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YF63299 should split E-Y133830.
There is also a new Bulgarian R-Y18959, the first on YFull, although in relation to the Albanians downstream, it is still 4800 years apart.
It is pretty interesting that so many subclades shared by both Albanians and Bulgarians come from either Tarnovo and the Central-Northern region of Bulgaria, or from the part close to the Turkish border. Meanwhile Sofia and it's region, Montana, and generally the western part of Bulgaria have fewer such clades. Those central-northern and south-eastern regions are known to have had Albanian settlements in the last 500 years, but some more in-depth testing is necessary to clarify how old these relationships are.
The Albanian from Skrapar under Z16988 is positive for three Y133830 SNPs, so he will split that subclade.
Ah, Caushi? He looked very close to Bjelopavlici, like 5/37? That means Albanian ancestry for them is very likely. Also YF63304 must be Dushmani? Plenty of new additions today. As I explained at poreklo, one Macedonian Albanian had such haplotype as well from the study (YFiler plus).
Also some were speculating on Shoshi being related to Bjelopavlici, as I understood they might have some relation to Leka Dukagjini, and Bjelopavlici claimed descent from Dukagjin.
Very interesting, it does indicate that CTS1450 clades entered Balkan early. You also have one basal CTS1450*. What is interesting to me is their original language. Ancient Greek is quite unlikely, if the proto-Thracian has fundamental relation to R-Z93 it is unlikely too. But I think that field is still wide-open for them in that regard.. Illyrian, maybe..
Indeed in the case of closer connections it will be obvious already in many cases by looking at STR's. Yes I'm aware of some enclaves of Albanians there (for ex. village Arbanasi near Tarnovo).
Only 3? That means he is not Caushi, but more distant. In such case as Caushi is nearby (if he is of them as he looks) it would make this clade rather firmly entrenched in that area, in any case that Albanian is old in Skrapar region?
Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture looks interesting for some E-V13's also because J-L283 is far less common in Tosks so that means it likely had less connection with Southern Illyrian tribes than it did with the Northern ones (in modern day Albania).
It's the one with GATAH4=12 that we discussed some time ago, and that we thought could be some Z17107. As stated, he is positive for three SNPs at YFull's E-Y133830 level. Also the new french sample defines the same exact split. I guess we'll have to see if this Albanian and the French share any SNPs amongst themselves (unlikely).
On FTDNA there is further splits between the Albanian/French samples and the Bjelopavlici cluster. There is a Welsh and a German, and finally a sample from Croatia is closest to Bjelopavlici. So FTDNA's haplotree is ahead in this regard as not every BigY uploads to YFull.
For Caushi I'm not sure how he would fit into this without further testing.
Generally Albanian J-L283 seem well ..un-Daco-Karpian. Well I'm a Daco-Karpian myself (or eventually Cimmerian of again Daco-Karpian like roots.) so I'm looking into possible connections there. Generally there aren't many.. I know of only 2 Albanian clusters with something that resembles an Early Medieval connection with Thracian areas. One of these might have a shot at being still Illyrian depending on the whole picture..
You are correct in IA Illyrians expanded eastwards. And yes this is when they might have picked up some V13 clades. I suspect J-L283 clades were prominent in this expansion (which probably includes a portion of Bulgarian L283's).
In particular we have the Dardani. Archaeologically it has been definitely confirmed that proto-Dardani are derived from Mediana culture, that this culture was not Illyrian but rather proto-Moesian (and as archaeologists said Moesian not proper Thracian). And that these Dardani might in some way be related to Trojan Dardani (that is a very tricky question but archaeological links exist just they arent very best for Mediana culture).
The later Dardanians in history were Illyrian, the kings usually had Illyrian names so there was an Illyrian element but it seems majority were descended from this pre-Illyrian Dardanian substrate. They also had Thracian as well as some names unique to them. So I’d say some E-V13 clades are very Dardanian.
