Reconstruction of Ancient British people

Angela said:
Arya Stark is a character in "The Game of Thrones", an HBO series, played by the English actress Maisie Williams.

12_maisie_williams.jpg


She has that diamond shaped, high cheek boned thing going on too, but as Markod noted, that's probably from a "North Eurasian" source in the case of Europeans.
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Oh this. Yes she is basically Alpine. I also always thaught that Brachycephaly with Broad faces were a North Eurasian physical characteristics. That's what i hate about the people who put craniometrics away as non-relevent, because if we had craniometrics datas ( and i know most of ancient samples we have dna for are not entire bodies ) from let's starting Baltic HG's and Iron_Gates HG's we could already have a little clue from where and when it came here, because i dont believe to the farming diet reducing crania hypothesis. There is a crania related with Schela Cladovei and Mesolithic Iron_Gates who is not broad and i'm not sure about the metrics, but it's definitely not the stereotypical Dolicocephalic HG's or Farmers we usually talk about, it's more leaning to the Borreby stereotype, and it should be interesting to investigate. Also the two Téviec women looks highly brachycephalic for me. So much questions with so few datas.
 
halfalp said:
This is not just how it works. Typical exemple : Obama is a Mulato, but he consider himself as just Black. So if the world cannot call him Black but he can himself, what is the point? You are right by saying its highly subjective and arbitrary, but this is the point of the world and the " diversity ". I decide what i consider a thing, and this thing ( if he cans ) can decide what he consider himself. I decide to consider Halle Berry as Black, whatever % of European she is, or whatever her facial characteristic. It's once again an arbitrary and subjective point, i like to hierarchised world in different boxes, other peoples dont care. This is about personnal subtilities, not about being right or wrong.
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Well, just like I said for Berry I say for Obama: they are part of the same Anglo-american culture and therefore will tend to identify with the concepts and labels that the society they live in is used to. They won't suddenly choose to identify as, say, "pardos", the Brazilian concept of race is alien to them. I am pretty sure that had Obama lived in a place that 1) had a lot of self-declared multiracial people and 2) acknowledged a mestizo/mixed-race identity as a real thing, not trying to fix people into only two major boxes, then he would surely identify as mixed-race, which he is.

As for what you say, I can only reply: whatever, my friend, but it's still a fact that someone like Halle Berry will never be a good proxy for "Negroid woman" in order to compare someone to her and define if that person is Negroid. A heavily mixed, morphologically very Caucasoid-like and probably more European than African person like her is just not "good enough" to be a marker for "Negroidness" in other people. In any case, the comparison of that reconstruction with Negroids, not even Halle Berry, was not very apt.

No matter if anyone names her "black" or not ("black", like "white", is a vastly generic term anyway), some things are quite objective, and one of them is that she is genetically and morphologically too distant from an African person to be lumped together with them as if "they're all the same". Sometimes a bit of specificity is necessary. The caveats of "hierarchising" people (I don't know what you meant, because hierarchy implies superior and inferior levels, but I'm digressing...) in just a few different boxes is that the boxes lose some of their significance as they become just too broad and therefore much less precise. Therefore, we end up unable to know if that "black" person is 100% African (in genetics and looks) or maybe even just 20% African, because curiously in the "white" box only overwhelmingly (90%+) people count.
 
halfalp said:
Oh this. Yes she is basically Alpine. I also always thaught that Brachycephaly with Broad faces were a North Eurasian physical characteristics. That's what i hate about the people who put craniometrics away as non-relevent, because if we had craniometrics datas ( and i know most of ancient samples we have dna for are not entire bodies ) from let's starting Baltic HG's and Iron_Gates HG's we could already have a little clue from where and when it came here, because i dont believe to the farming diet reducing crania hypothesis. There is a crania related with Schela Cladovei and Mesolithic Iron_Gates who is not broad and i'm not sure about the metrics, but it's definitely not the stereotypical Dolicocephalic HG's or Farmers we usually talk about, it's more leaning to the Borreby stereotype, and it should be interesting to investigate. Also the two Téviec women looks highly brachycephalic for me. So much questions with so few datas.
Click to expand...

I don't know... The fact that the typically distinctive "Paleo-American morphology" skulls were recently found to have an extremely close relationship to latter "modern Amerindian" gene pool, and they were not "an earlier and different human wave" as once thought, suggest to me that people do change their skull morphology given enough time, selective pressure, genetic drift and a bit of mixing.
 
