be convinced that the first J-L283 certainly did start around armenia.
But the balkans is more likely than armenia in my opinion.

We at least have a handful of basal samples in sardinia.

I have not seen the basal balkan samples though.

Georgians dont appear to have J-L283 on their project which is weird

 

[Wanderer]

From wiki
States that herodotus states that armenians were phyrgians

Phrygians came from the balkans

Phyrgians were

Spoiler

The Armenian Highland is the area surrounding Mount Ararat, the highest peak of the region.
A controversial hypothesis put forward by some scholars, such as T. Gamkrelidze and V. Ivanov, has proposed that the Indo-European homeland was around the Armenian Highland.[36]
The modern Armenian language is often grouped with Greek and Ancient Macedonian("Helleno-Macedonian") in the Pontic Indo-European (also called Helleno-Armenian)subgroup of Indo-European languages by Eric P. Hamp in his 2012 Indo-European family tree, groups .[37] There are two possible explanations, not mutually exclusive, for a common origin of the Armenian and Greek languages.

Ancient Greek scholars, such as Herodotus(writing circa 440 BC), suggest that the Phrygians of western Anatolia, who spoke an Indo-European language, had also made a contribution to the ethnogenesis of the Armenians: "the Armenians were equipped like Phrygians, being Phrygian colonists" (7.73) (Ἀρμένιοι δὲ κατά περ Φρύγες ἐσεσάχατο, ἐόντες Φρυγῶν ἄποικοι.). This appears to imply that some Phrygians migrated eastward to Armenia following the destruction of Phrygia by a Cimmerianinvasion in the late 7th century BC. Greek scholars also believed that the Phrygians had originated in the Balkans, in an area adjoining Macedonia, from where they had emigrated to Anatolia many centuries earlier.

In Hamp's view the homeland of the proposed Greco-Armenian subgroup is the northeast coast of the Black Sea and its hinterlands.[37] He assumes that they migrated from there southeast through the Caucasus with the Armenians remaining after Batumi while the pre-Greeks proceeded westwards along the southern coast of the Black Sea.[37]

Some genetics studies explain Armenian diversity by several mixtures of Eurasian populations that occurred between ~3,000 and ~2,000 BC. But genetic signals of population mixture cease after ~1,200 BC when Bronze Age civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean world suddenly and violently collapsed. Armenians have since remained isolated and genetic structure within the population developed ~500 years ago when Armenia was divided between the Ottomans and the Safavid Empire in Iran.[38][39]
In the Bronze Age, several states flourished in the area of Greater Armenia, including the Hittite Empire (at the height of its power), Mitanni (South-Western historical Armenia), and Hayasa-Azzi (1600–1200 BC). Soon after Hayasa-Azzi came Arme-Shupria (1300s–1190 BC), the Nairi (1400–1000 BC) and the Kingdom of Urartu (860–590 BC), who successively established their sovereignty over the Armenian Highland. Each of the aforementioned nations and tribes participated in the ethnogenesis of the Armenian people.[40] Under Ashurbanipal(669–627 BC), the Assyrian empire reached the Caucasus Mountains (modern Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan).[41]

 

[Dema]

Where is the 2 balkan basal J-L283 samples? I'd like read about a study if it has one for it. Or look at where its uploaded. Because its not on the FTDNA project. And I have never seen it there.

If you do have those rare balkan J-L283 samples.
The problem with the armenian DNA sample is that its not even 3000-2500BC years old. Its ancient, yea but the estimated time of occurance for mutation is still much older than what the actual sample . And is dated 1109BC. We only know that J-L283 had presence in armenia 1109BC. But we have a clade much more downstream in the balkans in croatia at 1600BC. And theres no other basal clades around armenia. But if the armenia project manages to find other basal clades id be convinced that the first J-L283 certainly did start around armenia.
But the balkans is more likely than armenia in my opinion.

We at least have a handful of basal samples in sardinia.

I have not seen the basal balkan samples though.