Still recently I went with a thesis that there is likely a connection between Vatin culture and E-Z5018, the Vatin culture (un-Illyrian and proto Daco-Moesian with cremation etc.) had a Western variety in modern day Western Serbia. West-Serbian Vatin is considered to have taken part in Illyrian genesis. I mentioned E-Y145455 which seems diverse in Western Balkan. Whereas some other Z5018 clades are clearly more Eastern. So this a very convenient thing/culture, but other than this there is a range of evidence connecting Vatin and related cultures with E-V13.
CTS9320 seems a bit too young for a Vatin connection. The likely option for CTS9320 is Basarabi or Gava culture.
Things are not sometimes simple either, like simple assimilation, there are some Illyrian Glasinac-Mati graves that were of clear Eastern (Thracian/Thraco-Cimmerian-like) origin yet they seem to have become Illyrian voluntarily.
I think the Southern range of Illyrians, the so-called Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture might have had more E-V13. Also this complex should have connections to West-Serbian Vatin culture.
It seems very likely my particular clade has a connection with both Cumans and Pechenegs/Berendei. There are many ways to explain this.I'd say the most recent possible option for entering those groups is Pechenegs burning the Kolos fort in 1068. I do have a genetic relative in Cluj (Koloszvar - Kolos fort) and my cousins are not frequent. As I told you members of my cluster are found in very vicinity of Turkic nomadic traces: 1) Kumanica Bijelo Polje, 2) Pecenjevce near Leskovac 3) Karcag Hungary , 4) I might add village Krnja Jela at Pester where a land in 16th century was called Cuman because some other family related to mine might descend from this village.
These are mix of Cuman and Pecheneg, that indicates a connection dating to 11th century because Pechenegs were defeated by Cumans in 1092, and their remnants survived as part of tribal group Black Hats, alongside some other groups such as Torkil or Berendei. Ofc because immediately next to the village Pecenjece there is Čekmin, that these are mentioned together in 1498, that closest analogy to Čekmin is a Berendei khan Čekman in around 1170, and that nearby there are two villages of Berende connected to them by historians I would say that all these fit very well together.
So if a cluster has connection to both of these then this connection must date to 11th century because afterwards Pechenegs were not a factor, within Cherniye Klobuki group they are mentioned far less than some other groups. There is 100 % an SNP that me and my cousins in the Balkans share, and this SNP is not 100 % shared by NW Dacian haplotypes. That alone indicates we come from there, as does diversity of Z17107* Z38456- in the area etc..
But of notice to me was also occurrence of some Bulgar traces as well,and the Bolgar clan this is in question is actually the only Bulgar clan to have a legitimate connection with Avars.
Recently a Kalmikian study was published and one E haplotype had a very good match with the American who is Z17107+ but Z38456-, as already two such clades exist in the East I need not imply what would mean ifthose Americans too have Eastern origin and I think they likely do because of some other haplotypes in the area. As I said some other Kalmykian E looked similar to my own clade, and that seems very interesting.. Ofc I dont think these are real Kalmykians from Asia but I do think they might be the indigenous people there whom they assimilated. And for 2 of those 3 Z17107* clades I am looking into a viable distant SNP connection with my own clade and I'm working on bringing light to that. If there is any SNP connection of those Z17107 clades to my own then my ancestors knew 500 years ago their ancestry going back to 6th or 7th century.
The Balkan of Z38456>BY4461 cluster is dominated by Albanians yes. But the oldest basal clades of Z17107 are found in Carpathian region.That includes my own clade, found around Bihar area in Romania/Hungary (with most distant haplotypes), the E-Y81971 which has no closer relatives yet, another Z17107, Z38456- clade in Lavov area of Ukraine, as well another Z17107, Z38456- clade in Russians. The basal diversity determines the place of origin for a clade and all of these are Z38456- to which Balkan cluster is positive as is Swedish clade which is basal Z38456. So the origin point of Z17107 at the very least seems Carpathian area. Another CTS9320 clade showing strong diversity there is BY4526, which also has some distant clade(s) in Sweden. So I think there might be a connection between these clades in their migratory paths. To explore that I'd have to get some insight from the Mid Nordic BA period to see was there some movement to the North from Carpathian area.