Ygorcs said:
Well, just like I said for Berry I say for Obama: they are part of the same Anglo-american culture and therefore will tend to identify with the concepts and labels that the society they live in is used to. They won't suddenly choose to identify as, say, "pardos", the Brazilian concept of race is alien to them. I am pretty sure that had Obama lived in a place that 1) had a lot of self-declared multiracial people and 2) acknowledged a mestizo/mixed-race identity as a real thing, not trying to fix people into only two major boxes, then he would surely identify as mixed-race, which he is.

As for what you say, I can only reply: whatever, my friend, but it's still a fact that someone like Halle Berry will never be a good proxy for "Negroid woman" in order to compare someone to her and define if that person is Negroid. A heavily mixed, morphologically very Caucasoid-like and probably more European than African person like her is just not "good enough" to be a marker for "Negroidness" in other people. In any case, the comparison of that reconstruction with Negroids, not even Halle Berry, was not very apt.

No matter if anyone names her "black" or not ("black", like "white", is a vastly generic term anyway), some things are quite objective, and one of them is that she is genetically and morphologically too distant from an African person to be lumped together with them as if "they're all the same". Sometimes a bit of specificity is necessary. The caveats of "hierarchising" people (I don't know what you meant, because hierarchy implies superior and inferior levels, but I'm digressing...) in just a few different boxes is that the boxes lose some of their significance as they become just too broad and therefore much less precise. Therefore, we end up unable to know if that "black" person is 100% African (in genetics and looks) or maybe even just 20% African, because curiously in the "white" box only overwhelmingly (90%+) people count.
Click to expand...

Here you are talking about Ancestry, wich for most humans doesn't mean anything at all. I can take myself as a good exemple. I'm 100% European, mostly French & German from the 23andme ancestries and my y-dna is R1b-L2 wich means with a certain confidence that my male ancestors are in the northern alps for almost 5'000 years and probably belonged to the Bell Beaker migrations. But for whatever reasons, i look physically very Balkanic, and here in Switzerland, a lot of people from different origins intuitively call me Shqiptär, wich is the ethnic name of Albanians, in summer when i tan i'm even considered Turkish or Afghan... Facts is, for an European, if a guy is half African, half European, he is gonna be considered African, while in Western Africa, an half African, half European, gonna be considered as a Toubab. Humans like to challenge people into the acceptation of them, we dont recognize as our own anybody just because it is good or nice, we are challenging people who look differently, it doesn't mean we dont like them. Halle Berry definitely looks like a 50/50 mix of African and European descent, but she still gonna be considered as Black by others and probably herself too. As for the hierarchy comment, yes i didn't mean it in a superior / inferior way, but in a separatist way.
 
Ygorcs said:
I don't know... The fact that the typically distinctive "Paleo-American morphology" skulls were recently found to have an extremely close relationship to latter "modern Amerindian" gene pool, and they were not "an earlier and different human wave" as once thought, suggest to me that people do change their skull morphology given enough time, selective pressure, genetic drift and a bit of mixing.
Click to expand...

I do believe to morphological changes, i just dont believe to the idea that Brachycephaly in Europe came with Farmers being Reduced or Infantilized by a Farming Diet. The overwhelming Brachycephalic and Infantilized ( wich is even proved by genes like EDAR ) populations in the world are " Asiatic " or Mongoloids and it irradiate everywhere in the periphery, such India, Iran ( middle-east ), Caucasus and obviously Europe. What have Iran, Caucasus and Europe in common about ancestry? ANE. Bell Beakers informs us that it was in continental Europe already in the Chalcolithic Europe.
 
halfalp said:
I do believe to morphological changes, i just dont believe to the idea that Brachycephaly in Europe came with Farmers being Reduced or Infantilized by a Farming Diet. The overwhelming Brachycephalic and Infantilized ( wich is even proved by genes like EDAR ) populations in the world are " Asiatic " or Mongoloids and it irradiate everywhere in the periphery, such India, Iran ( middle-east ), Caucasus and obviously Europe. What have Iran, Caucasus and Europe in common about ancestry? ANE. Bell Beakers informs us that it was in continental Europe already in the Chalcolithic Europe.
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I always noted that some North-europeans have East-Asian-like faces.
Take for example Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven or Greta Thunberg :

Links:
-https://goo.gl/images/h9cpy9
-https://goo.gl/images/7N3Vwi


But how do we know that it came with ANE ? Are there any facial reconstructions of ANE-like people ?
 
