J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Trojet]

Among the hundreds of YDNA listed here, https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...8&ll=45.49395456132537,24.025325085150826&z=6 there are only 2 or 3 J in Europe from ancient times.
Today's situation places Albanians closest to the South and Central Greeks from the perspective of YDNA, with almost identical percentages of J or E.
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Region/Haplogroup[/TD]
[TH="class: I1"]I1
[/TH]
[TH="class: I2"]I2a[/TH]
[TH="class: I2b"]I2b[/TH]
[TH="class: R1a"]R1a
[/TH]
[TH="class: R1b"]R1b [/TH]
[TH="class: G2a"]G
[/TH]
[TH="class: J2 sorttable_sorted_reverse"]J2 ▴[/TH]
[TH="class: J1"]J1[/TH]
[TH="class: E1b"]E1b1b[/TH]
[TH="class: T"]T[/TH]
[TH="class: Q"]Q[/TH]
[TH="class: N1c1"]N[/TH]
[TD="class: samples"]Sample size[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: sortable"]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"][/TD]
[TD="class: I1"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"][/TD]
[TD="class: J2"][/TD]
[TD="class: J1"][/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"][/TD]
[TD="class: T"][/TD]
[TD="class: Q"][/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"][/TD]
[TD="class: samples"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: alt2"]
[TD="class: left"]South Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]10.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]20.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]3.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27
[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]4.5
[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Albania[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]1.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19.5[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]27.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 130"]Central Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: I1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: I2"]7[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a"]11[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: J2"]19[/TD]
[TD="class: J1"]3.5[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b"]29.5[/TD]
[TD="class: T"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: Q"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: N1c1"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: samples"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
These does not prove at all that J has been such a large component some 500 - 1000 or more years ago.
Probably J exploded very recently from south Balkans, and are now found all over Europe, even in Estonia, Sweden, Norway, Scotland or Latvia.

This thread was turning out to be quite informative in regards to J-L283 until you started posting this off topic nonsense.

I would ask a moderator to delete all the posts on this thread from user gidai, otherwise as a J-L283 researcher, I may not post any more news here in regards to this haplogroup.

 

[gidai]

This thread was turning out to be quite informative in regards to J-L283 until you started posting this off topic nonsense.

I would ask a moderator to delete all the posts on this thread from user gidai, otherwise as a J-L283 researcher, I may not post any more news here in regards to this haplogroup.

... I do not understand! What are disturbing about?!
There are not my inventions, there are only some data about past and recent time spread of haplogroups, published by researchers!

 

[Ownstyler]

I would ask a moderator to delete all the posts on this thread from user gidai, otherwise as a J-L283 researcher, I may not post any more news here in regards to this haplogroup.

I agree with this suggestion. Please also delete my responses to him. We can to continue to debate how to count in private messages, without ruining a nice thread. Thank you.

 

[gidai]

I agree with this suggestion. Please also delete my responses to him.

You were elusive in the discussion and you avoided answering... Apart from the 5 Js found by me, out of 69 in Balkans area, you say 7 out of 20!? Which are these 7 out of 20?

p.s. Balkans area is formed by: Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Kosovo, Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Rep. Moldova, Serbia, Slovenia and European Turkey.
Or something like this if you want.

 

[Regio X]

Hi. Just figure out, based on father's matches in 23andMe, that a far ancestor of him must have belonged to J2b-L283. The somewhat curious fact is that this ancestor is thought to have been a cimbro, born in Altipiano di Asiago, Vicenza. He and his relatives migrated to Northern Treviso province in the beginning of XIX century, where my father's 2nd great-grandmother, a daughter, was born.

 

[Sile]

Hi. Just figure out, based on father's matches in 23andMe, that a far ancestor of him must have belonged to J2b-L283. The somewhat curious fact is that this ancestor is thought to have been a cimbro, born in Altipiano di Asiago, Vicenza. He and his relatives migrated to Northern Treviso province in the beginning of XIX century, where my father's 2nd great-grandmother, a daughter, was born.

a lot of ex-venetians moved from Istria and Fiume ( rijeka ) to Asiago in the Istrian Exodus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian-Dalmatian_exodus
.
I know of at least 3 families ( non relatives )
.
I have 3 x Richter surname matches in 23andme ( could be brothers ) who are J2b2-L283 with mtdna of W3a1
I will get more info once they accept to share with me.....
more connected with a Bonatto family
The Richter family emigrated from the Austrian Tyrol to the
Parana State in Brazil approximately in 1876.
unknown the place in Tyrol ,on where was born Johannes Richter
This is the J-L283 family
one family in 2 places last 200 years .....Imst Tyrol and Fondo Val di Non Italy .............anything for you?