Not to say that there aren't modern Serb E-V13 clades of direct Albanian ancestry within 200-600 years. Of course there are. Some FGC11450's fit there, Kuchi per documetary evidence were likely Albanian. Bjelopavlici might have been too. there are some other clades, but my own clade is not one of them.
Impossible,my ancestors came from Shop area in late Mediveal times. My clan has very little to do with Montenegrins as an ethnicity. It is "Rascian", that is its home is Lim river area, not historical Montenegro (which is South of Tara river). My clan falls under "Srbljaci" designation. Most E-V13 clades in the area came from the South 200, 300 years ago but not mine. There is clear genetic proof 3 of my own mutations happened in the Shop area, I come from there 100 %, late Medieval times, earlier presence in N. Montenegro looks impossible, there is no diversity there of my clade there whatsoever.
Besides, the Shqiptar is a recent Albanian autonym, derived most likely from the verb shqipoj and shqiptoj. If it was older the Arbanasi of Zadar, Arberesh, or Arvanites would have used it as their autonym wouldn't they? So it is obvious what is the older term here, even in the case of Arbanasi from Zadar who immigrated there 300 years ago. And obviously I can't possibly have anything to do with such a recent term being some 3000 years distant, nor can I with Arbanon/Arben or its varieties either because it likely derives from Illyrian tribe of Albani, with whom I can't have any connection whatsoever going by genetic evidence, because where I come from is the Shop area and before that Northwest Dacia..
It is bit of a mystery from where E-V13 came from. But recently I saw some autosomal results showing Dalmatian Cardials having small ties to Iberomaurusians.
https://populationgenomics.blog/201...sian-related-gene-flow-into-european-farmers/
Where E-L618 might stem from is PP Neolithic B, where some E-M78* was found. Any other way is maritime from N.Africa. And when it comes tothe origin of Cardial Ware there is ambiguity on whether its Levant or N. Africa. And for sure it is no accident E-L618 was rare in EEF's but common in Impresso culture. One found in Cardial Spain, one in Dalmatia and one in Sopot culture (which had ties to Dalmatian Cardial). And of course if genetics did not exist I would have known some population different to the bulk of EEF's existed in Dalmatia. Some suggested Mesolithic presence in Europe, currently I'd say not likely..
E-L618 might have been proto-Cardial, Cardials might have spoken an Afro-Asiatic language not Tyrsenian/Rhaetic.
Ah, Caushi? He looked very close to Bjelopavlici, like 5/37? That means Albanian ancestry for them is very likely. Also YF63304 must be Dushmani? Plenty of new additions today.
Look, we are simply having a debate here, i hope you are not feeling attacked by me or anything..
You can declare however you want, we are simply debating more distant origin here.
Lets leave Trojan, Dardanian, Cuman and similar stories for a while, its only confusing you.
You have some strange not realistic desire to split J-L283 from E-v13, especially when regarding Illyrian ethnogenesis.
When actually when observing realistically all facts, there is no doubt that E-v13 is just as Illyrian as J2b-L283.
How are you Dacio Carpathian when you share your cluster with mostly South Albanians and with Albanian Dibri clan? Who your ancestor was? A "Dacio Carpathian" or Illyrian?
How do Cumans, Bulgars or Hungarians fit into this story ? Also when you are calling Dacians a Carpathians you are making it sound like they are Middle Ages Carpathian arrivals like Slavs, Hungarians or Avars, and not Iron Age established population.
There is not a single evidence that would point you anywhere near Cumans, Avars or Hungarians.
Romanians are mix of native Balkan population and various Middle Age and later arrivals. Finding one modern match in Romania means nothing, how far is that match btw?
You can find match in China tomorrow, will that mean that entire branch comes from China?
These are not Tukric nomadic traces lol. Your Bijelo Polje and Leskovac matches are classic South Serbian
assimilated most likely Albano Illyrians,
hence why you get these close matches in South Serbia place known for assimilation of native populations as Albanians. Even if Kumanica ever had anything with original Cumans, you are not their Y-DNA descended, that is at least clear.
Hungary branch as visible on Yfull is very far to you, and Hungarians neither have E-v13 monopoly in variations neither percentage as Albanians do.
