Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

[Leka]

The Albanian from Skrapar under Z16988 is positive for three Y133830 SNPs, so he will split that subclade.

 

[Aspurg]

YF63299 should split E-Y133830.

Ah, Caushi? He looked very close to Bjelopavlici, like 5/37? That means Albanian ancestry for them is very likely. Also YF63304 must be Dushmani? Plenty of new additions today. As I explained at poreklo, one Macedonian Albanian had such haplotype as well from the study (YFiler plus).
Also some were speculating on Shoshi being related to Bjelopavlici, as I understood they might have some relation to Leka Dukagjini, and Bjelopavlici claimed descent from Dukagjin.

There is also a new Bulgarian R-Y18959, the first on YFull, although in relation to the Albanians downstream, it is still 4800 years apart.

Very interesting, it does indicate that CTS1450 clades entered Balkan early. You also have one basal CTS1450*. What is interesting to me is their original language. Ancient Greek is quite unlikely, if the proto-Thracian has fundamental relation to R-Z93 it is unlikely too. But I think that field is still wide-open for them in that regard.. Illyrian, maybe..

It is pretty interesting that so many subclades shared by both Albanians and Bulgarians come from either Tarnovo and the Central-Northern region of Bulgaria, or from the part close to the Turkish border. Meanwhile Sofia and it's region, Montana, and generally the western part of Bulgaria have fewer such clades. Those central-northern and south-eastern regions are known to have had Albanian settlements in the last 500 years, but some more in-depth testing is necessary to clarify how old these relationships are.

Indeed in the case of closer connections it will be obvious already in many cases by looking at STR's. Yes I'm aware of some enclaves of Albanians there (for ex. village Arbanasi near Tarnovo).

 

[Aspurg]

The Albanian from Skrapar under Z16988 is positive for three Y133830 SNPs, so he will split that subclade.

Only 3? That means he is not Caushi, but more distant. In such case as Caushi is nearby (if he is of them as he looks) it would make this clade rather firmly entrenched in that area, in any case that Albanian is old in Skrapar region?
Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture looks interesting for some E-V13's also because J-L283 is far less common in Tosks so that means it likely had less connection with Southern Illyrian tribes than it did with the Northern ones (in modern day Albania).

 

[Ownstyler]

Ah, Caushi? He looked very close to Bjelopavlici, like 5/37? That means Albanian ancestry for them is very likely. Also YF63304 must be Dushmani? Plenty of new additions today. As I explained at poreklo, one Macedonian Albanian had such haplotype as well from the study (YFiler plus).
Also some were speculating on Shoshi being related to Bjelopavlici, as I understood they might have some relation to Leka Dukagjini, and Bjelopavlici claimed descent from Dukagjin.

No, it is actually a new test from Skrapar and the haplotype is quite different. The TMRCA with the Montenegrins should be well above 2000 ybp.

Very interesting, it does indicate that CTS1450 clades entered Balkan early. You also have one basal CTS1450*. What is interesting to me is their original language. Ancient Greek is quite unlikely, if the proto-Thracian has fundamental relation to R-Z93 it is unlikely too. But I think that field is still wide-open for them in that regard.. Illyrian, maybe..



Indeed in the case of closer connections it will be obvious already in many cases by looking at STR's. Yes I'm aware of some enclaves of Albanians there (for ex. village Arbanasi near Tarnovo).

I agree on the arrival time, but for such an old clade it is also possible that they spoke some kind language that we don't know today, or a language which later split into several historically attested ones.

It is a bit difficult to determine splits of the last 1000 years in subclades that have expanded quickly, such as R-Z2705 and J-PH1751, that's why I am hoping for some more SNP and NGS tests. The R-Z2705 subclade will practically double by the end of the year, since there are plenty new tests coming from different countries. Maybe that will clarify things a little bit.

 

[Trojet]

Only 3? That means he is not Caushi, but more distant. In such case as Caushi is nearby (if he is of them as he looks) it would make this clade rather firmly entrenched in that area, in any case that Albanian is old in Skrapar region?
Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture looks interesting for some E-V13's also because J-L283 is far less common in Tosks so that means it likely had less connection with Southern Illyrian tribes than it did with the Northern ones (in modern day Albania).

It's the one with GATAH4=12 that we discussed some time ago, and that we thought could be some Z17107. As stated, he is positive for three SNPs at YFull's E-Y133830 level, where Bjelopavlici are. Also the new French sample defines the same exact split. I guess we'll have to see if this Albanian and the French share any SNPs amongst themselves (unlikely). For Caushi, I'm not sure how he would fit into this without further testing.

On FTDNA there is further splits between the Albanian/French samples and the Bjelopavlici cluster. There is a Welsh and a German, and finally a sample from Croatia is closest to Bjelopavlici. So FTDNA's haplotree is ahead in this regard, as not every BigY uploads to YFull.

 

[Aspurg]

It's the one with GATAH4=12 that we discussed some time ago, and that we thought could be some Z17107. As stated, he is positive for three SNPs at YFull's E-Y133830 level. Also the new french sample defines the same exact split. I guess we'll have to see if this Albanian and the French share any SNPs amongst themselves (unlikely).

On FTDNA there is further splits between the Albanian/French samples and the Bjelopavlici cluster. There is a Welsh and a German, and finally a sample from Croatia is closest to Bjelopavlici. So FTDNA's haplotree is ahead in this regard as not every BigY uploads to YFull.

Ah cool, well 497 proves it self once again when it comes to Z16988.. I know that Franch guy, I might be able if I'm lucky to isolate the STR that defines their branch now that we have several early splits..

Yes I see that FTDNA haplotree can be more useful, also regarding E-BY4526 which is not read very well.

For Caushi I'm not sure how he would fit into this without further testing.

I think I have a good idea where he fits. Bjelopavlici and Croatian are 20/111, distinct slow STR shared by the clade dys460=10 thereby confirming it's age here.
Croatian however does not share certain unusual specific Bjelopavlic vlaues: dys439=11, dys456=15. it seems 456 backmutated to 15.

Caushi does not share dys439=11, but he does share dys456=15. I think Caushi must be closer to Bjelopavlic than Croatian. He does have the old 460 value for this cluster, he is SNP confirmed as Z16988+ and the only 460=10 I see is this cluster, plus he does share this back-mutation at dys456. Also his GD is close.

Shoshi I heard has though 439=11, he tested only few STR's no 460? If he has 10 I'd say he too is surely of this clade and he should be closer to Bjelopavlici than Caushi beacuse 439=11 seems like a newer Bjelopavlici mutation.

My proposed tree under E-Z16988>BY4197


BY4197
-->BY34282
YF63299 Albanian Skrapar
YF63111 French


--->BY50887
some German ?
---->BY70508
B1790 Bowen Wales, + another Welsh distant to him.


---->BY155589 dys460=10 etc.
349847 Ivsan Croatia
N47659 Murat Croatia 20/111 with Bjelopavlici
+ my additions
IN14237 Hungary dys460=10 6/67 to Murat
374329 Austrian, Linz dys460=10 3/37 to Murat


------> dys456=15 ? etc.
Caushi, Cameria Albania, dys460=10, dys456=15
-------> 439=11 etc.
YF14278 Bjelopavlic
YF16330 Bjelopavlic
? Shoshi, Gri, Tropoje, 439=11, if 460=10 etc.


You should test Shoshi at least for dys460, does he have 456=15? This would mean Bjelopavlici descend from the South of Albania, and that they might have separated from Shoshi after they migrated to the North, which was probably not that long ago as Caushi seems reasonably close. There is this second Croatian/Hungarian/Austrian cluster that seems more distant, 1500-2000 years range.

From Elsies book
"As one of the main Dukagjin tribes, they may have an original tie to the mediaeval Dukagjini family. Much of their local legendry is, at any rate, connected to the figure of Lekë Dukagjini (1410-81), comrade-in-arms and later rival of Scanderbeg. The forested area of Kodra e Shëngjergjit, which was once regarded as the capital of all of Dukagjin (including Shala, Shoshi, Pulati, Nikaj and Mërturi), is situated in Shoshi territory."