 

[Regio X]

a lot of ex-venetians moved from Istria and Fiume ( rijeka ) to Asiago in the Istrian Exodus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian-Dalmatian_exodus
.
I know of at least 3 families ( non relatives )
.
I have 3 x Richter surname matches in 23andme ( could be brothers ) who are J2b2-L283 with mtdna of W3a1
I will get more info once they accept to share with me.....
more connected with a Bonatto family
The Richter family emigrated from the Austrian Tyrol to the
Parana State in Brazil approximately in 1876.
unknown the place in Tyrol ,on where was born Johannes Richter
This is the J-L283 family
one family in 2 places last 200 years .....Imst Tyrol and Fondo Val di Non Italy

Thanks for the info.
I myself have Bonato in family, however, they were from province of Padova.

.............anything for you?

What do you mean?

 

[Regio X]

@Sile
From the link you shared:
"The term Istrian-Dalmatian exodus refers to the post-World War II expulsion and departure of ethnic Italians from the Yugoslav territory of Istria, as well as the cities of Zadar and Rijeka. "

Post-World War II... Ethnic Italians...

The cimbro I referred to was born around 1770, and migrated from the Altipiano di Asiago to North Treviso in 1808/1809, well before the World War II.

 

[Wanderer]

Looks like I'm right or close to right. Phylographer estimates j-z600 occuring in italy at 3400 BC.

xz597 likely took an agean route toward sardinia. And corsica and went to Italy. Or went through the balkans into italy and early basal offshoots were bottlenecked in sardinia.
The first is more likely

Either way FSM touched -z597 with noodley appendage and was blessed
If you look at Y full majority of -z597 are in italy sardina. While Z585* is labeled Italy only.

 

[Aspurg]

BTW regarding Romanian Basarab cluster J-Z631* that seems certainly related to Thaci-Korbi cluster: 8 of Basarab are from Sibiu, but 9th RU241 is from Gorj County. Considering he has a more distant haplotype (not sharing dys390 and dys635 with others) it seems these Basarab arrived to Sibiu from Gorj area that is from SW direction, further to the SW they also have relatives. Actually between Sibiu, Gorj and Thaci-Korbi location one could draw a straight line.

 

[blevins13]

Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013. This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.

Hi Maciamo this very confusing so clarify please, in one place you say that:
R1a-The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Here you say I think something different, since for Illyrians is generally accepted that they had kurgan culture with tumulus burials.....
So in your opinion do Illyrians and Mycenaean come form the same culture in different waves or from two different cultures?


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[Piro Ilir]

Illyrians:

I2a-Slav was somewhere in Ukraine-Belarus area.

Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs

 

[Piro Ilir]

Hi Maciamo this very confusing so clarify please, in one place you say that:
R1a-The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Here you say I think something different, since for Illyrians is generally accepted that they had kurgan culture with tumulus burials.....
So in your opinion do Illyrians and Mycenaean come form the same culture in different waves or from two different cultures?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

I think he is very confusing. J2b2 found is old 1650 bce. Z2103 found is old 2725 bce. The best candidate for proto Illyrian would be the Z2103. J2b2 seems was attached later to the Illyrian Y-dna group.

 

[Wanderer]

Is it probable that a phonecian route or western asian greek of J-Z600/J-z627 took place? Which is why they are offshoots in sardinia?

 

[Dibran]

Is it probable that a phonecian route or western asian greek of J-Z600/J-z627 took place? Which is why they are offshoots in sardinia?

The problem is J2b-L283 was found in a Proto-Illyrian and it’s overwhelming concentration is in the Balkans. Moreso amongst Albanians. As far as I know, in the case of Greece much of the L283 is from later Middle Ages migrations from Albanians. Unless there’s some older Greek specific clades.