As you can see in Yfull these Hungarian branches are most likely small Balkan offshots,
You said like 500 times Albanians have low TMRCA, while in fact they have high TMRCA, way higher then Hungarians do.
Why would that indicate you arrive from there? There is also L618+ and v13- on Yfull from Sardinia, does that means that entire L-618 and v13 spread from Sardinia?
Also there is earlier separation J2-L283 clades on Sardinia, does that mean that J2-L283 also spread from Sardinia?
They are not older clades but just minor branch-offs. There are Z38456- in Ukraine and Russia, that is true. But they are only few isolated samples with still unknown TMRCA.
You are forgetting that not only Albanians have high TMRCA within Z17107, but also they have multiple brother clades of Z17107 which lack at Rusians, Ukrainians, Hungarians or not to mention any Turkic people..
Rascia and Shop areas are both very known for Albano-Illyrian and more native population generally with high E-v13, unlike North Serbia.
When i said Shqiptar i just ment Albanian, or Albanian remain. Nothing else.
Dont forget that we have plenty of Albanians that are forming their own branches without relatives, so by your theory maybe they are not connected to Albanians also?
You dont always have to have Albanian match to be of Albanian or for that matter Illyrian origin. For example like our E-L241* sample with no relatives and with no fit in any known L241 branch.
Your branch will probably get Albanian match sooner or later, i hope you do realise there is high chance for that.
I am for long time now thinking about E-v13, it is a bit confusing haplogroup to understand.
But best starting point is basing on oldest ancient DNA where as it seems all E-L618 is found exclusively in Neolithic Europe.
Even tho in low percentage, percentage is not important in this case. Therefore without doubt we can conclude that E-L618* entered Europe in Neolithic where later also exclusively European E-v13 developed. Sardinia isolation increased surviving chances of that L618+ and v13- Sardinian sample, hence why you found him there even today in living samples.
Lack of L618* and v13 in N Africa and Middle East proves it developed in Europe. There is one larger ev13 Middle East branch, and few smallers, but they are without doubt CTS5856 Indo-European branch-off.
As you see we got our Albanian PH1246 samples with nice variations debunking the story that it dosent exist among Albanians also confirming Southern, Albanian and actually Montenegrin slavicized origin of Vasojevici tribe.
It goes just well along other E-v13 samples found in North Albania and Montenegro in high percentage and high variations rather then in Bosnia where major E-v13 portion is from Serbs or better to say from Albano Vlachs and similar asimilants into Slavic/Serbian ethnos. Majority of Bosnian and Croatian E-v13 among Serbs must be South Serbian or Montenegrin emigrants from 14 century. Which are as it looks are slavicized natives of most likely Illyrian or Albanian origin.
Pre IE L618*+v13 were probably most similar to modern Basque people which are of pre-IE origin, regarding language.
What an eyesore to see this Dema pretending to defend the Illyro-Albanian cause when he's the first one to detest it despite his Albanian admixture.
.......
Hey Dema enough about me, why don't you enlighten everybody about the fundamental role your clade played in Albanian ethnogenesis?
Maybe you can explore some other options. I know one Bulgarian of your clade also mentioned the Pechenegs as possible ancestors, maybe we can explore together the Pecheneg options for you.
Nebojsa found one Balkar who had 392=12 from a study but he actually looked more likely to be J-Z1825, he is SNP confirmed as M241-, but J2b+. Yet on dys460 and dys390 he looked closer to J-Z1825. He lacked dys437.
..Also Dema when you talk about genetics and ancient cultures, all you have is some vague necessity to tie yourself to "ancient peoples" like a whim of a small child, but you know nothing of these peoples, and hence anything you say is irrelevant. Who doesn't know archaeology can't talk about Iron Age, Bronze Age.. But you can learn..
PS. I saw on Foleja, before Leki deleted your posts that
you said "I agree with 80 % of what Olsi says".
I'm a person with some intuitive abilities, and no wonder in other topic I posted Olsi's video, I sensed you might like him.
So maybe you can post your favorite video of Olsi Jazexhi?
Myclade Y22059 has high pedigre of old layer Montenegrin tribes, 12 century Kriçi tribe that everyone recorded as natives.