As you know Bjelopavlici claim Dukagjin descent, as far as I know this is their oldest tradition. So they might descend of Leka afterall. Or that Leka was of their cluster. Wouldn't Shoshi like to descend of Leka Dukagjin?
Seriously Bjelopavlici can't descend of Leka Dukagjin because they are already in 1411 a formed tribe, and he was a baby then, but Leka might have been E-BY155589..

 

[Leka]

The ruling Dukagjini family all migrated out after Ottomans overran Shkoder. Bjelopavlici are just with origin from Dukagjin, the region, that's about it. They developed the tradition of hailing from the ruling Dukagjini family much later because it was cool to do so back then among the Montenegrin clans. Same thing with Kuqi, claiming to hail from Gjergj Kastrioti. These clans were already semi formed around that time anyway...


Shoshi did upgrade to 37 and they don't seem like Z16988. They might be Z19851 instead, but hard to say without upgrading them further. Bobi from Dukagjin that Shala displaced seem like Z19851 as well.

 

[Dema]

Generally Albanian J-L283 seem well ..un-Daco-Karpian. Well I'm a Daco-Karpian myself (or eventually Cimmerian of again Daco-Karpian like roots.) so I'm looking into possible connections there. Generally there aren't many.. I know of only 2 Albanian clusters with something that resembles an Early Medieval connection with Thracian areas. One of these might have a shot at being still Illyrian depending on the whole picture..


You are correct in IA Illyrians expanded eastwards. And yes this is when they might have picked up some V13 clades. I suspect J-L283 clades were prominent in this expansion (which probably includes a portion of Bulgarian L283's).

In particular we have the Dardani. Archaeologically it has been definitely confirmed that proto-Dardani are derived from Mediana culture, that this culture was not Illyrian but rather proto-Moesian (and as archaeologists said Moesian not proper Thracian). And that these Dardani might in some way be related to Trojan Dardani (that is a very tricky question but archaeological links exist just they arent very best for Mediana culture).

The later Dardanians in history were Illyrian, the kings usually had Illyrian names so there was an Illyrian element but it seems majority were descended from this pre-Illyrian Dardanian substrate. They also had Thracian as well as some names unique to them. So I’d say some E-V13 clades are very Dardanian.


Still recently I went with a thesis that there is likely a connection between Vatin culture and E-Z5018, the Vatin culture (un-Illyrian and proto Daco-Moesian with cremation etc.) had a Western variety in modern day Western Serbia. West-Serbian Vatin is considered to have taken part in Illyrian genesis. I mentioned E-Y145455 which seems diverse in Western Balkan. Whereas some other Z5018 clades are clearly more Eastern. So this a very convenient thing/culture, but other than this there is a range of evidence connecting Vatin and related cultures with E-V13.

CTS9320 seems a bit too young for a Vatin connection. The likely option for CTS9320 is Basarabi or Gava culture.


Things are not sometimes simple either, like simple assimilation, there are some Illyrian Glasinac-Mati graves that were of clear Eastern (Thracian/Thraco-Cimmerian-like) origin yet they seem to have become Illyrian voluntarily.

I think the Southern range of Illyrians, the so-called Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture might have had more E-V13. Also this complex should have connections to West-Serbian Vatin culture.

Look, we are simply having a debate here, i hope you are not feeling attacked by me or anything..
You can declare however you want, we are simply debating more distant origin here.

Lets leave Trojan, Dardanian, Cuman and similar stories for a while, its only confusing you.
You have some strange not realistic desire to split J-L283 from E-v13, especially when regarding Illyrian ethnogenesis.
When actually when observing realistically all facts, there is no doubt that E-v13 is just as Illyrian as J2b-L283.

How are you Dacio Carpathian when you share your cluster with mostly South Albanians and with Albanian Dibri clan? Who your ancestor was? A "Dacio Carpathian" or Illyrian?
How do Cumans, Bulgars or Hungarians fit into this story ? Also when you are calling Dacians a Carpathians you are making it sound like they are Middle Ages Carpathian arrivals like Slavs, Hungarians or Avars, and not Iron Age established population.

It seems very likely my particular clade has a connection with both Cumans and Pechenegs/Berendei. There are many ways to explain this.I'd say the most recent possible option for entering those groups is Pechenegs burning the Kolos fort in 1068. I do have a genetic relative in Cluj (Koloszvar - Kolos fort) and my cousins are not frequent. As I told you members of my cluster are found in very vicinity of Turkic nomadic traces: 1) Kumanica Bijelo Polje, 2) Pecenjevce near Leskovac 3) Karcag Hungary , 4) I might add village Krnja Jela at Pester where a land in 16th century was called Cuman because some other family related to mine might descend from this village.

There is not a single evidence that would point you anywhere near Cumans, Avars or Hungarians.
Romanians are mix of native Balkan population and various Middle Age and later arrivals. Finding one modern match in Romania means nothing, how far is that match btw?
You can find match in China tomorrow, will that mean that entire branch comes from China?

These are not Tukric nomadic traces lol. Your Bijelo Polje and Leskovac matches are classic South Serbian assimilated most likely Albano Illyrians, hence why you get these close matches in South Serbia place known for assimilation of native populations as Albanians. Even if Kumanica ever had anything with original Cumans, you are not their Y-DNA descended, that is at least clear.

Hungary branch as visible on Yfull is very far to you, and Hungarians neither have E-v13 monopoly in variations neither percentage as Albanians do.
As you can see in Yfull these Hungarian branches are most likely small Balkan offshots, which their low distribution and TMRCA suggests.
They, and you, also have multiple brother clades among Albanians suggesting Illyro Albanian origin.

You said like 500 times Albanians have low TMRCA, while in fact they have high TMRCA, way higher then Hungarians do.

These are mix of Cuman and Pecheneg, that indicates a connection dating to 11th century because Pechenegs were defeated by Cumans in 1092, and their remnants survived as part of tribal group Black Hats, alongside some other groups such as Torkil or Berendei. Ofc because immediately next to the village Pecenjece there is Čekmin, that these are mentioned together in 1498, that closest analogy to Čekmin is a Berendei khan Čekman in around 1170, and that nearby there are two villages of Berende connected to them by historians I would say that all these fit very well together.
So if a cluster has connection to both of these then this connection must date to 11th century because afterwards Pechenegs were not a factor, within Cherniye Klobuki group they are mentioned far less than some other groups. There is 100 % an SNP that me and my cousins in the Balkans share, and this SNP is not 100 % shared by NW Dacian haplotypes. That alone indicates we come from there, as does diversity of Z17107* Z38456- in the area etc..

But of notice to me was also occurrence of some Bulgar traces as well,and the Bolgar clan this is in question is actually the only Bulgar clan to have a legitimate connection with Avars.


Recently a Kalmikian study was published and one E haplotype had a very good match with the American who is Z17107+ but Z38456-, as already two such clades exist in the East I need not imply what would mean ifthose Americans too have Eastern origin and I think they likely do because of some other haplotypes in the area. As I said some other Kalmykian E looked similar to my own clade, and that seems very interesting.. Ofc I dont think these are real Kalmykians from Asia but I do think they might be the indigenous people there whom they assimilated. And for 2 of those 3 Z17107* clades I am looking into a viable distant SNP connection with my own clade and I'm working on bringing light to that. If there is any SNP connection of those Z17107 clades to my own then my ancestors knew 500 years ago their ancestry going back to 6th or 7th century.

Why would that indicate you arrive from there? There is also L618+ and v13- on Yfull from Sardinia, does that means that entire L-618 and v13 spread from Sardinia?
Also there is earlier separation J2-L283 clades on Sardinia, does that mean that J2-L283 also spread from Sardinia?

These are just minor branch-offs, they on their own dont prove anything.

The Balkan of Z38456>BY4461 cluster is dominated by Albanians yes. But the oldest basal clades of Z17107 are found in Carpathian region.That includes my own clade, found around Bihar area in Romania/Hungary (with most distant haplotypes), the E-Y81971 which has no closer relatives yet, another Z17107, Z38456- clade in Lavov area of Ukraine, as well another Z17107, Z38456- clade in Russians. The basal diversity determines the place of origin for a clade and all of these are Z38456- to which Balkan cluster is positive as is Swedish clade which is basal Z38456. So the origin point of Z17107 at the very least seems Carpathian area. Another CTS9320 clade showing strong diversity there is BY4526, which also has some distant clade(s) in Sweden. So I think there might be a connection between these clades in their migratory paths. To explore that I'd have to get some insight from the Mid Nordic BA period to see was there some movement to the North from Carpathian area.

