Always enjoyed reading your posts, as well as those from Trojet, Dibran, and Aspurg. Good source of information on L283 for me.
I can’t believe given the advancements in the phylogenetic tree, people still believe Alexander the Great spread J2b M241 to Iran or that J2b L283 originated in the Middle East. Takes 30 seconds to login to YFull and look at the YTree. It’s an overwhelmingly European haplogroup (L283) with only a few samples total outside of Europe.
I am always for rational conversation.
This clown is luckily banned, and we wont have to bother with his Alexander the Great M241 in India and similar stupidity anymore. Especially since he is throwing theories like selling vegetables on bazaar but then he is afraid to test himself.
Anyways, For me it was really puzzling that both Europeans and Indians share M241 SNP, i was always wondering did M241 originate in Caucasus and then spread to India with Indo-Europeans like Sanskrit speakers and Iranians or its actually some Zagros Native (same what i claim for J2-M205). As we know 99 % of people are pushing Caucasus theory but i think this theory is fish on a dry. Many people are saying that J2b has origin in Caucasus. But this does not hold water anymore.
Narasimhan et al ancient J2b-M241 samples are yet oldest M241 ancient samples found and they belong to Pre-IE cultures. Also as i understood the research, even tho i have to read it few more times because there is so much material and i really didn't pay much attention. But as i understood Indian M241 is more connected to the pre-IE populations as Dravidians in the south and not more recent IE arrivals like Sanskrit speakers.
Basically what this means is that closest brother of J2b2-L283, which is J2b2-Z2432 and btw much older brother since it has 3000 years higher TMRCA, is native for East Zagros, Iran, and India, and is of pre-IE origin.
On the west side of Zagros there is J-Z2453, its brother clade of European J-L283 and Indian J-Z2432 and it has higher TMRCA and diversity then Indian and European subclades together, formed 13800 ybp,
TMRCA 13500 ybp.
Its exclusively Middle Eastern subclade of J2b2, and its more diverse then Indian and European J2b2 together even tho Indian is more diverse then European L283 younger one.
Also first brother clade of J2-M241 is J2-M205, with TMRCA around 6000 years and Middle Eastern Fertile Crescent expansion and probably same as M241 is of Late Paleolithic and Early Mesolithic origin from Zagros mountains.
Also some people are trying to connect J2b-M241 or J2b-M205 to Iranians which is funny to me. In Iran there was major study, only about 1 % of Iranians are J2b-M241, and most of these fall into Afro-Iranian ethnic group, meaning they are probably some separated clade that spread among Iranian black Africans.
Also J2-M205 is around 1 % in Iran, which is usual percentage for J2-M205, but the deal is that majority of these are Iranian Amenians and we know that we have one Armenian cluster into very exclusive Bronze Age Fertile Crescent Middle Eastern J2-M205.
I would also like to add that Caucasus and East Anatolia were heavily tested for ancient DNA, and few of J2 samples were all J2a-M410. The only J2b-M12* sample so brotherclade of M241 and M205 is found in center of Zagros mountains in first world farmers 10000 BCE. Probably of earlier Zagros hunter-gatherer origin.
So by all given facts by now, East Zagros and Indian J2-M241 is of pre-IE origin and is probably Zagros native. J2-M205 is of same hunter gatherer / first farmers Zagros origin but its MRCA expanded in Middle East Bronze Age. And J-Z2453 from Middle East found west of Zagros is of same origin.
By this J2-L283 is Zagros expansion to Caucasus, where he (TMRCA 5500 ybp) probably become some native north Caucasian population and then it was picked up by R1b tribes from oldest IE cultures and with them as IE expanded to Bronze Age Europe.
Migration from Zagros to Caucasus probably took place somewhere around 6000-8000 years ago giving that L283 TMRCA is 5500 ybp and his closest relatives are all around Zagros mountains and virtually none existent in Caucasus
If i made any mistake anywhere which is possible please anyone correct me, i typed this only for the sake of further debate.
Here is table with Narasimhan ancient DNA and many more of them -
https://science.sciencemag.org/high...ghwire_adjunct_files/1/aat7487_Tables1-5.xlsx
Can we confirm that oldest J2b-M241 samples from this research belongs to pre-IE culture ?