Being from old layer of tribes and being native to Montenegro they were most likely part of Illyrian ethnogesis.
Ihope you do understand that modern Albanian clades represent only afraction of once Illyrian clades.
I am not all crazy to claim this clade as Illyrian but giving all theevidence it has high chance for that. Naturally, M205 spread indistant time originally being Semitic but this specific clade has achance to be Illyrianized thru Mediterranean Sea travelers like Phoenicians. So its not that it spread originally with IE and wassince beginning Illyrian, like for example your clade.
Thereis one Bulgarian i remember with interesting markers that falls intoour Kriçi clade but he never upgraded to 111 or did bigY.
M205has no ties to Pechengs. Neither to Bulgars or Turkic people. M205 ingeneral is one of the most unslavic haplogroups out there.
Nomatter E-v13, J2-L283, R1b or I2a-CTS10228 and R1a, they are all more Slavic and are found more among Slavs in multiple subclades thenJ2-M205 which i already said is one of probably most un slavichaplogroups that exist.
Nebojsha was into this when i didnt understand many things but then later iunderstood that he also does not understand many things, as once whenhe didnt understand simple phylogeny when looking at Yfull tree.Nebojsha is evil M205, he also lied about me and made propagandastories trying to represent me as Serb, when in fact he is not Serb himself. But rather assimilated native Montenegrin and we all knowwhat that is.
BTWthis what you say sounds 100 % like J2-Z1825, what are hismarkers?
lol who says i have a need to tie myself to some ancient people, a guy that roleplayed probably over 5 ancient people only in these last few weeks how long i know him. You were Avar, Cuman, Dacian, Thracian, Hungar, Carpathian, Pecheneg, what else lol?
Iam glad you are reading Foleja, perhaps you will learn a word or two on Albanian language, it would not hurt you to learn a language thatyour ancestors spoken : D
Yesthis is true, i agree with 80 % of what Osli says. But this mostlygoes to the things you never heard him talk about.
Hespeaks about communism, socialism, and corrupted government alsoabout politics and how people live in lie. About lies that are toldto people while they are hungry without perspective living some fairytale dream. He compares communism with trash, and i absolutely agreewith him. He has very good information on many things that are goingon in Albania and i can 100 % assure you that he is genuine. I evenhave proves for that because he said some things that only a smartnot corrupted person would be able to say. Something regardingeconomy but there i realized that he is thinking on his own and thathe has no bad intentions.
I would probably have very hard debate with him where ultimately iwould win in arguments but as i said, on the other hand i agree withhim on many things and issues.
I heard and seen Osli video about 2 weeks before you posted it. I really disliked him when i heard him talking first time. He fails somany things, especially when talking about nationality and language.But he is partially right, we cant pretend like Albanians are sameIllyrians that lived 2500 years ago.
My favorite Osli video does not have English/Serbian translate so i doubt you would understand it.
These are internal issues and i should not debate this with outsider,unless you accept your Albanian origin.
But unlike many i am not some retard living in dreams chasing my Illyrian or Phoenician origin, i am very realistic and grounded person in real life.
I understand that we as a nation have way more important things and goals then to live in shadow of some ancient people.
Hereon internet everyone can write whatever they want, but in real life things are not as people are trying to represent them on internet.
Of course R1a/R1b brought the language but you are forgetting some important Z2103 clades which have confirmed old presence in Thracian areas.
One of these is R-Y5587 with looks entrenched there 4300 ybp.
That R-Z93 guy is very interesting in many ways. Autosomally he was closer to Pamiri people or N.Caucasians than to modern Greeks or Albanians.. Some have tied the Dacian/Thracian languages with Baltic languages, he might be carrier of proto-Thracian language but in such a case R-Y5587 might not have been that. Also I think R-BY250 is more Balkan than it seems currently.
I referred to numerical diversity of E-V13 clades in Daco-Thracian areas. Of R-Z93 clades, you are correct Albanians have none like Serbs but Bulgarians have 5 Z93 clades atm. Of those 3 are Bulgar/Cuman, 1 looks local (might be connected to that find) and for 1 I’m not sure 100 %, more likely not local
What an eyesore to see this Dema pretending to defend the Illyro-Albanian cause when he's the first one to detest it despite his Albanian admixture.