Georgians dont appear to have J-L283 on their project which is weird

You seem not to understand, both Armenia and Balkan ancient samples are most likely from Bronze Age Indo-European expansions. As TMRCA and distribution also suggest, J2-L283 spread with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans into Europe.
Sardinian sample with earlier separation means nothing. He is just survived off-shot that managed to survive bottleneck most likely due to isolation that Sardinia provides.
We have cases like that in other branches too, they on their own dont prove anything.

Read this:

Along with I4331, there was an adult female in the same burial mound. Their genomes possess considerable amount of Steppe admixture and have mtDNA that has been found in the Steppe area. Combined with the fact that to date we have no J2b2a-L283 from Neolithic Europe, as well as other data, a Bronze Age (Indo-European) expansion is likely.

https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-...l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/


So considering TMRCA, distribution and ancient DNA analysis, it was for sure present at Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes as they are also of Indo-European origin as their language suggests.
Colonization of Sardinia for sure occurred after the arriving on previously mentioned territories.

 

[Wanderer]

You seem not to understand, both Armenia and Balkan ancient samples are most likely from Bronze Age Indo-European expansions. As TMRCA and distribution also suggest, J2-L283 spread with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans into Europe.
Sardinian sample with earlier separation means nothing. He is just survived off-shot that managed to survive bottleneck most likely due to isolation that Sardinia provides.
We have cases like that in other branches too, they on their own dont prove anything.

Read this:




https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-...l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/


So considering TMRCA, distribution and ancient DNA analysis, it was for sure present at Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes as they are also of Indo-European origin as their language suggests.
Colonization of Sardinia for sure occurred after the arriving on previously mentioned territories.

Do we really know how ancient sardinians spoke?

Isnt their language largely inluenced from rome and italy from recent times?

Is there mtdna from sardinian matching with steppe samples?

 

[Wanderer]

Do we really know how ancient sardinians spoke?

Isnt their language largely inluenced from rome and italy from recent times?

Is there mtdna from sardinian matching with steppe samples?

we also dont even see basal J-L283 in greek islands. And the greeks on those islands thousands of years ago pushed off the original inhabitants out of the agean. But the cyclades was trading with sardinia before mainland greeks came and pushed out the original inhabitants

 

[Gash]

Obviously, but I can't say that J2b came straight from the Steppe to Albania in the Bronze Age. We just don't know. The J2b2 sample from Croatia at least is evidence of a recent migration from the Steppe.

It isn't fresh off the Steppes nor is there any evidence for it. The Ilyrians migrated from Central Europe , Hallstatt, it would be impossible for this sample being Ilyrian to be fresh off the steppe. Nor is there any evidence for it.

What we know is that it was found at a Bronze Age site which makes it likely a proto Ilyrian or from a Indo European colonisation of the Western Balkans, but not fresh off the Steppes. It most likely came fresh from central Europe rather where it absorbed some Neolithic possibly. Then migrating into the Balkans.

This is the most plausible theory IMO.

It also leaves open the possibility that J2b2 could be Neolithic or Mesolithic (less likely) but absorbed into a Indo European lineage eventually.

 

[Sile]

do you have any link to this statement
.
After the Great Illyrian revolt ............Rome dispersed of 150000 illyrian to other places in the empire.
.
The Great Illyrian Revolt
Rome's Forgotten War in the Balkans, AD 6–9
Jason R Abdale
.
the war was only fought in Dalmatia and Pannonia

.
the alps where only conquered 15 years earlier by Augustus

the bulk of illyrian populace comes via the dalmatians and pannonians as per below
.

.
the ardiaei are the most southern of these tribes living in modern coastal Montenegro
.
as per Roman "census" records a decuria was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decury

 

[Trojet]

the bulk of illyrian populace comes via the dalmatians and pannonians as per below
.

.
the ardiaei are the most southern of these tribes living in modern coastal Montenegro
.
as per Roman "census" records a decuria was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decury

The Illyrians were recorded farther south than that, and not just Pannonia, Dalmatia, Montenegro. The above graph shows the Illyrian uprising against Rome and not all the territories they inhabited, which you seem to suggest.