Not to say that there aren't modern Serb E-V13 clades of direct Albanian ancestry within 200-600 years. Of course there are. Some FGC11450's fit there, Kuchi per documetary evidence were likely Albanian. Bjelopavlici might have been too. there are some other clades, but my own clade is not one of them.

They are not older clades but just minor branch-offs. There are Z38456- in Ukraine and Russia, that is true. But they are only few isolated samples with still unknown TMRCA.
You are forgetting that not only Albanians have high TMRCA within Z17107, but also they have multiple brother clades of Z17107 which lack at Rusians, Ukrainians, Hungarians or not to mention any Turkic people..

Impossible,my ancestors came from Shop area in late Mediveal times. My clan has very little to do with Montenegrins as an ethnicity. It is "Rascian", that is its home is Lim river area, not historical Montenegro (which is South of Tara river). My clan falls under "Srbljaci" designation. Most E-V13 clades in the area came from the South 200, 300 years ago but not mine. There is clear genetic proof 3 of my own mutations happened in the Shop area, I come from there 100 %, late Medieval times, earlier presence in N. Montenegro looks impossible, there is no diversity there of my clade there whatsoever.

Besides, the Shqiptar is a recent Albanian autonym, derived most likely from the verb shqipoj and shqiptoj. If it was older the Arbanasi of Zadar, Arberesh, or Arvanites would have used it as their autonym wouldn't they? So it is obvious what is the older term here, even in the case of Arbanasi from Zadar who immigrated there 300 years ago. And obviously I can't possibly have anything to do with such a recent term being some 3000 years distant, nor can I with Arbanon/Arben or its varieties either because it likely derives from Illyrian tribe of Albani, with whom I can't have any connection whatsoever going by genetic evidence, because where I come from is the Shop area and before that Northwest Dacia..

Rascia and Shop areas are both very known for Albano-Illyrian and more native population generally with high E-v13, unlike North Serbia.
So either Montenegro or Southern Serbia, are hot spots of more Albanian like genetics (Southeast) rather then Northern or Eastern one.
Lets also not forget Krajina region which also very well fall into these hot spots.

When i said Shqiptar i just ment Albanian, or Albanian remain. Nothing else.

Dont forget that we have plenty of Albanians that are forming their own branches without relatives, so by your theory maybe they are not connected to Albanians also?
You dont always have to have Albanian match to be of Albanian or for that matter Illyrian origin. For example like our E-L241* sample with no relatives and with no fit in any known L241 branch.
Your branch will probably get Albanian match sooner or later, i hope you do realise there is high chance for that. But even if you dont, there is sufficient evidence among Z17107 Albanian members and Z17107 brother clades found among Albanians.

It is bit of a mystery from where E-V13 came from. But recently I saw some autosomal results showing Dalmatian Cardials having small ties to Iberomaurusians.
https://populationgenomics.blog/201...sian-related-gene-flow-into-european-farmers/

I am for long time now thinking about E-v13, it is a bit confusing haplogroup to understand. But best starting point is basing on oldest ancient DNA where as it seems all E-L618 is found exclusively in Neolithic Europe.
Even tho in low percentage, percentage is not important in this case. Therefore without doubt we can conclude that E-L618* entered Europe in Neolithic where later also exclusively European E-v13 developed. Sardinia isolation increased surviving chances of that L618+ and v13- Sardinian sample, hence why you found him there even today in living samples.

Lack of L618* and v13 in N Africa and Middle East proves it developed in Europe. There is one larger ev13 Middle East branch, and few smallers, but they are without doubt CTS5856 Indo-European branch-off.

Neolithic L618* and other brother clades of E-v13 unfortunately died in Bronze Age IE Europe invasion. Or rather later thru various bottlenecks. The ones that survived (except few isolated samples like Sardinian one) are these with 4800 years TMRCA that took part into proto-IE ethnogenesis and spread with them. Out of this genetic basin, Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians, Helens and others developed. E-v13 looks like dominating among Illyrian and Thracians judging by modern samples.

Where E-L618 might stem from is PP Neolithic B, where some E-M78* was found. Any other way is maritime from N.Africa. And when it comes tothe origin of Cardial Ware there is ambiguity on whether its Levant or N. Africa. And for sure it is no accident E-L618 was rare in EEF's but common in Impresso culture. One found in Cardial Spain, one in Dalmatia and one in Sopot culture (which had ties to Dalmatian Cardial). And of course if genetics did not exist I would have known some population different to the bulk of EEF's existed in Dalmatia. Some suggested Mesolithic presence in Europe, currently I'd say not likely..

E-L618 might have been proto-Cardial, Cardials might have spoken an Afro-Asiatic language not Tyrsenian/Rhaetic.

There is plenty of North African and Middle Eastern E1b1b clades, like that V22 Egyptian mummy ancient sample. But as everything looks so far L618 entered Europe pretty early on, enduring bottleneck in Africa and Middle East, also found only in European aDNA, tells a story that E-v13 was also European born and only later one part of it had luck and success to survive and expand. Traced by IE expansion, specifically 4800 years TMRCA part, which would be like 99.99 % of all living E-L618+v13 samples. Pre IE L618*+v13 were probably most similar to modern Basque people which are of pre-IE origin, regarding language.



Regarding your haplogroup i would say nothing if you would be some separated branch, but having high TMRCA albanian cluster as major and largest part of Z17107 and also having brother clades among Albanians raises all the alarms.

Ah, Caushi? He looked very close to Bjelopavlici, like 5/37? That means Albanian ancestry for them is very likely. Also YF63304 must be Dushmani? Plenty of new additions today.

As you see we got our Albanian PH1246 samples with nice variations debunking the story that it dosent exist among Albanians also confirming Southern, Albanian and actually Montenegrin slavicized origin of Vasojevici tribe.
It goes just well along other E-v13 samples found in North Albania and Montenegro in high percentage and high variations rather then in Bosnia where major E-v13 portion is from Serbs or better to say from Albano Vlachs and similar asimilants into Slavic/Serbian ethnos. Majority of Bosnian and Croatian E-v13 among Serbs must be South Serbian or Montenegrin emigrants from 14 century. Which are as it looks are slavicized natives of most likely Illyrian or Albanian origin.

 

[Aspurg]

Look, we are simply having a debate here, i hope you are not feeling attacked by me or anything..
You can declare however you want, we are simply debating more distant origin here.

Hardly a debate, I'm very informed, you are very uninformed and persistant in being wrong.

Lets leave Trojan, Dardanian, Cuman and similar stories for a while, its only confusing you.
You have some strange not realistic desire to split J-L283 from E-v13, especially when regarding Illyrian ethnogenesis.

Genetic facts have already split them. E-V13 seem to be the people who practiced cremation throughout their history. You and some other peoiple here are trying to make E-CTS1273 indigenous to Westbalkans which is against available genetic evidence. Also if E-V13 are indigenous there in Illyrian areas then considering Neolithic evidence of presence there in Western Balkans E-CTS1273 most definitely did not spread with Indo-European groups but was already there..

When actually when observing realistically all facts, there is no doubt that E-v13 is just as Illyrian as J2b-L283.

Just as Illyrian can mean many things, some E-V13 clades who wre proto-Illyrian most definitely are but in the whole picture I believe a very sharp demarcation line will be drawn between the two parallel to Ilylrian-Moesian border.


E-V13 is very common and diverse in Thrace, Greece, Dacia (needs more tested people), J-L283 is not.

How are you Dacio Carpathian when you share your cluster with mostly South Albanians and with Albanian Dibri clan? Who your ancestor was? A "Dacio Carpathian" or Illyrian?

This ancestor of ours lived 3000 ybp. In Carpathians. That makes Dibrri ancestrally having Carpathian origin. I'm not denying in any way they are Illyrian however but neither will anybody deny the Carpathian Z17107's what we are.