Thracian/proto-Thracian R1a-Z93 sample from Bulgaria is the closest to Swedes. Approximation of modern populations is 3/4 Nothern Swede and 1/4 Caucasian alike.
This Thracian ploting much more northern than your "Nordic Aryan"Bosniaks from central Bosnia,
my dear Cuman wannabe friend.
Andhe has nothing to do with Slavs genetically, because Slavs never had that extra N. Caucasian/S. Central Asian admixture which made Z93's distinct from their distant cousins who lacked it and they also failed to do anything noticeable after expanding with CW until the period of Slavic expansion..
That's why he plots closer to Swedes as Swedes have more of some PIE admix than modern E-Slavs/W.Slavs. Besides whether he is proto-Thracian is debatable, he can be yet his archaeological burial is not well researched, he might be also some proto-Mycenean. Generally he seems very steppe Iranic,so genetically he should have spoken that language at that time. But this sample needs to be more analysed. One Bulgarian clade is a good candidate to be related with that find..
Naturally as he lacks any ties to SE Europe.
Unfortunately for you Bosniaks from Central Bosnia seem to plot on avg. more "Northern" than any Serbs, and also they are to a significant degree direct descendants of Medieval Bosnjani, whereas Bosnian Serbs have perhaps 1-2 % of such ancestry.
If I were wannabe I would not have had Y-DNA cousins where I have them, in Greater Cumania and not have them elsewhere in Hungary. Many might be Cuman wannabes because horse-riding is better than what ancestors of most people were doing 600+ years ago..
You always had a big problem with E-V13 eh Bachus? That's good as is seeing you teaming up with your friend Dema.
Many might be Cuman wannabes because horse-riding is better than what ancestors of most people were doing 600+ years ago..
You always had a big problem with E-V13 eh Bachus? That's good as is seeing you teaming up with your friend Dema.
OneSerb from Banija ploting more northern than Muslim woman from CentralBosnia who results you posted on Poreklo. Banija Serb has 62%Baltic+North_Atlantic and Muslim woman about 60% on K13 Eurogenes(the best calculator). Deal with it!
K13of Banija Serb (he is I2-PH908)
1Baltic 33.25
2North_Atlantic 28.71
3West_Med 15.85
4East_Med 6.84
5Red_Sea 1.71
6Siberian 0.67
7Oceanian 0.15
Hisposition on K15 map (SRB).
One Serb from Banija ploting more northern than Muslim woman from CentralBosnia who results you posted on Poreklo. Banija Serb has 62%Baltic+North_Atlantic and Muslim woman about 60% on K13 Eurogenes(the best calculator). Deal with it!
K13 of Banija Serb(he is I2-PH908)
1 Baltic
33.25
2North_Atlantic 28.71
3West_Med 15.85
4 East_Med 6.84
5 Red_Sea 1.71
6Siberian 0.67
7 Oceanian 0.15
His position on K15 map(SRB).
You know him, his nick on Poreklo is Barbarylion. I have seen K15 ofMuslim guy from Central Bosnia and he is singificant more southernthan this Serb Barbarylion.
I have question for you! If this Banija Serb is descendant of Herzegovinian vlachs (your claim of origin of most of Serbs) why heploting more northern than your super Slavic Bosniaks from Central Bosnia?
and your posting on Poreklo are heavy anti-Serbian. You are just Montenegrin-Bosniak mix, with identity crisis because of your Albanian paternal line.
I am not against E-V13, but you are.
Your claim of Turkic origin of your paternal line is running fromreality!
Youare not ethnic Serb
T
Dema started t r o l l i n when he saw Derite quoting my analysis of Greek haplotypes, so he was angry that Albanians were "praising" me.. Shouldn't then he try to claim my clade was non-Albanian? Logically yes, but the point was to t r o l l as if me having Albanian ancestry would "hit" me. It wouldn't in any way. I like often ethnic folklore music and I must have listened to this 50 times since 2015 or so..:cool-v:
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