Anyways, I'm not sure what your point is here, as this J-L283 was found in Dalmatia, which you consider as the "heartland" of the Illyrians

 

[Sile]

It isn't fresh off the Steppes nor is there any evidence for it. The Ilyrians migrated from Central Europe , Hallstatt, it would be impossible for this sample being Ilyrian to be fresh off the steppe. Nor is there any evidence for it.

What we know is that it was found at a Bronze Age site which makes it likely a proto Ilyrian or from a Indo European colonisation of the Western Balkans, but not fresh off the Steppes. It most likely came fresh from central Europe rather where it absorbed some Neolithic possibly. Then migrating into the Balkans.

This is the most plausible theory IMO.

It also leaves open the possibility that J2b2 could be Neolithic or Mesolithic (less likely) but absorbed into a Indo European lineage eventually.

Illyrians came from the steppe and settled in the eastern alps area ( central europe ) circa 1600BC .....they where neighbours of the celts who where north of them in modern south and central germany

 

[Gash]

I already know that and that is technically what I said but what's for sure is that they aren't fresh off the steppes. The Ilyrians didn't migrate directly from the steppes and into the Balkans. They settled in Central Europe before going down to Italy and the Western Balkans.

As for Ilyrians living only as south as Montenegro, that is not true. They lived all the way down to Greece. The Epirotes and Macedonians and the Thracians were probably related people. Ancient Macedonia was described as inhabited by the Thracians and Ilyrians

The first people that history recognises in this region are the Illyrians, a large and mighty nation living on the Adriatic Sea, from the Po to the Ambracian Gulf, and northwards to the Danube. Strabo believes that this people spread westwards to Lake Constance, through Noricum and Vindelicia. He also asserts that the Pannonians stemmed from this people. Appian notes clearly that the Pannonians were Illyrians. The Istrians, Japodes, Dalmatae, Liburnians, Dardanians, Ardiaei, Autariates, in short, all the peoples down to the Ceraunian mountains are generally regarded as Illyrians. But they also inhabited wide reaches of Macedonia, Epirus and Thessaly. Only a small portion of Macedonia was inhabited by the Greeks. The mass of the population was Illyrian and Thracian. The Dassaretae, the Lyncestae, the Bryges or Phrygians, the Pelagones, The Eordi, the Elimiotes, the Atintanes, the inhabitants of the region around Candavia, Pella, Edessa and Verva have all been expressly referred to as Illyrian. To a great extent, it was almost only the towns on the coast that had Greek inhabitants. The Macedonians had a language of their own that was also spoken in the regions along the Ionian Sea across from Corfu and, thus in Greek Illyria and Epirus. There were also many non-Greek peoples in Epirus who, as noted above, spoke the Macedonian language, or the Illyrian language, which was probably the same thing.But the Greek colonies here and the dynasty of Aeacides introduced the Greek language such that the various peoples spoke two languages. The Amphilochans further to the south also belonged to this group, and for this reason are also referred to as barbarians by Thucydides. In Thessaly there were also other peoples of foreign origin, such as the Perrhaedans, referred to by Appian as Illyrians, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei and the Penestae, the Helots of the Thessalians, who had probably been the same people as the Illyrian Penestae. Scylax notes that only beyond Ambracia, the Peneus and the town or mountain of Homotion in Magnesia, had the Greeks begun to inhabit the region in a compact manner. In Strabo’s time, the barbarians owned large parts of Greece, and he reports that the Thracians inhabited Macedonia and parts of Thessaly at that time.

Source:
from: Johann Thunmann, Über die Geschichte und Sprache der Albaner und der Wlachen (Leipzig 1774). Translated from the German by Robert Elsie.

 

[Sile]

I already know that and that is technically what I said but what's for sure is that they aren't fresh off the steppes. The Ilyrians didn't migrate directly from the steppes and into the Balkans. They settled in Central Europe before going down to Italy and the Western Balkans.