U want them to be "local", that means they didn't invade. It's always cooler when your ancestors are invadors isn't it?

How do Cumans, Bulgars or Hungarians fit into this story ? Also when you are calling Dacians a Carpathians you are making it sound like they are Middle Ages Carpathian arrivals like Slavs, Hungarians or Avars, and not Iron Age established population.

They fit perfectly. Cumans and Pechenegs were very active in Dacia. So they could have assimilated people there, also near Bijelo Polje we have Gostun village, nearby Yarmen, Gostun of clan of Ermi, Bulgars expanded to Transylvania. Then Avars, Avars are connected with Ermi for legitimate reasons. Nomadic groups were more easy to assimilate into other nomadic groups.


You see on Caucasus in Karachays I-Y31024 with ties to Ukraine? They look to have arrived from Ukraine, with whom? Cumans. Originally Slavic they were likely assimilated already there.


Dacians were as those Scythian samples show also genetically rather "genetically Balkan", Scy197 (Z5018-, CTS9320-) actually plots between Illyrian and Thracian aDNA samples. But they have been there before Slavs, and ofc you see Ruthenians have 12.5 % of E-V13 in one samples (more in some others), where does that come from? Dacians ofc, and they also have some diversity of CTS9320 clades.

There is not a single evidence that would point you anywhere near Cumans, Avars or Hungarians.

For double-digit IQ t r o l l s, maybe..

Romanians are mix of native Balkan population and various Middle Age and later arrivals. Finding one modern match in Romania means nothing, how far is that match btw?

Yet Romanians aside, who do have people with Medieval connections to the South there are also those Romanians who are indigenous in Dacia, and ofc some such people are found in Hungarians too. If some older clades are found in both then it's a good sign for being old there.

You can find match in China tomorrow, will that mean that entire branch comes from China?

Depends on the context, how ancient is the connection etc. Anything is possible.

These are not Tukric nomadic traces lol. Your Bijelo Polje and Leskovac matches are classic South Serbian

They most definitely are. That the Kumanica monastery derives from Cumans has been postulated by some authors, and by whom else could it possibly be called? My cousin is not from Leskovac, he is from Pecenevce, again an old village named after the Pechenegs. These 2 families in literature are of unknown origin, and they are the most robust family there. They are very likely indigenous. They aren't that close to me but to a Bulgarian.
And the guy from Karcag, ridiculous, Karcag is derived from a Cuman chief whose name was Qarsaq. So I'm a rare group, but every time its Bingo for Turkic traces.


Also why should I worry this hg is not so common there, original proto-Turkic clades are under Q, that doesn't mean various N, R-Z93 clades are not Turkic, if going by that I should speak Egyptian and I do speak a little of Ancient Egyptian.

assimilated most likely Albano Illyrians,

It is various Albanian E-V13's who are assimilated into Illyrians not me.

hence why you get these close matches in South Serbia place known for assimilation of native populations as Albanians. Even if Kumanica ever had anything with original Cumans, you are not their Y-DNA descended, that is at least clear.

They were likely picked up by Cumans and or also possibly by Pechenegs and then a portion by Cumans whereas others remained with Pehenegs (those from Pecenjevce). I know what is the original Cuman hg and it is a clade of R1b-M73.
Bt various people joined Cumans, one of them Shari and they had their own hg etc..


I am the guy whose cousin is in Greater Cumania, and that can't be anyone else other than me for now, because that sample is the sole person tested from the greater Cumania. Cuman-Bulgar Army came to Bijelo Polje in 1253, which family is so old in Bijelo Polje yet has Medival connection to Shop? Mine, any others? No. From where would this army have come from, likely from the Western part of Medieval Bulgaria, where is that? Shop.

Hungary branch as visible on Yfull is very far to you, and Hungarians neither have E-v13 monopoly in variations neither percentage as Albanians do.

Dardanians/Moesians/Dacians seem to have most monopoly on E-V13 right now. In terms of ethnicities, for anything below CTS1273 it's the Bulgarians who have a monopoly, also a new Bulgarian Z19851, they should activete themselves more, after all there is nothing to be afraid of it is already clear Z5017, Z5018 and other clades expanded into Thraco-Moesian areas in the Balkan rather than Illyrian areas. Yet as explained some even early on became Illyrians or even proto-Illyrians.

As you can see in Yfull these Hungarian branches are most likely small Balkan offshots,

Then we'd find their SNP matches in the Balkan. We don't.

You said like 500 times Albanians have low TMRCA, while in fact they have high TMRCA, way higher then Hungarians do.

Dibrri descend of us Carpathian Z17107 not the other way around. And Albanians are far better tested than others, that is pretty much it, you will not have any basal diversity of Z17107.

Why would that indicate you arrive from there? There is also L618+ and v13- on Yfull from Sardinia, does that means that entire L-618 and v13 spread from Sardinia?

Well not, but this L618 needs to be looked at. Sardinia is just a very well tested place.

Also there is earlier separation J2-L283 clades on Sardinia, does that mean that J2-L283 also spread from Sardinia?

Well I already talked about it, per ADNA it seems L283 got there later in Nuragic times but still for some reason they have the older clades there, yes that was initially what I thought, and so have others. Also for R-PF7562 currently it seems as if spread from Asia Minor not from the Balkans though archaeological evidence points otherwise. That's why I suggest testing this ALbanian with 2385=12-13, but I can't guarantee he will be some more basal clade. But these are exception to the rule. The rule is that basal diversity of older clades does determine the origin, and if it doesn't appear that way there must be some good explanation for that.

They are not older clades but just minor branch-offs. There are Z38456- in Ukraine and Russia, that is true. But they are only few isolated samples with still unknown TMRCA.

They cannot be minor branch offs because they are not Z38456, or BY4461, if they were people like Lakic you might have a case. But Ukrainian and Russian Z38456 are not so likely to even share a single SNP under Z17107 (bar maybe Y30991), the TMRCA of Russian and Ukrainian clade is much higher than Balkan BY4461 (1800 ybp), 1000+ years higher and this is a fact already before their analysis. They are 19/67. How stupid you have to be not to comprehend that.

You are forgetting that not only Albanians have high TMRCA within Z17107, but also they have multiple brother clades of Z17107 which lack at Rusians, Ukrainians, Hungarians or not to mention any Turkic people..

LOL Dibbri have multiple brother clades amongst themselves and Lakic, that is within 1800 ybp. Dibrri distant brothers:
1. E-Y81971, Z38456- NE Hungary
2. E-A24048, Z38456- Balkan likely Cuman/Berendei bottleneck plus more distant cousins in Karcag, Cluj (relatively close to E-Y81971)
3. E-Z17107*, Z38456-, Dobromil SW of Lavov. He has a cousin in Lavov study 4/17 but certainly related, TMRCA likely over 1000 ybp. One Uzbek fits in there, SNP confirmed as E-M78 in the study, they tested no V13 )or anything else under M78) but no other M78 or even M35 clade shares those unique values, he's 95 %+ with them.
4. E-Z17107*, Z38456-, one Russian, and another Russian 21/111 with him (so likely a TRMCA simialr to Albanian Dibrri or greater)
5. E-Z17107*, Z38456-, Americans, these are likely IMO to hail from Russia/East too looking at some haplotypes.


Last two clades have an old value of dys439=13 as does my clade, that does objectively indicate we share something, if this was a slow STR I would categorically impose that connection even without SNP tests (like they started at YFull a good thing). All I want is a single SNP, and then it's going to be quite clear what my origin is. Good luck to me. Even without them I can "function".


6. E-Z38456>BY4461 many with a TMRCA of 1800 ybp (wont go past 2000), and mostly in the Balkans, what happens here doesn't have any bearing on these clades above. And ofc all Albanian Z17107 came from North of Danube at some point. IE? That makes them Illyrian.

Rascia and Shop areas are both very known for Albano-Illyrian and more native population generally with high E-v13, unlike North Serbia.

Rascia is, Shop most definitely is not. It is an ultra Triballian area, and Illyrian presence there is late.

When i said Shqiptar i just ment Albanian, or Albanian remain. Nothing else.