 

[Yetos]

J2b of Adriatic is avery strange HG
it is isolated from the rest J2b pool,
yet has its own expand

 

[Wanderer]

The problem is J2b-L283 was found in a Proto-Illyrian and it’s overwhelming concentration is in the Balkans. Moreso amongst Albanians. As far as I know, in the case of Greece much of the L283 is from later Middle Ages migrations from Albanians. Unless there’s some older Greek specific clades.

But the thing is those J-L283 clades are far down in the clade tree of Z585. And -z585 clades had to exist. They exist more often in sardinia. Carthagenians were exterminated , they werent many surviving carthaginians. There is a J-Z600 person with paternal origin from dominican republic. And one that is from Istanbul turkey but with a greek surname.
Remember Z585 diverges around 5400ybp.
Thats abot 3400bc.
So at 3400bc Z600 -585 was probably still in the caucus or anatolia region.
And bottlenecked in sardinia or Mediterranean island.

The samples of -z585 in sardinia aren't ancient samples.

Probably expanded sailed through and landed in sardinia as part of carthagenian expansion or western asian greek flight from conquest.
If z600 (-z585) was european we should see it more in european mainland but we don't. So z600 (-z585) had to come from western asia around 1000 bc.
.

 

[Polska]

The L283 sample(s) found in Sardinia were from the Nuragic era which saw the arrival of the Bonannaro culture in Sardinia. The Bonannaro culture was from northern Italy/Central Europe. So the L283 in Sardinia likely came from continental Europe.

 

[Wanderer]

The L283 sample(s) found in Sardinia were from the Nuragic era which saw the arrival of the Bonannaro culture in Sardinia. The Bonannaro culture was from northern Italy/Central Europe. So the L283 in Sardinia likely came from continental Europe.

Nurahgic era is from 1800 BCE to 238 BCE

The first people in the adriatic sea were the carians who western asians.

8th century BC which is between 1800 and 238BC the phonecians and I qoute:

From the 8th century BC, Phoenicians founded several cities and strongholds on strategic points in the south and west of Sardinia, often peninsulas or islands near estuaries, easy to defend and natural harbours, such as Tharros, Bithia, Sulci, Noraand Caralis (Cagliari). The majority of the inhabitants in these cities were of indigenous nuragic stock while the Phoenician element was, although culturally predominant, in minority.[11][12] The Phoenicians came originally from what is now Lebanon and founded a vast trading network in the Mediterranean.

So you see, carthagenian /hypothesis still plausible. As J-Z600 -585 is not mainland european. And as there is a istanbul J-Z600 -Z585

Also Z585 split is 3400 bc. Over 1000 years apart from1800 BC from begining of nuraghic culture. So it makes no sense.

As Z600 -z585 is not really a mainland european haplo the only ancient sources are caucasians and georgians. And modern old worlders is sardinian and Istanbul.

Georgians are colchians. Herodotus states that colchians were decended from ancient egyptians.
But that does not necessarily mean j-z600 spread from egyptians. But a phonecian who had decended from colchians probably, or people of sardus if you believe nuraghic? Are actually hellens and berbers

Sardonian? Sardinia? Sardus? Sidonia? Sidon?

According to Sallust,[1] Sardus son of Hercules, left Libya along with a great multitude of men and occupied the island of Sardinia, which was so named after him. Later Pausanias confirms the story of Sallust and in the second century CE writes that Sardus was the son of Makeris (identifiable with Mecur / Macer, a Libyan name deriving from the Berber imɣur "to grow"), and that the island of Sardinia changed its name from Ichnusa to Sardinia in honor of Sardus.[2][3]

In AD 1855, the sarcophagus of King Eshmun’azar II was discovered. From a Phoenician inscription on its lid, it appears that he was a "king of the Sidonians," probably in the 5th century BC, and that his mother was a priestess of ‘Ashtart, "the goddess of the Sidonians."[3] In this inscription the gods Eshmun and Ba‘al Sidon 'Lord of Sidon' (who may or may not be the same) are mentioned as chief gods of the Sidonians. ‘Ashtart is entitled ‘Ashtart-Shem-Ba‘al '‘Ashtart the name of the Lord', a title also found in an Ugaritictext.

 

[Polska]

But do we really KNOW that the Sardinian was Z585? Could he belong to a branch further downstream? Did he have any Yamnaya ancestry? Or did he have an autosomal ancestry consistent with Phoenician ancestry?

Looking at YFull, every one of today’s members of Z585 is an Italian.