As for Ilyrians living only as south as Montenegro, that is not true. They lived all the way down to Greece. The Epirotes and Macedonians and the Thracians were probably related people. Ancient Macedonia was described as inhabited by the Thracians and Ilyrians

The first people that history recognises in this region are the Illyrians, a large and mighty nation living on the Adriatic Sea, from the Po to the Ambracian Gulf, and northwards to the Danube. Strabo believes that this people spread westwards to Lake Constance, through Noricum and Vindelicia. He also asserts that the Pannonians stemmed from this people. Appian notes clearly that the Pannonians were Illyrians. The Istrians, Japodes, Dalmatae, Liburnians, Dardanians, Ardiaei, Autariates, in short, all the peoples down to the Ceraunian mountains are generally regarded as Illyrians. But they also inhabited wide reaches of Macedonia, Epirus and Thessaly. Only a small portion of Macedonia was inhabited by the Greeks. The mass of the population was Illyrian and Thracian. The Dassaretae, the Lyncestae, the Bryges or Phrygians, the Pelagones, The Eordi, the Elimiotes, the Atintanes, the inhabitants of the region around Candavia, Pella, Edessa and Verva have all been expressly referred to as Illyrian. To a great extent, it was almost only the towns on the coast that had Greek inhabitants. The Macedonians had a language of their own that was also spoken in the regions along the Ionian Sea across from Corfu and, thus in Greek Illyria and Epirus. There were also many non-Greek peoples in Epirus who, as noted above, spoke the Macedonian language, or the Illyrian language, which was probably the same thing.But the Greek colonies here and the dynasty of Aeacides introduced the Greek language such that the various peoples spoke two languages. The Amphilochans further to the south also belonged to this group, and for this reason are also referred to as barbarians by Thucydides. In Thessaly there were also other peoples of foreign origin, such as the Perrhaedans, referred to by Appian as Illyrians, the Athamanes, the Aethices, the Tymphaei and the Penestae, the Helots of the Thessalians, who had probably been the same people as the Illyrian Penestae. Scylax notes that only beyond Ambracia, the Peneus and the town or mountain of Homotion in Magnesia, had the Greeks begun to inhabit the region in a compact manner. In Strabo’s time, the barbarians owned large parts of Greece, and he reports that the Thracians inhabited Macedonia and parts of Thessaly at that time.

Source:
from: Johann Thunmann, Über die Geschichte und Sprache der Albaner und der Wlachen (Leipzig 1774). Translated from the German by Robert Elsie.

Ambracia and the ambracia gulf are opposite the island of Corfu .............this indicates that the 14 epirote tribes are also noted as Illyrian

.
Corfu was the furthest south that the liburnians ruled until about 750BC when the corinthinas Greeks took it , plus created towns all along the coast from south Montenegro through albania and into NW Greece
.
I do not know if Epirotes are Illyrian or Greek or even a branch of Macedonians

 

[Johane Derite]

.
I do not know if Epirotes are Illyrian or Greek or even a branch of Macedonians

Below are the names of just some Illyrian tribes and some Epirote tribes that are very similar if not identical:

Illyrian: 'Atintani'
Epirote: 'Atintanes'


Illyrian: "Amantini" (in Pannonia)
Epirote: "Amantes"


Illyrian: "Autariatae"
Epirote: "Autariatae"


Illyrian: "Dassaretii" (Dalmatian coast)
"Dassaretae" between Macedonia and Epirus




Archeologists like Neritan Ceka claim that Epirote tribes were Hellenised Illyrians and the similarity in tribe names is one of their arguments.

Its surprising the lack of basic work that has been done here. Even NGL Hammond, who explicitly wrote a paper about the similarities of Epirote and Illyrian names, did not include any basic linguistic investigation or argument. He didn't even consult a third party linguist to ascertain which language these names most likely hail from i.e. Illyrian or Ancient Greek.

NGL Hammond was a philhellene so he argued (poorly in my opinion) that all these same names are effectively non-related coincidences. He basically uses references of different political affiliations of the tribes to say they are not related, or he argues that geographical distance means they are not related.