Dont forget that we have plenty of Albanians that are forming their own branches without relatives, so by your theory maybe they are not connected to Albanians also?

Who knows, you might get your wish of me having an "Albanian connection". I would love to establish such a "link". If you think I'm contradicting myself I don't..

You dont always have to have Albanian match to be of Albanian or for that matter Illyrian origin. For example like our E-L241* sample with no relatives and with no fit in any known L241 branch.

E-L241 is interesting and I think it does have an Illyrian connection, but L241 is L241.. L241 has some diversity in Western Balkans, it is young and numerous so yes I have been trying to fit it far more into Illyrian groups, and into Dorians possibly.

Your branch will probably get Albanian match sooner or later, i hope you do realise there is high chance for that.

Very unlikely, my branch has multiple older off-modals, and so many Albanians have been tested including studies, I've never seen it. Yet I'd like to have closer Albanian cousins if they hail from certain Komani area.

I am for long time now thinking about E-v13, it is a bit confusing haplogroup to understand.

We're both thinking about it yet and I understand and you don't. Maybe you need leave the thinking part to me and others who are up for the task.:cool-v:

But best starting point is basing on oldest ancient DNA where as it seems all E-L618 is found exclusively in Neolithic Europe.

Per Ancient DNA correct. But there are some L618 at FTDNA, an Algerian, so their relationship with the others needs to be looked at.

Even tho in low percentage, percentage is not important in this case. Therefore without doubt we can conclude that E-L618* entered Europe in Neolithic where later also exclusively European E-v13 developed. Sardinia isolation increased surviving chances of that L618+ and v13- Sardinian sample, hence why you found him there even today in living samples.


Lack of L618* and v13 in N Africa and Middle East proves it developed in Europe. There is one larger ev13 Middle East branch, and few smallers, but they are without doubt CTS5856 Indo-European branch-off.

I agree that V13 mutation occured in Europe, for L618 I wouldn't bet on that right now.

As you see we got our Albanian PH1246 samples with nice variations debunking the story that it dosent exist among Albanians also confirming Southern, Albanian and actually Montenegrin slavicized origin of Vasojevici tribe.
It goes just well along other E-v13 samples found in North Albania and Montenegro in high percentage and high variations rather then in Bosnia where major E-v13 portion is from Serbs or better to say from Albano Vlachs and similar asimilants into Slavic/Serbian ethnos. Majority of Bosnian and Croatian E-v13 among Serbs must be South Serbian or Montenegrin emigrants from 14 century. Which are as it looks are slavicized natives of most likely Illyrian or Albanian origin.

I never said PH1246 won't be found in Albanians, and it is good that it can be found, but knowing studies already I knew it won't be common. PH1246 fits very well into Cetina culture. Yes I would say Vasojevici are local Illyrians most likely, as are Rajovici who are a separate distant branch. There is another clan which is a good candidate for PH1246 or even maybe 2 but the must do SNP tests. They might be remntants of Cetina culture who were assimialted into various populations, and they contributed something as well along the way.

Pre IE L618*+v13 were probably most similar to modern Basque people which are of pre-IE origin, regarding language.

No, I think E-V13 might have actually spoken Afro-Asiatic language when coming into contact with IE's. It might sound incredible but if others knew what I know, many would agree with me I'm sure.
And Cardial Dalmatian people did have slight Iberomaurusian or Natufian inclination. And some earlier Greek Neolithic with Impressed ware had actually more of it.


I don't mind N.African connection at all, why would I, after all civilisations there spoke an E1b1b language not the other way around. And E1b1b has a very long history of being a succesfull hg, moving around so many times. Also in Europe. In Neolithic it was rare, yet it is more common today than any other G2a clade including those who were picked up by IE groups..


Hey Dema enough about me, why don't you enlighten everybody about the fundamental role your clade played in Albanian ethnogenesis? Maybe you can explore some other options. I know one Bulgarian of your clade also mentioned the Pechenegs as possible ancestors, maybe we can explore together the Pecheneg options for you. Nebojsa found one Balkar who had 392=12 from a study but he actually looked more likely to be J-Z1825, he is SNP confirmed as M241-, but J2b+. Yet on dys460 and dys390 he looked closer to J-Z1825. He lacked dys437.


Also Dema when you talk about genetics and ancient cultures, all you have is some vague necessity to tie yourself to "ancient peoples" like a whim of a small child, but you know nothing of these peoples, and hence anything you say is irrelevant. Who doesn't know archaeology can't talk about Iron Age, Bronze Age.. But you can learn..

PS. I saw on Foleja, before Leki deleted your posts that you said "I agree with 80 % of what Olsi says". I'm a person with some intuitive abilities, and no wonder in other topic I posted Olsi's video, I sensed you might like him.
So maybe you can post your favorite video of Olsi Jazexhi?

 

[Nik]

What an eyesore to see this Dema pretending to defend the Illyro-Albanian cause when he's the first one to detest it despite his Albanian admixture.

 

[Aspurg]

What an eyesore to see this Dema pretending to defend the Illyro-Albanian cause when he's the first one to detest it despite his Albanian admixture.

The problem is being wrong, you know that you're wrong and you still persist in claiming the same wrong thing in order to appear as steadfast before others so that you remain "correct". I've seen this behavior often in Balkan peoples. If my relatives North of Danube had my haplotype and I had theirs, i would have said my clade descended from Montenegro but that's not the case. Overall of all 7 haplotypes I've seen from the Western Balkans in my clade every single one had what clearly looks a recent mutation on 385a. Of all 5 Shop haplotypes I've seen they all lacked it having the older value modal for V13. All balkan people share though another clearly off-modal value at 385b, which people North of Danube lack, they have what certainly are older values. Plus clear proof of two more mutations happening in Shop area. So these 3 blocks in my clade are well defined by STR's and geographically. It does not matter if my cluster made up 20 % of all population in Montenegro it would still have a Medieval ancestry from the Shop. But my cluster is not so common.

Making some "ultra-Balkan" case for Z17107 is hopeless with 4 or 5 basal clades negative to Z38456 present in Carpathian region/Steppe and with proportionally these people being less tested, what is going to be a picture when all of these eventually appear? BY4461 under Z38456 is very much Balkan though but that's it. Z17107 is a very good clade of V13 to make connections I made.. For most that is not possible.

Dema started t r o l l i n when he saw Derite quoting my analysis of Greek haplotypes, so he was angry that Albanians were "praising" me.. Shouldn't then he try to claim my clade was non-Albanian? Logically yes, but the point was to t r o l l as if me having Albanian ancestry would "hit" me. It wouldn't in any way. I like often ethnic folklore music and I must have listened to this 50 times since 2015 or so..:cool-v:

In fact I bet some of my clansmen would prefer Albanian to Cuman, and I would still say the same thing to them..


Btw the new Bulgarian Z19851 YF63309 has dys390=24 (not 25 like almost all members of that cluster) so let's see if he defines a split from other 390=25 Z19851.

 

[Dema]

.......

4800 years TMRCA v13 for sure spread with IE and that includes CTS5856.
You said so many things here, it would take me anther hour to reply to most of these things. I dont agree with many of them and i have strong arguments but what i dont have now is time to talk about them.
However i appreciate your imagination or on Serbian what would be said: bujna mašta.
I bet many of these stories sound interesting and incredible to your friends. They are even interesting to me, but i cant say that i believe into them or that you have enough arguments on your side. Trust me if you would have arguments or proofs i would have no problem with it. Like i care what is your origin lol. Think about it.

I will probably reply to them if i get bored but i agree, enough about you, i dont want you to get uncomfortable.

Hey Dema enough about me, why don't you enlighten everybody about the fundamental role your clade played in Albanian ethnogenesis?

Most of the people here already know a lot about me. Poreklo extremists were cutting their veins to prove im a Serb, they were pretty loud before but later as things developed everything turned to my side. Now you can barely hear them. I never doubted myself and even i was showed Uresevic scrubbing before i tested i still tested and made my result public since beginning. Trust me, so many Albanians refused test out of insecurity, you at least have to give me some credit for testing and entering public project even tho Leki showed me Urosevic book before i tested. I never doubted myself.