Anfänger said:
I always noted that some North-europeans have East-Asian-like faces.
Take for example Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven or Greta Thunberg :

Links:
-https://goo.gl/images/h9cpy9
-https://goo.gl/images/7N3Vwi


But how do we know that it came with ANE ? Are there any facial reconstructions of ANE-like people ?
Click to expand...

The major constituent of ANE (70%) is derived from a population related to Sungir. Here's a nice reconstruction of the latter:

https://vimeo.com/236904436
 
Anfänger said:
I always noted that some North-europeans have East-Asian-like faces.
Take for example Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Löfven or Greta Thunberg :

Links:
-https://goo.gl/images/h9cpy9
-https://goo.gl/images/7N3Vwi


But how do we know that it came with ANE ? Are there any facial reconstructions of ANE-like people ?
Click to expand...

We do not. One of the reason is that we dont have that much Craniometrics datas compared to ancestral components datas for exemple. We do not need facial reconstructions of individuals to know if people are brachycephalic or meso, dolicho. We need intact craniums. The reason to link it with ANE, is because it's the only real ancestral component that links East Asia and West Asia in prehistoric human migrations. All modern people with high % of brachycephalic individuals ( Siberians, Turks-Mongols, East Asians, Southeast Asians, Native Americans, so basically roughly Mongoloids ) are a rumble of East Asian and ANE ancestry with minor other ancestries and the places that we know in western eurasia ANE ancestry irradiated in ( Eastern Europe, Iran, Caucasus ), also shows high levels of brachycephalic individuals and probably irradiated in peripheric areas such as Northern, Central, Western Europe for Eastern Europe. Southeast Europe, Anatolia, Armenia, roughly Middle-East for Caucasus. And roughly Middle-East and India for Iran. There could have been different migrations bringing Brachycephaly in places it wasn't common. Exemple: In Late Paleolithic, ANE individuals could have bring Brachycephaly in Eastern Europe without being fixed in a whole population ( meaning some people were still dolicocephalic and mesocephalic, while others were brachycephalic ). But we also know that Eastern Europe suffered a second wave of ANE ancestry, called WSHG ( western siberian hunter gatherers ) and an ancestry more leaning towards East Asian ancestry labeled Baikal_Neolithic sometimes near the transition between Neolithic and Chalcolithic. So with huge craniometric datas from Mesolithic Eastern Europe ( Ukraine_HG's, Baltic_HG's, Balkans_HG's ) we could already deduce if the physical characteristic came from the 1st or the 2nd ANE wave. But more, Eastern Europe also could had a 3rd ANE/East Asian introgression in the Scythian era, were Scythians were highly mobile in the Western and Central-Eastern Eurasian Plain and could have bring this ancestry in Eastern Europe, and from there the Thraco-Cimmerian migration from the Danubian Plain to Central Europe too. Also the more documented 4th and 5th introgression wich were the Huns ( or early Turkish people in general ) and the Mongols. Plus between the 2nd ( or maybe with the 2nd itself ) and the 3rd introgression, there was a migration of Siberians people that would have bring the Uralic languages at some point wich would also bring ANE/East Asian ancestry to Europe. It makes a lot of East Asian ancestry introgression into Europe right? Now anatomy is not always linked with ancestry movements, but it still can give us a clue.

I think it was James Mallory who said in one of his books that the Dnieper Rapids in Ukraine was in the Mesolithic the warzone between 3 peoples, 1 dolicocephalic and 2 brachycephalic. But i dont know at all if this is backed up by craniometrical facts.
 
markod said:
The major constituent of ANE (70%) is derived from a population related to Sungir. Here's a nice reconstruction of the latter:

https://vimeo.com/236904436
Click to expand...

Yeah, i liked those reconstructions, especially the skin tone, medium dark with reddish cheekbone, like Native Americans. So Kostenki was related with Vestonice, while Sungir was more leaning towards the west eurasian ancestry into Mal'ta than the Vestonice Cluster? How exactly does this works?
 
halfalp said:
Yeah, i liked those reconstructions, especially the skin tone, medium dark with reddish cheekbone, like Native Americans. So Kostenki was related with Vestonice, while Sungir was more leaning towards the west eurasian ancestry into Mal'ta than the Vestonice Cluster? How exactly does this works?
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The skin is almost certainly wrong I believe :grin: Their skin would have looked like those of South Indians maybe.

Genetiker claims that one of them is derived for rs2733831 associated with blondism though.

Vestonice is related to Sungir.
 
markod said:
The skin is almost certainly wrong I believe :grin: Their skin would have looked like those of South Indians maybe.