It makes no sense why he has no linguistic arguments, since this is first and foremost a linguistic issue and there are only three scenarios:

1. That the names have an Illyrian etymology
2. The names have a Greek etymology
3. That they both have their own respective etymologies but are by coincidence similar


SOURCE: The Illyrian Atintani, the Epirotic Atintanes and the Roman Protectorate by NGL Hammond

 

[Aspurg]

Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.

Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".

According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.

 

[Trojet]

Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.
Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".
According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.

Nice analysis, Aspurg

In regards to J-Z631, a couple of days ago a person with origin from Greece, who is a match to the Albanian J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, through BigY tested as Z631+ and negative for downstreams (Z1043 unknown as it's not well read by the BigY). I hope he uploads to YFull. So it certainly appears we have a third parallel J-Z631 line in Albania alone. Considering there is more interesting Z631 haplotypes in Albania and Montenegro, this is consistent with the idea that it expanded out of Western Balkans and the hypothesis you're bringing up. I think many of the Z631/Z1043 clades likely expanded through the Romans (for example, there seems to be a lot of Z631 diversity along the Rhine river), and possibly earlier assimilated by the expanding Celts also.

 

[Aspurg]

Nice analysis, Aspurg

In regards to J-Z631, a couple of days ago a person with origin from Greece, who is a match to the Albanian J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, through BigY tested as Z631+ and negative for downstreams (Z1043 unknown as it's not well read by the BigY). I hope he uploads to YFull. So it certainly appears we have a third parallel J-Z631 line in Albania alone. Considering there is more interesting Z631 haplotypes in Albania and Montenegro, this is consistent with the idea that it expanded out of Western Balkans and the hypothesis you're bringing up. I think many of the Z631/Z1043 clades likely expanded through the Romans (for example, there seems to be a lot of Z631 diversity along the Rhine river), and possibly earlier assimilated by the expanding Celts also.

Thanks. Interesting, that Greek even in worse case scenario would be some Z1043* so yes diversity is increasing in the West Balkan area for Z631 and importantly these are basal at Z631 level, indicating it spread from there. I agree that Romans likely spread some of it as well.
There is 485976 Croat J-Z1048 (Z8429-, Z8425- that used to be at Z8424 level?), I know he was estimated as possible PH1553, that's still high enough on Z631 tree.


What is interesting are also these five Z631 looking haplotypes from Romania, two are from Dolj and 3 from Brasov, which was one of core areas of the Basarabi culture. There were some Glasinac-Mati people apparently who migrated there to Dolj area and there were some influences between Basarabi and Glasinac-Mati culture. As I told you it seems to me especially due to CTS6377* and 3 CTS9320* results from Montana and Dolj (one more eastward Bulgarian 175170 CTS9320* seems certainly related to RU383 Dolj Romanian from this study due to mutliple non-modal matches) one of core Basarabi areas I went to associate CTS9320 with this culture and I think there might be a very strong connection between the two (alongside possibly some other cultures, like Gava etc.). So because of this migration Z631 also seems to me like a good match for Glasinac-Mati culture.
J-M241+
RU321 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 0 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU337 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU338 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU350 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 9 13 9 21
RU354 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 10 13 9 21


These seem certainly related because of non-modal dys388=14, so some dys388=14 Z631 might their best fit.


Also interesting is PH1602 because as Veliki Vanik find is Y15058+, there is one PH1602 result from Bosnia and one from Serbia (alongside Bulgarian but their TMRCA is only 1250 ybp), so PH1602 might easily also have something to do with Glasinac culture. PH1602 thus far is absent in Albania.