My clade Y22059 has high pedigre of old layer Montenegrin tribes, 12 century Kriçi tribe that everyone recorded as natives.
Being from old layer of tribes and being native to Montenegro they were most likely part of Illyrian ethnogesis.
I hope you do understand that modern Albanian clades represent only a fraction of once Illyrian clades.

I am not all crazy to claim this clade as Illyrian but giving all the evidence it has high chance for that. Naturally, M205 spread in distant time originally being Semitic but this specific clade has a chance to be Illyrianized thru Mediterranean Sea travelers like Phoenicians. So its not that it spread originally with IE and was since beginning Illyrian, like for example your clade.

Maybe you can explore some other options. I know one Bulgarian of your clade also mentioned the Pechenegs as possible ancestors, maybe we can explore together the Pecheneg options for you.

I have already explored my haplogroup in details. And i am currently exploring it but i dont have time atm because i am also working and travelling.
Currently i am working on all Phoenician researches and trying to make something out of them, also i will be pretty critic over some researches and scientists writing stupidizz who seem pretty biased and unfair towards M205.

There is one Bulgarian i remember with interesting markers that falls into our Kriçi clade but he never upgraded to 111 or did bigY.
M205 has no ties to Pechengs. Neither to Bulgars or Turkic people. M205 in general is one of the most unslavic haplogroups out there.
No matter E-v13, J2-L283, R1b or I2a-CTS10228 and R1a, they are all more Slavic and are found more among Slavs in multiple subclades then J2-M205 which i already said is one of probably most unslavic haplogroups that exist.

Nebojsa found one Balkar who had 392=12 from a study but he actually looked more likely to be J-Z1825, he is SNP confirmed as M241-, but J2b+. Yet on dys460 and dys390 he looked closer to J-Z1825. He lacked dys437.

Nebojsha was into this when i didnt understand many things but then later i understood that he also does not understand many things, as once when he didnt understand simple phylogeny when looking at Yfull tree. Nebojsha is evil M205, he also lied about me and made propaganda stories trying to represent me as Serb, when in fact he is not Serb himself. But rather assimilated native Montenegrin and we all know what that is.

BTW this what you say sounds 100 % like J2-Z1825, what are his markers?

..Also Dema when you talk about genetics and ancient cultures, all you have is some vague necessity to tie yourself to "ancient peoples" like a whim of a small child, but you know nothing of these peoples, and hence anything you say is irrelevant. Who doesn't know archaeology can't talk about Iron Age, Bronze Age.. But you can learn..

lol who says i have a need to tie myself to some ancient people, a guy that roleplayed probably over 5 ancient people only in these last few weeks how long i know him. You were Avar, Cuman, Dacian, Thracian, Hungar, Carpathian, Pecheneg, what else lol?

I am not like you to throw theories out of a blue sky but rather i have very strong evidence to backup them.

PS. I saw on Foleja, before Leki deleted your posts that

I am glad you are reading Foleja, perhaps you will learn a word or two on Albanian language, it would not hurt you to learn a language that your ancestors spoken : D

you said "I agree with 80 % of what Olsi says".

Yes this is true, i agree with 80 % of what Osli says. But this mostly goes to the things you never heard him talk about.
He speaks about communism, socialism, and corrupted government also about politics and how people live in lie. About lies that are told to people while they are hungry without perspective living some fairy tale dream. He compares communism with trash, and i absolutely agree with him. He has very good information on many things that are going on in Albania and i can 100 % assure you that he is genuine. I even have proves for that because he said some things that only a smart not corrupted person would be able to say. Something regarding economy but there i realized that he is thinking on his own and that he has no bad intentions.

I would probably have very hard debate with him where ultimately i would win in arguments but as i said, on the other hand i agree with him on many things and issues.

I'm a person with some intuitive abilities, and no wonder in other topic I posted Olsi's video, I sensed you might like him.
So maybe you can post your favorite video of Olsi Jazexhi?

I am contrast to OSli, i am very nationalistic based while he is obvious anti-nationalist. But that does not stop me to criticise Albanians.

I heard and seen Osli video about 2 weeks before you posted it. I really disliked him when i heard him talking first time. He fails so many things, especially when talking about nationality and language. But he is partially right, we cant pretend like Albanians are same Illyrians that lived 2500 years ago.

My favorite Osli video does not have English/Serbian translate so i doubt you would understand it.
These are internal issues and i should not debate this with outsider, unless you accept your Albanian origin.

But unlike many i am not some retard living in dreams chasing my Illyrian or Phoenician origin, i am very realistic and grounded person in real life.
I understand that we as a nation have way more important things and goals then to live in shadow of some ancient people.

Here on internet everyone can write whatever they want, but in real life things are not as people are trying to represent them on internet.

 

[Aspurg]

Myclade Y22059 has high pedigre of old layer Montenegrin tribes, 12 century Kriçi tribe that everyone recorded as natives.
Being from old layer of tribes and being native to Montenegro they were most likely part of Illyrian ethnogesis.
Ihope you do understand that modern Albanian clades represent only afraction of once Illyrian clades.

I am not all crazy to claim this clade as Illyrian but giving all theevidence it has high chance for that. Naturally, M205 spread indistant time originally being Semitic but this specific clade has achance to be Illyrianized thru Mediterranean Sea travelers like Phoenicians. So its not that it spread originally with IE and wassince beginning Illyrian, like for example your clade.

It is possible to connect your cluster with Illyrians if it’s not a recent arrival, and there is no hard evidence to suggest it is. Krici were a known tribe.

Thereis one Bulgarian i remember with interesting markers that falls intoour Kriçi clade but he never upgraded to 111 or did bigY.
M205has no ties to Pechengs. Neither to Bulgars or Turkic people. M205 ingeneral is one of the most unslavic haplogroups out there.
Nomatter E-v13, J2-L283, R1b or I2a-CTS10228 and R1a, they are all more Slavic and are found more among Slavs in multiple subclades thenJ2-M205 which i already said is one of probably most un slavichaplogroups that exist.

I agree for your clade Pechenegs are not likely.

Nebojsha was into this when i didnt understand many things but then later iunderstood that he also does not understand many things, as once whenhe didnt understand simple phylogeny when looking at Yfull tree.Nebojsha is evil M205, he also lied about me and made propagandastories trying to represent me as Serb, when in fact he is not Serb himself. But rather assimilated native Montenegrin and we all knowwhat that is.

Talk to him then, you have so many cousins among Serbs, I won't be your mediator. I can give you credit for testing, I know Urosevic wrote your family were "Arnautasi". But thus far you don't have closer relatives among Serbs.

BTWthis what you say sounds 100 % like J2-Z1825, what are hismarkers?

Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe


DYS19 YCAIIa YCAIIb DYS388 DYS 389I1 DYS 389II1 DYS 390 DYS 391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS460


Caucasus Balkarian J-M12/M102* 15 20 19 15 12 28 24 10 12 12 10




You see his 390=24 is unusual in your cluster (23). Also he has460=10. Unusual in your cluster (11).



This Hungarian has 392=12, also 390=24 and in this clade 460=10 iscommon. Modal for J-Z2453
E013/2016Viss J2b-M12 12 24 15 10 14/17 13 12 12 28 17 15 19 11 15 16 22 9 23 13 11 22 9

lol who says i have a need to tie myself to some ancient people, a guy that roleplayed probably over 5 ancient people only in these last few weeks how long i know him. You were Avar, Cuman, Dacian, Thracian, Hungar, Carpathian, Pecheneg, what else lol?

I never claimed Thracian. Carpathians are a mountain range/region. I do not satisfy myself with just one period.. I explore them all.

Iam glad you are reading Foleja, perhaps you will learn a word or two on Albanian language, it would not hurt you to learn a language thatyour ancestors spoken : D

I can read basic Albanian. Unlike most people if I wanted to learn Albanian I’d be fluent in few months at most, I do speak Turkish though, and I knew it before I was into this, so you see why I embrace my ancestry so much.

Depends from where Albanian stems, if Dacian was similar to Albanian but I have doubts about that.