Genetiker claims that one of them is derived for rs2733831 associated with blondism though.

Vestonice is related to Sungir.
Click to expand...

Whatever the skin tone, but imagine that androgynous boy ( the other one ) with a very dark skin, my guts ( for what its worth ) tells me that it doesn't make sense.

I thought one of the Kostenki individual had some derived for Red Hairs, never heard about the Blondism one.

I know Vestonice is related with Sungir, but how Mal'ta is 70% Sungir and not 70% Sungir-Kostenki? What ancestry makes Sungir a better fit than Kostenki for Mal'ta?
 
halfalp said:
Whatever the skin tone, but imagine that androgynous boy ( the other one ) with a very dark skin, my guts ( for what its worth ) tells me that it doesn't make sense.

I thought one of the Kostenki individual had some derived for Red Hairs, never heard about the Blondism one.

I know Vestonice is related with Sungir, but how Mal'ta is 70% Sungir and not 70% Sungir-Kostenki? What ancestry makes Sungir a better fit than Kostenki for Mal'ta?
Click to expand...

I believe it's Vestonice-Sungir on the one hand, and Kostenki on the other. No idea what differentiates the latter.
 
markod said:
I believe it's Vestonice-Sungir on the one hand, and Kostenki on the other. No idea what differentiates the latter.
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I'm pretty sure that in one paper it was said that Kostenki was part of the Vestonice Cluster of the Gravettians. And that Sungir was put away because some UHG ancestry introgression?
 
halfalp said:
I'm pretty sure that in one paper it was said that Kostenki was part of the Vestonice Cluster of the Gravettians. And that Sungir was put away because some UHG ancestry introgression?
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They're all Vestonice cluster. Kostenki 14 is the weirdo, and Kostenki 12 is closer to Sungir than to Kostenki 14. K14 is closest to the HG from South Italy.

I think the younger Kostenki is a Sungir migrant.
 
davef said:
The Anglo Saxon looks like a pirate. I would immediately cast him as Captain Hook
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This Anglo-Saxon reconstruction seems to me a big mess. Point. He doesn't evocate any mean anglo-saxon type to me, either 'nordic'like or 'nordic+cromagnoid' who was the basis of Anglo-Saxons, whatever the auDNA composition of 'nordic' hich say little about the genesis of this type surely come from North-North-East Europe (6000/5000 BC?)
 
MOESAN said:
This Anglo-Saxon reconstruction seems to me a big mess. Point. He doesn't evocate any mean anglo-saxon type to me, either 'nordic'like or 'nordic+cromagnoid' who was the basis of Anglo-Saxons, whatever the auDNA composition of 'nordic' hich say little about the genesis of this type surely come from North-North-East Europe (6000/5000 BC?)
Click to expand...

Nordicist!
 
halfalp said:
Bell Beakers informs us that it was in continental Europe already in the Chalcolithic Europe.
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate on this point? I don't see how BB informs us that ANE was in continental Europe already in Chalcolithic Europe. By continental Europe you mean...? EHG already had quite a bit of ANE, of course, but it was IIRC negligible in EEF and WHG. Steppe-like (with EHG included) ancestry was found in little proportions in the Chalcolithic Balkans, but would such a little amount of ANE make such a change in most individuals (instead of occasionally appearing in phenotype in outliers)? What population would've brought ANE into the rest of Europe even before the bulk of the steppe-related expansion?
 
Ygorcs said:
Could you elaborate on this point? I don't see how BB informs us that ANE was in continental Europe already in Chalcolithic Europe. By continental Europe you mean...? EHG already had quite a bit of ANE, of course, but it was IIRC negligible in EEF and WHG. Steppe-like (with EHG included) ancestry was found in little proportions in the Chalcolithic Balkans, but would such a little amount of ANE make such a change in most individuals (instead of occasionally appearing in phenotype in outliers)? What population would've brought ANE into the rest of Europe even before the bulk of the steppe-related expansion?
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I meant, BB inform us that Brachycephaly was already in continental europe by the Chalcolithic. About Steppe ancestry, i hate it, because i dont understand it. How exactly do you calculate Steppe ancestry ( with EHG included )? How can Steppe ancestry be without EHG? How do you exactly can separate Steppe ancestry, with additional EHG or CHG?
 
Cpluskx said:
So ANE was partially an East-Asian like population?
Click to expand...

They had 20-30% East Eurasian ancestry related to either Taiwanese Ami or Onge depending on which paper you go by. Sungir was fully West Eurasian.
 
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