 

[Sile]

Illyrians were composed of several groups. There was a later LBA/EIA migration of various Urnfield culture elements and there are clearly identifiable Illyrian tribes some of whom differed considerably in their culture. J-L283 clades seem to have arrived earlier. Urnfield elements most likely included mutliple R1b U152 clades also quite possibly R-BY611, alongside some younger but very expansive E-V13 clades such as L241 and also Y145455, CTS9320 maybe some clades but this one has I believe more of a proto-Triballian/Daco-Moesian inspiration, and actually some of those people also joined Illyrians initially via alliances (like Atenica Illyrian burial) and later assimilation. Also J-ZS3128 fits there nicely. While Delmatae must have been dominantly J-L283 because their archaeological culture was a direct continuation of this culture where this L283 was found. I think generally L283 were more of aboriginal in comparison to Urnfield elements. Z631 seems very widespread even in a Celtic way but as already there are 2 Z631 clades in Albania, and there are some in Serbia and Montenegro which might prove to be some parallel clades, it might come to Z631 being connected with Glasinac-Mati Illyrian complex, because this complex in its core also should have included L283 clades. In such a case some Z631 could have been subsequently assimilated by Celts.
Whose language was Illyrian? Because I presume L283's and Unrfield Illyrians would have spoken different languages, and did some of those differences persist later in antiquity? That's much harder to say. There was according to Pliny a differentiation such as "Illyrians and real Illyrians/properly called Illyrians": Labeati, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei were "real Illyrians" while Taulanti and Pyraei were "Illyrians".
According to Pomponius Mela "quos proprie Illyrios tum Pyraei et Liburnii et Istrii", so here also Pyraei are after "real Illyrians" also and with Liburnii and Istrii, I suspect Liburnii might have been L283 and PH1246 (going by Cetina culture hypothesis for V13) so does this mean that "Illyrians" are these pre-Urnfield tribes? Not sure, but it's worthy to explore further.

Check Byzantine records as the people called triballi are the Serbs, 100% thracian area same as Moesia superior and Moesia lesser
.
illyrian belongs to:
Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)

 

[Trojet]

Thanks. Interesting, that Greek even in worse case scenario would be some Z1043* so yes diversity is increasing in the West Balkan area for Z631 and importantly these are basal at Z631 level, indicating it spread from there. I agree that Romans likely spread some of it as well.
There is 485976 Croat J-Z1048 (Z8429-, Z8425- that used to be at Z8424 level?), I know he was estimated as possible PH1553, that's still high enough on Z631 tree.
What is interesting are also these five Z631 looking haplotypes from Romania, two are from Dolj and 3 from Brasov, which was one of core areas of the Basarabi culture. There were some Glasinac-Mati people apparently who migrated there to Dolj area and there were some influences between Basarabi and Glasinac-Mati culture. As I told you it seems to me especially due to CTS6377* and 3 CTS9320* results from Montana and Dolj (one more eastward Bulgarian 175170 CTS9320* seems certainly related to RU383 Dolj Romanian from this study due to mutliple non-modal matches) one of core Basarabi areas I went to associate CTS9320 with this culture and I think there might be a very strong connection between the two (alongside possibly some other cultures, like Gava etc.). So because of this migration Z631 also seems to me like a good match for Glasinac-Mati culture.
J-M241+
RU321 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 0 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU337 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU338 Bra 12 24 15 10 13-16 11 14 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 9 21
RU350 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 9 13 9 21
RU354 Dol 12 24 15 10 13-17 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 16 19 10 13 9 21
These seem certainly related because of non-modal dys388=14, so some dys388=14 Z631 might their best fit.
Also interesting is PH1602 because as Veliki Vanik find is Y15058+, there is one PH1602 result from Bosnia and one from Serbia (alongside Bulgarian but their TMRCA is only 1250 ybp), so PH1602 might easily also have something to do with Glasinac culture. PH1602 thus far is absent in Albania.

Yes, this Greek is either Z631* or Z1043*, if he doesn't share any Private SNPs with someone else on that phylogeny. (I can confirm he is negative for the other Z631 downstreams).

You're right, there is also the Croatian, kit 485976, who is tested as Z1043+ and Z8425- which is at the same level as Z8424. So it seems another "basal" Z631 in the Western Balkans.