Yesthis is true, i agree with 80 % of what Osli says. But this mostlygoes to the things you never heard him talk about.
Hespeaks about communism, socialism, and corrupted government alsoabout politics and how people live in lie. About lies that are toldto people while they are hungry without perspective living some fairytale dream. He compares communism with trash, and i absolutely agreewith him. He has very good information on many things that are goingon in Albania and i can 100 % assure you that he is genuine. I evenhave proves for that because he said some things that only a smartnot corrupted person would be able to say. Something regardingeconomy but there i realized that he is thinking on his own and thathe has no bad intentions.

I would probably have very hard debate with him where ultimately iwould win in arguments but as i said, on the other hand i agree withhim on many things and issues.

I never said I agreed or disagreed with him. He has some knowledge about some things and his views..

I heard and seen Osli video about 2 weeks before you posted it. I really disliked him when i heard him talking first time. He fails somany things, especially when talking about nationality and language.But he is partially right, we cant pretend like Albanians are sameIllyrians that lived 2500 years ago.

My favorite Osli video does not have English/Serbian translate so i doubt you would understand it.
These are internal issues and i should not debate this with outsider,unless you accept your Albanian origin.

But unlike many i am not some retard living in dreams chasing my Illyrian or Phoenician origin, i am very realistic and grounded person in real life.
I understand that we as a nation have way more important things and goals then to live in shadow of some ancient people.

Hereon internet everyone can write whatever they want, but in real life things are not as people are trying to represent them on internet.

Olsi speaks about some everyday issues, but for my taste he seems populist. I don't believe so much in populism..

The only kind of Albanian I might be is a Steppe Albanian, that is why I have this nickname..:cool-v:

 

[Bachus]

Of course R1a/R1b brought the language but you are forgetting some important Z2103 clades which have confirmed old presence in Thracian areas.
One of these is R-Y5587 with looks entrenched there 4300 ybp.
That R-Z93 guy is very interesting in many ways. Autosomally he was closer to Pamiri people or N.Caucasians than to modern Greeks or Albanians.. Some have tied the Dacian/Thracian languages with Baltic languages, he might be carrier of proto-Thracian language but in such a case R-Y5587 might not have been that. Also I think R-BY250 is more Balkan than it seems currently.
I referred to numerical diversity of E-V13 clades in Daco-Thracian areas. Of R-Z93 clades, you are correct Albanians have none like Serbs but Bulgarians have 5 Z93 clades atm. Of those 3 are Bulgar/Cuman, 1 looks local (might be connected to that find) and for 1 I’m not sure 100 %, more likely not local

Thracian/proto-Thracian R1a-Z93 sample from Bulgaria is the closest to Swedes. Approximation of modern populations is 3/4 Nothern Swede and 1/4 Caucasian alike.

Eurogenes K15

Admix Result (sorted):

#Population percent
1 North_Sea 35.32
2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
3 Baltic 13.65
4 Atlantic 13.45
5 West_Asian 12.95
6 South_Asian 3.15
7 Amerindian 2.05

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source) Distance:
1 North_Swedish 13.52
2 Swedish 15.34
3 Finnish 15.54
4 Southwest_Finnish 15.82
5 Norwegian 15.93
6 East_German 17.21
7 North_German 17.24
8 West_Norwegian 17.25
9 Danish 17.71
10 Hungarian 17.94
11 East_Finnish 18.02
12 North_Dutch 18.06
13 West_German 18.34
14 South_Polish 19.7
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.72
16 Ukrainian 19.84
17 Estonian 20.15
18 Orcadian 20.35
19 West_Scottish 20.42
20 South_Dutch 20.48

Mixed Population Mode Sharing:

#Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source)
1 75.5% North_Swedish +24.5% Tabassaran @ 7.58
2 77.6% North_Swedish + 22.4% Lezgin @ 8.67
3 79% North_Swedish + 21% Chechen @ 8.67
4 73.4% Swedish + 26.6% Tabassaran @ 9.11
5 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Adygei @ 9.45
6 82.1% North_Swedish + 17.9% Ossetian @ 9.52
7 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Tabassaran @ 9.53
8 80.9% North_Swedish + 19.1 Kabardin @ 9.57
9 80.3% North_Swedish + 19.7% Afghan_Pashtun @ 9.58
10 82.5% North_Swedish + 17.5% Kalash @ 9.59

This Thracian ploting much more northern than your "Nordic Aryan" Bosniaks from central Bosnia, my dear Cuman wannabe friend.

 

[Dema]

What an eyesore to see this Dema pretending to defend the Illyro-Albanian cause when he's the first one to detest it despite his Albanian admixture.

Mashallah !


I have always defended Illyrian link to Albanians, simply because there was enough evidence, i have read basic Illyrian books like Aleksandar Stipcevic unlike you illiterate (even tho book was translated to Albanian and English language), also i was always into our ethnic issues. I was Albanian when it was hardest, you are post-war new age Albanian. Now everyone can be Albanian. I compare you to LGBT organisations. You are Barcelona fan thats right. Ti edhe ne goje ja merr spanjollve, more zhugan.

In compare to me you are like these Gabels driving motokultivators around Shkoder that beg for money. I even seen their horses shit all over the streets.
Why dont you pickup horse shit after your horse or donkey or whatever it is shits on car road?

Your haplo is being debated here, its said you lived in Carpathian basin 3000 years ago and that you have link with Avars.
Too bad that you are too low to actually involve into conversation or say anything about what we are debating here.

 

[Aspurg]

Thracian/proto-Thracian R1a-Z93 sample from Bulgaria is the closest to Swedes. Approximation of modern populations is 3/4 Nothern Swede and 1/4 Caucasian alike.

Andhe has nothing to do with Slavs genetically, because Slavs never had that extra N. Caucasian/S. Central Asian admixture which made Z93's distinct from their distant cousins who lacked it and they also failed to do anything noticeable after expanding with CW until the period of Slavic expansion..
That's why he plots closer to Swedes as Swedes have more of some PIE admix than modern E-Slavs/W.Slavs. Besides whether he is proto-Thracian is debatable, he can be yet his archaeological burial is not well researched, he might be also some proto-Mycenean. Generally he seems very steppe Iranic,so genetically he should have spoken that language at that time. But this sample needs to be more analysed. One Bulgarian clade is a good candidate to be related with that find..

This Thracian ploting much more northern than your "Nordic Aryan"Bosniaks from central Bosnia,

Naturally as he lacks any ties to SE Europe.

Unfortunately for you Bosniaks from Central Bosnia seem to plot on avg. more "Northern" than any Serbs, and also they are to a significant degree direct descendants of Medieval Bosnjani, whereas Bosnian Serbs have perhaps 1-2 % of such ancestry.

my dear Cuman wannabe friend.

If I were wannabe I would not have had Y-DNA cousins where I have them, in Greater Cumania and not have them elsewhere in Hungary. Many might be Cuman wannabes because horse-riding is better than what ancestors of most people were doing 600+ years ago..

You always had a big problem with E-V13 eh Bachus? That's good as is seeing you teaming up with your friend Dema.

 

[Bachus]

Andhe has nothing to do with Slavs genetically, because Slavs never had that extra N. Caucasian/S. Central Asian admixture which made Z93's distinct from their distant cousins who lacked it and they also failed to do anything noticeable after expanding with CW until the period of Slavic expansion..
That's why he plots closer to Swedes as Swedes have more of some PIE admix than modern E-Slavs/W.Slavs. Besides whether he is proto-Thracian is debatable, he can be yet his archaeological burial is not well researched, he might be also some proto-Mycenean. Generally he seems very steppe Iranic,so genetically he should have spoken that language at that time. But this sample needs to be more analysed. One Bulgarian clade is a good candidate to be related with that find..



Naturally as he lacks any ties to SE Europe.

Unfortunately for you Bosniaks from Central Bosnia seem to plot on avg. more "Northern" than any Serbs, and also they are to a significant degree direct descendants of Medieval Bosnjani, whereas Bosnian Serbs have perhaps 1-2 % of such ancestry.



If I were wannabe I would not have had Y-DNA cousins where I have them, in Greater Cumania and not have them elsewhere in Hungary. Many might be Cuman wannabes because horse-riding is better than what ancestors of most people were doing 600+ years ago..

You always had a big problem with E-V13 eh Bachus? That's good as is seeing you teaming up with your friend Dema.