Those 5 haplotypes from Romania certainly appear as Z631+ and also related among each other based on DYS388=14. Hard to say, their ancestor could've also migrated there much later, such as during the Roman Empire or even later as Vlachs.

Indeed, PH1602 hasn't been found among Albanians thus far. This clade's center of diversity is certainly in the Western Balkans as well, though it seems further north in the area of Croatia/Bosnia.

IMO, J-L283 expanded in the Western Balkans during the Middle Bronze Age, or around the timeframe we find this J-L283>Y15058 in Dalmatia. So what's likely to have happened is around that time, generally Z1296 probably went further south (modern Montenegro, North Albania), while Y15058 generally more northern (modern Croatia, Bosnia). This is also supported by the new sample from Mat, Albania, as he should split the J-Y20899 clade, which is a "basal" J-Z1296, around that timeframe or Middle Bronze Age. Also, in a STR study from Apulia, I didn't see any PH1602 looking haplotypes (PH1602 usually has DYS456=12), but I noticed some Z1296 looking ones, particularly Z1296>Y20899, and Z1296>Z1297>Y23094, maybe others. Again, consistent with the idea that Y15058 was more northern, while Z638>Z1296 more southern.

 

[Aspurg]

Yes, this Greek is either Z631* or Z1043*, if he doesn't share any Private SNPs with someone else on that phylogeny. (I can confirm he is negative for the other Z631 downstreams).

You're right, there is also the Croatian, kit 485976, who is tested as Z1043+ and Z8425- which is at the same level as Z8424. So it seems another "basal" Z631 in the Western Balkans.

Those 5 haplotypes from Romania certainly appear as Z631+ and also related among each other based on DYS388=14. Hard to say, their ancestor could've also migrated there much later, such as during the Roman Empire or even later as Vlachs.

Indeed, PH1602 hasn't been found among Albanians thus far. This clade's center of diversity is certainly in the Western Balkans as well, though it seems further north in the area of Croatia/Bosnia.

IMO, J-L283 expanded in the Western Balkans during the Middle Bronze Age, or around the timeframe we find this J-L283>Y15058 in Dalmatia. So what's likely to have happened is around that time, generally Z1296 probably went further south (modern Montenegro, North Albania), while Y15058 generally more northern (modern Croatia, Bosnia). This is also supported by the new sample from Mat, Albania, as he should split the J-Y20899 clade, which is a "basal" J-Z1296, around that timeframe or Middle Bronze Age. Also, in a STR study from Apulia, I didn't see any PH1602 looking haplotypes (PH1602 usually has DYS456=12), but I noticed some Z1296 looking ones, particularly Z1296>Y20899, and Z1296>Z1297>Y23094, maybe others. Again, consistent with the idea that Y15058 was more northern, while Z638>Z1296 more southern.

Yes, Romanians could have arrived later, no way to know without deeper tests, too bad not many Romanians are tested at ftdna..

There are several Serb families from Lika, Croatia and Western Bosnia PH1602 who have St. Luke as patron saint and also related to them one from Herceg Novi, Montenegro, one of these is 16/67 with YF07839 Croat from Western Herzegovina so definitely some diversity there. Considering archaeological evidence it seems Delmatae had very likely PH1602.

I agree with such a migration path, and going after this archaeological culture Nezir III complex in Albania seems to be a likely clue for Z1296's path. Unfortunately I didn't read much about this as most literature is in Albanian so I'm not sure to what Illyrian tribes Albanian archaeologists related this complex to. Yes, this Dinara culture was predominately Middle Bronze Age culture in it's nature (throughout all phases), and in Late Bronze age early Delmatae culture was already identifiable.

There is also something very interesting, there was a study about Croatian island population and for example J2b-M12 was 5/99 on Cres, and impressive 6/68 and 6/42 on Pasman and Ugljan respectively. Unfortunately no haplotypes or SNP's below M12 but surely those must be dominantly L283. Pasman and Ugljan were Liburnian territory, so other than Delmatae one should expect some L283's among them too, although I think Liburni were definitely more mixed than Delmatae.