One Serb from Banija ploting more northern than Muslim woman from Central Bosnia who results you posted on Poreklo. Banija Serb has 62% Baltic+North_Atlantic and Muslim woman about 60% on K13 Eurogenes (the best calculator). Deal with it!

K13 of Banija Serb (he is I2-PH908)

1 Baltic 33.25
2 North_Atlantic 28.71
3 West_Med 15.85
4 East_Med 12.81
5 West_Asian 6.84
5 Red_Sea 1.71
6 Siberian 0.67
7 Oceanian 0.15

His position on K15 map (SRB).

You know him, his nick on Poreklo is Barbarylion. I have seen K15 of Muslim guy from Central Bosnia and he is singificant more southern than this Serb Barbarylion.
I have question for you! If this Banija Serb is descendant of Herzegovinian vlachs (your claim of origin most of Serbs) why he ploting more northern than your super Slavic Bosniaks from Central Bosnia?

You are not ethnic Serb and your posting on Poreklo are heavy anti-Serbian. You are just Montenegrin-Bosniak mix, with identity crisis because of your Albanian paternal line.
I am not against E-V13, but you are. Your claim of Turkic origin of your paternal line is running from reality!

 

[Dema]

Many might be Cuman wannabes because horse-riding is better than what ancestors of most people were doing 600+ years ago..

Please who wants to be Cuman lol and who is wanna be Cuman, you are the only guy i ever heard saying he is Cuman or Avar and you are obviously Albanian clustered E-v13.

Even E-v13 sample from late Avar period was obvious recruit into Avars as he was European autosomally just as I1 sample and unlike real Avars with Asian admix and Avar Ydna.

You always had a big problem with E-V13 eh Bachus? That's good as is seeing you teaming up with your friend Dema.

Since when is he my friend? he spammed my M205 thread long before you teamed up with Nik and him in also my Albanian tribes thread.
You guys are teaming up like some forum no life kids only because you dislike some forum person that is arguing against your claims. Like for example you and Nik against me, its ridiculous to see South Serb and Albanian teaming against me when they both have same haplogroup and one guy claims they are Cumans and another Illyrians.


look at your 14 years old behavior:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38165-Malisor-and-N-Albanian-clans-and-their-origin


You are Zor from Poreklo, nationalistic Serb that turned out Albanian by Ydna. Thats what few Serbs already told me.

:cool-v:

 

[Aspurg]

OneSerb from Banija ploting more northern than Muslim woman from CentralBosnia who results you posted on Poreklo. Banija Serb has 62%Baltic+North_Atlantic and Muslim woman about 60% on K13 Eurogenes(the best calculator). Deal with it!

K13of Banija Serb (he is I2-PH908)

1Baltic 33.25
2North_Atlantic 28.71
3West_Med 15.85
4East_Med 6.84
5Red_Sea 1.71
6Siberian 0.67
7Oceanian 0.15

Hisposition on K15 map (SRB).

One Serb from Banija ploting more northern than Muslim woman from CentralBosnia who results you posted on Poreklo. Banija Serb has 62%Baltic+North_Atlantic and Muslim woman about 60% on K13 Eurogenes(the best calculator). Deal with it!

K13 of Banija Serb(he is I2-PH908)

1 Baltic

33.25
2North_Atlantic 28.71
3West_Med 15.85
4 East_Med 6.84
5 Red_Sea 1.71
6Siberian 0.67
7 Oceanian 0.15

His position on K15 map(SRB).

You know him, his nick on Poreklo is Barbarylion. I have seen K15 ofMuslim guy from Central Bosnia and he is singificant more southernthan this Serb Barbarylion.

I’m saying on average, ofc many people depart from average in one way or the other. That is your perception that K13 is the best, it is very good though, but I prefer K36 because it has more components for specific comparison. 13 is just not enough for me.

I have question for you! If this Banija Serb is descendant of Herzegovinian vlachs (your claim of origin of most of Serbs) why heploting more northern than your super Slavic Bosniaks from Central Bosnia?

He plots heavily towards the North-West/Germanics. Herzegovina tribes who settled there were in the Vlach status for the most part.But he is one guy and I think you are cherry-picking the most Northern ones!! I’ve seen autosomal results of many Krajina Serbs! Far more than you have..
Also what about the fact that there are some Serbs of Croat (or just indigenous) origin there? I’m not the only one saying that, some others at poreklo have too.

and your posting on Poreklo are heavy anti-Serbian. You are just Montenegrin-Bosniak mix, with identity crisis because of your Albanian paternal line.

My paternal line has nothing to do with the Albanian ethnicity. I’m “Montenegrin” by regional origin, but until 1912 all my paternal ancestors lived in the Ottoman empire, and for almost 250 years until 1697 they were part of the Ottoman system. And my clan are not generally as Montenegrin as most others.
My posting is neutral, but my Bosniak side is well ultra-Bosniak, they received personally some benefits from the sultans Mehmed II Fatih, Suleyman kanuni themselves etc.

I’m friends with everybody. That includes Croats too!

I am not against E-V13, but you are.

You are against V13, and you laid that out clearly many times in many places. Because you claim that this hg were enslaved by real Illyrians and Thracians etc and are fake Illyrians and Thracians etc. If you were right V13 would have had 10 separate clades which separated 7000 years ago in Neolithic times, yet V13 boomed during the period of IE invasions. It is not only you who is anti E-V13 it is many Serbs and even few Albanians it seems.

Oh btw while you might hate so much E-V13 because of its distant N.African connection, but also don't forget that your precious I's where black-skinned Mesolithic WHG's. And E1b1b and R1 languages came to rule the entire broader area alongside with Q "Turkic" ones.:grin:

Your claim of Turkic origin of your paternal line is running fromreality!

E-V13 is very diverse which you haters seem to forget, and as I explained already I dont cluster with Albanians. My clade is far more diverse in Carpathian/Eastern region than it is in the Balkans. Albanian branch is an off-shoot of us.
My cluster is found near Kumanica, in Pecenevce and Qarsaq, and is contender for Serbian Kumanicic family, deal with that! And your clade (Rodici) does not seem to have any connection with proto-Serbs but rather Pannonian Slavs.

Youare not ethnic Serb

My family are Srbljaci, and my ancestor was ktitor of Serbian monastery/church of Nikoljac in first the half of 17^thcentury, and there is proof of connection in 1485 as well.
The monastery in question was built in late 14^th century, with coins of Brankovic being found etc. How many ktitor families you have in Krajina Serbs? Well that’s very hard because hardly any monasteries there date that far back.
So my clan are (even alot) more Serb in late Medieval than Vasojevici, Kuchi or Bjelopavlici or great many of Serbian E-V13. But my clan very likely arrived from the Shop in 1253.

If my clan is not Serb neither is just about any Serb V13, which is actually what you were saying, but I don’t care as having Bolyar Cuman ancestry (nearby we have a village Boljare such villages are only found in Bulgaria), I’m not going to suck up to anyone..

 

[Dema]

T

Dema started t r o l l i n when he saw Derite quoting my analysis of Greek haplotypes, so he was angry that Albanians were "praising" me.. Shouldn't then he try to claim my clade was non-Albanian? Logically yes, but the point was to t r o l l as if me having Albanian ancestry would "hit" me. It wouldn't in any way. I like often ethnic folklore music and I must have listened to this 50 times since 2015 or so..:cool-v:

I was critic over name tagging for most of clades you made in that Greek thread, i said its nice work isolating subclades but these origin hypothesis were unrealistic.
I am sorry if you cant take critic. I know that Albanians liked your post. Most of them dont even understand what you written there. I hate to be a party breaker.


Your haplogroup was debated on Foleja few days before you ever posted clades in Greek thread, so all of this has nothing to do with your post as you are thinking.

Here you can see that i conclude that carriers of this haplogroup are most likely Albanian in origin and that its no wonder that they are Serbs rather then Bosnjaks or Croats, or even Sllovens.
Since they are South Serbia or Montenegrin Albanian assimilates into Serbs.


Look here : http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=15.msg6136#msg6136



It was after Flor posted your clade phylogenetic tree and before you made your Greek Ev13 post: