Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

[Angela]

Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?

I'm going to give this another try, both because my answer to you was rather perfunctory and because it's a puzzle, and I like to try to answer puzzles.

In the part of the Supplement dedicated to Empuries, they talk about three Empuries 2 samples, or samples which carry Mycenaean like ancestry, and all carry Ydna J. (Empuries was settled by Greeks from Phocaea in 575 BCE.)

18205 300-100 BCE labeled Hellinistic
18208 370-204 BCE labeled Hellinistic
18216 57-208 CE labeled Roman Period

However, in the Tables there are two more Empuries 2 type samples, for a total of 5. They didn’t include the female samples with that profile, perhaps because given the males with that profile were all Ydna J the inferences were stronger?

18215 400-350 BCE labeled Greek
18338 100-200 CE labeled Roman Period

Now there’s a correspondence between this data and the five samples in the PCA which you provided which land in the “Aegean Bronze Age” space.

The PCA labels the sample closest to Sicily and almost out of that Aegean Bronze Age space Greek Empuries. So, I think that’s 18215.

The samples labeled Hellenistic are clearly smack in the middle of that space. So those are undoubtedly 18205 and 18208.

There’s no Late Roman sample which meets the Empuries 2 criteria, so that leaves us with two Roman period samples: 18216 and 18338.

I’ve already run 18205 and 18208 (detailed results upthread), which both come out as closest to European Jews and Island Greeks and Southern Italians. Other calculators might be able to sort out that overlap between those groups.

Unfortunately, I can’t find 18216 (a male sample), and 18338 (a female sample), nor the “Greek” sample, 18215 on the list of samples for which we have coordinates.
Perhaps Duarte can help us out with coordinates, but there may be a problem, because I inquired about it before and I think he said it wasn’t possible.

Anyway, the three samples the author was discussing as being “Mycenaean” like were all males, so my guess is that the “Roman Era” sample which lands within the Aegean Bronze Age space is 18216, which leaves 18338, a female sample, as the “outlier” or “atypical” sample.

Until and if we get coordinates for these three samples, this other PCA from the sample is a bit helpful.
It looks to me as if the “atypical” sample is much more Armenian Bronze Age like, even though it is still labeled Empuries 2 in the Tables. I’m not sure I’d agree with that, but without access to coordinates I don’t see how it could be tested.

I really wish we could see what 18215 is like.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Johane: Not off the top of my head. Most of what you are going to find are articles from journals or publications that deal with Catholic Theology and the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome. From an historical perspective, It was the Council of Basel-Ferrera-Florence (1431-1449AD) that attempted to reunite Rome and Constantinople. Some Eastern Churches did in fact re-enter communion with Rome shortly thereafter, others have over the succeeding years.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum17.htm

http://www.katolsk.no/organisasjon/verden/chronology/orient_italoalbanian

A recent Vatican article on Pope Francis and Italo-Albanians from the Eparchy of Lungro in Consenza, Calabria. THe Lungro Eparchy governs some 30,000 Italo-Albanians from the regions of Abruzzo, Apugila, Calabria and Basilicata. The Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi in Sicily governs some 23,000 Italo-Albanians there. There is also as I noted a Monastery in Rome that serves Italo-Albanians in Rome. All of these Italo-Albanian Catholics are part of the Byzantine-Greek Tradition. By that I do not suggest anything to do with ethnicity. The term Byzantine-Greek in this context is purely a Liturgical and Theological term.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2019-05/pope-francis-speech-eparchy-lungro-anniversary.html

On another note, it was my maternal Great Grandfather (my mothers Mother's family) who was baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano. Her Father was Roman-Latin Rite. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a theological thread but I hope this helps.

 

[D.L.M]

Angela, they carried J2a? I thought there was only a R1b found. Otherwise other than that sample, the one close to Sicilians (the Classical one) I don't consider the other samples as a good source for Classical Greek DNA.

 

[Angela]

Angela, they carried J2a? I thought there was only a R1b found. Otherwise other than that sample, the one close to Sicilians (the Classical one) I don't consider the other samples as a good source for Classical Greek DNA.

Out of the five samples which are labeled Empuries 2 and which Olalde considers as "Mycenaean" like, all three of the men carry yDna J. They couldn't resolve it more than that, so I don't know if it's J2a.

Until we get samples from Greece, mainland and islands, from the Classical Era, I don't think there's any way of knowing which of these Empuries samples are closest.

I do wish we had coordinates for the three we are missing so we'd have a bit more data.

 

[Angela]

Duarte has kindly provided us with coordinates for two more of the Empuries samples.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]7.62002625[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9500, align: right"]10.62696570[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3500, align: right"]13.44065436[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1700, align: right"]14.30960115[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0400, align: right"]14.89313936[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000F, align: right"]15.44070918[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0022, align: right"]15.98748886[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0023, align: right"]16.03119727[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005A, align: right"]17.64413471[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006B, align: right"]18.14439219[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A5, align: right"]19.85592859[/TD]
[TD]Nusayri_Turkey[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D8, align: right"]21.33929708[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DE, align: right"]21.53421366[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EA, align: right"]21.88000457[/TD]
[TD]Turk_West_BlackSea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EA, align: right"]21.88404213[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Central_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EB, align: right"]21.90326811[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EC, align: right"]21.94899087[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Southwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EE, align: right"]22.00821665[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F0, align: right"]22.05038775[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F6, align: right"]22.22957939[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Northwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FB, align: right"]22.39646401[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FE, align: right"]22.47247650[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Anatolia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E400FF, align: right"]23.29326512[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Central_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E300FF, align: right"]23.31757706[/TD]
[TD]Crimean_Tatar_Coast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E000FF, align: right"]23.41663298[/TD]
[TD]Turk_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]7.62002625[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9500, align: right"]10.62696570[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3500, align: right"]13.44065436[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1700, align: right"]14.30960115[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0400, align: right"]14.89313936[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000F, align: right"]15.44070918[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0022, align: right"]15.98748886[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0023, align: right"]16.03119727[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005A, align: right"]17.64413471[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006B, align: right"]18.14439219[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A5, align: right"]19.85592859[/TD]
[TD]Nusayri_Turkey[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D8, align: right"]21.33929708[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DE, align: right"]21.53421366[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EA, align: right"]21.88000457[/TD]
[TD]Turk_West_BlackSea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EA, align: right"]21.88404213[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Central_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EB, align: right"]21.90326811[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EC, align: right"]21.94899087[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Southwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EE, align: right"]22.00821665[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F0, align: right"]22.05038775[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F6, align: right"]22.22957939[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Northwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FB, align: right"]22.39646401[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FE, align: right"]22.47247650[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Anatolia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E400FF, align: right"]23.29326512[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Central_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E300FF, align: right"]23.31757706[/TD]
[TD]Crimean_Tatar_Coast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E000FF, align: right"]23.41663298[/TD]
[TD]Turk_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I think 14338 is definitely the one which is outside the Aegean Bronze box. It’s one of the women so perhaps admixed?
Is it being pulled partly by the bit of North African admixture, maybe Carthaginian? It’s also being pulled by the Caucasus, though, which is why it probably ends up in Armenian Bronze Age despite the 4% Mozabite.

87.0	Morocco_Jews
4.0	Mozabite
3.6	Nganassan
3.4	Sephardic_Jews
2.0	Georgian_Adjara

[TD="colspan: 2"] Target: I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)
Distance: 3.1490% / 3.14896747 | ADC: 0.25x [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

There’s something about Moroccan Jews. Could they be the closest of western Jews to the heavily EN like originals?

 

[bigsnake49]

Angela, why are we comparing ancient Empuries samples to current populations? Should we not be comparing them to other ancient populations of the approximately same era?

 

[Angela]

Angela, why are we comparing ancient Empuries samples to current populations? Should we not be comparing them to other ancient populations of the approximately same era?

We don't have ancient Greek samples except for Mycenaeans and Minoans, and the paper has already told us that they were "Mycenaean like".

So, I thought I'd see if maybe they came out Crete like since my hypothesis was that the Classical Era Greeks might have been more island Greek like.

What other ancient samples should we do? We can divide them up and run them and see what happens.

 

[kingdavid]

That's interesting.

Looking at the list of Empuries samples we have, only one is listed as Roman Era, and the sample is French like. Maybe we don't have all the Roman Era samples?
Of the ones we have, only two plot in that general area.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]9.81282834[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9600, align: right"]10.58188547[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8300, align: right"]11.13472945[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6500, align: right"]12.01633658[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5D00, align: right"]12.25316808[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4D00, align: right"]12.72192065[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.85049439[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3600, align: right"]13.41035421[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Maybe it's this one?

Or this?
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5400, align: right"]12.51731201[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3000, align: right"]13.60231966[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1C00, align: right"]14.18309521[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1800, align: right"]14.29497814[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1300, align: right"]14.44845666[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0C00, align: right"]14.65609041[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0025, align: right"]16.09613944[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I wonder if there's a difference in quality? Why, otherwise, do they talk about only one such sample?

As for "Roman Era" samples, as I said, we only have one, and the sample is French like.

If Duarte reads this perhaps he'll check if there are other "Roman Era" samples from Empuries.

Also, I'm not sure where the Mycenaeans plot there, although I would guess probably within the Aegean Bronze Age cluster somewhere.

One of the flaws in Dodecad 12b, and all calculators have them, is that it has difficulty distinguishing between Southern Italians/Aegean Greeks/European Jews.

thanks for sharing angela
very interesting
and durate kudos for all your work


also here is k12b values of i8215 the greek -

tomenoble uploaded him to gedmatch back in the day

greek,2.20,0,3.49,0.06,35.23,9.17,0,0,11.48,0,38.05,0.33

he is different from the Hellenistic period i8205
he is more closer to campania and calabria than ashkenazim jews ( although jews are still up there)

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]greek[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAB00, align: right"]9.97631224[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9D00, align: right"]10.38538866[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9800, align: right"]10.51538397[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8300, align: right"]11.15872753[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7C00, align: right"]11.33960758[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7300, align: right"]11.61857930[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6500, align: right"]12.02919713[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.46134837[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2E00, align: right"]13.63947580[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]13.89471482[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2200, align: right"]13.99689780[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1D00, align: right"]14.13668271[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000D, align: right"]15.38203283[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0025, align: right"]16.08403917[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003D, align: right"]16.78521075[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0083, align: right"]18.83907774[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BA, align: right"]20.47784361[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BB, align: right"]20.49139576[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BF, align: right"]20.60435148[/TD]
[TD]Crimean_Tatar_Coast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CE, align: right"]21.05207368[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E4, align: right"]21.69961060[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E8, align: right"]21.82012145[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F900FF, align: right"]22.66870971[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E000FF, align: right"]23.41968492[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BC00FF, align: right"]24.48508117[/TD]
[TD]Nusayri_Turkey[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[bigsnake49]

We don't have ancient Greek samples except for Mycenaeans and Minoans, and the paper has already told us that they were "Mycenaean like".

So, I thought I'd see if maybe they came out Crete like since my hypothesis was that the Classical Era Greeks might have been more island Greek like.

What other ancient samples should we do? We can divide them up and run them and see what happens.

Do we have any Iberian and Gaul samples of the same era? Roman?

 

[Angela]

Do we have any Iberian and Gaul samples of the same era? Roman?

I ran all the Empuries samples for another thread. One is Catalan like, one is French like, one rather Northern European. 18205,18208, and 18215 are "Mycenaean" like. Unfortunately, coordinates don't seem to be available for 18216, which is from the Roman Period. Then there's 18338, also from the Roman period, which is not quite in the Aegean Bronze Age cluster.

I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1,4.28,0.00,0.00,0.16,51.43,35.70,0.98,0.00,0.00,0.00,6.48,0.97
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2,1.20,0.00,2.31,0.00,22.09,16.57,0.00,0.00,20.72,2.25,34.86,0.00
I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1,10.54,1.38,0.82,0.29,39.66,38.43,1.88,0.00,1.52,0.00,3.76,1.71
I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2,0.47,0.00,4.06,0.00,36.68,5.45,0.00,0.00,12.64,0.00,40.71,0.00
I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.77,0.00,1.74,0.00,48.23,30.32,0.21,0.60,0.79,0.17,11.18,0.00
I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,4.28,0.01,0.00,2.21,53.30,32.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.31,6.28,0.00
I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.96,0.00,0.00,0.00,56.45,25.38,5.94,0.00,0.00,0.00,5.27,0.00
I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical,4.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,37.75,47.43,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,10.75,0.00
I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.42,0.00,0.00,2.22,55.45,29.43,1.50,0.00,0.00,2.76,2.22,0.00
I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.53,55.32,34.65,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.18,1.31

R850_Iron_Age_Ardea,7.30,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0,0.43,14.77,0,40.10,0
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea,1.59,0,1.39,0,49.28,24.97,0,0.14,1.93,0,20.26,0.45
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella,4.84,0.64,0.65,0,47.12,28.54,0.15,0,4.13,0,13.40,0.53
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata,6.45,0,3.03,0,33.19,11.94,0,0,11.63,0,33.74,0.02
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,0,0,13.01,0,38.12,12.14,0.37,1.98,11.26,0,22.70,0.42
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,7.18,0.17,2.38,0,39.08,25.74,0,0,5.98,0,18.84,0.66
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,1.01,0,0.68,0.15,47.26,22.79,0,0.21,7.39,0.21,20.17,0.34
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia,1.56,0.19,2.85,0,47.15,21.66,0,0,5.46,0,20.85,0
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro,5.02,1.78,1.33,0,35.08,26.46,0,0,5.43,0,24.50,0.40
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima,3.86,0.98,1.53,0.19,47.23,20.37,1.43,0,3.31,0,21.10,0
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica,2.11,0,1.96,0.60,47.70,24.04,0,0,1.33,0,22.26,0

If I run the Empuries samples against R850, the "Cretan like" Iron Age Roman sample, this is what I get. The distances for the "Mycenaean like samples" are 12, 15, and 18.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R850_Iron_Age_Ardea[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]12.18268443[/TD]
[TD]I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0011, align: right"]15.50707903[/TD]
[TD]18215_Greek_Empuries[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.79902525[/TD]
[TD]I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]46.47271995[/TD]
[TD]I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]51.43860126[/TD]
[TD]I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]52.38937774[/TD]
[TD]I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]53.93703551[/TD]
[TD]I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]54.07582824[/TD]
[TD]I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]54.28650293[/TD]
[TD]I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]55.26607368[/TD]
[TD]I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]56.66914857[/TD]
[TD]I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



Against R437, the sample which has about half its ancestry from more "eastern" sources than the other Iron Age Roman and Etruscan samples, the Empuries samples we're looking for are at a distance of 6,12, and 16.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EEFF00, align: right"]6.98619353[/TD]
[TD]18215_Greek_Empuries[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6B00, align: right"]11.86266833[/TD]
[TD]I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0028, align: right"]16.17631602[/TD]
[TD]I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.53527327[/TD]
[TD]I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]41.37854517[/TD]
[TD]I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]41.74071394[/TD]
[TD]I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]42.12581987[/TD]
[TD]I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]42.32467365[/TD]
[TD]I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]42.97417713[/TD]
[TD]I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.20580505[/TD]
[TD]I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]44.26086420[/TD]
[TD]I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

One sample does better.

Then, against the Latin sample R851, the Empuries ones which matter for this analysis are at 29,33,37.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R851_Iron_Age_Ardea[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6A00, align: right"]11.87067816[/TD]
[TD]I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0040, align: right"]16.89187971[/TD]
[TD]I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0045, align: right"]17.02914854[/TD]
[TD]I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0066, align: right"]17.99480203[/TD]
[TD]I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007B, align: right"]18.60851149[/TD]
[TD]I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C1, align: right"]20.67380226[/TD]
[TD]I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A400FF, align: right"]25.17323181[/TD]
[TD]I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5F00FF, align: right"]27.19949632[/TD]
[TD]I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1700FF, align: right"]29.31806269[/TD]
[TD]18215_Greek_Empuries[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.88316286[/TD]
[TD]I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]37.18014658[/TD]
[TD]I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Against R1016, the one "upper class" Iron Age sample: the Mycenaean like samples are at the bottom.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0A00, align: right"]14.70188083[/TD]
[TD]I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00AE, align: right"]20.12314588[/TD]
[TD]I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C2, align: right"]20.71329525[/TD]
[TD]I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E3, align: right"]21.66394470[/TD]
[TD]I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EC, align: right"]21.95384704[/TD]
[TD]I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E700FF, align: right"]23.20906719[/TD]
[TD]I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A400FF, align: right"]25.16385702[/TD]
[TD]18215_Greek_Empuries[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6200FF, align: right"]27.12510461[/TD]
[TD]I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2B00FF, align: right"]28.74794427[/TD]
[TD]I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.75085202[/TD]
[TD]I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.98077692[/TD]
[TD]I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Or, we could do it another way. Run each Empuries sample against all the ancient samples. Now that Vahaduo has added all our coordinates under K12b, it's easy.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9C00, align: right"]10.41409622[/TD]
[TD]R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9B00, align: right"]10.42940075[/TD]
[TD]R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8400, align: right"]11.12061149[/TD]
[TD]R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8200, align: right"]11.17104740[/TD]
[TD]R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7500, align: right"]11.54777901[/TD]
[TD]R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7000, align: right"]11.71939418[/TD]
[TD]R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]12.18268443[/TD]
[TD]R850_Iron_Age_Ardea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.46934641[/TD]
[TD]R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5500, align: right"]12.49862392[/TD]
[TD]R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5400, align: right"]12.52843167[/TD]
[TD]R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5300, align: right"]12.54786834[/TD]
[TD]R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5300, align: right"]12.57320166[/TD]
[TD]R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4600, align: right"]12.94739356[/TD]
[TD]R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4500, align: right"]12.97422059[/TD]
[TD]R81_Imperial_Era_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]13.34426843[/TD]
[TD]R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]13.35137821[/TD]
[TD]R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3600, align: right"]13.41112225[/TD]
[TD]R66_Imperial_Era_ANAS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3600, align: right"]13.41316890[/TD]
[TD]R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3600, align: right"]13.42639937[/TD]
[TD]R34_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3200, align: right"]13.52872130[/TD]
[TD]R1543_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2D00, align: right"]13.68587593[/TD]
[TD]R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2900, align: right"]13.80433990[/TD]
[TD]R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2300, align: right"]13.95713438[/TD]
[TD]R123_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2100, align: right"]14.02574775[/TD]
[TD]R1545_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2000, align: right"]14.05658920[/TD]
[TD]R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


You can do all the others the same way and see if there are differences, but I doubt they'll be really different.

 

[cybernautic]

I only brought up what the papers concluded in reference to the question of the OP. I don't see how Myceneans are relevant here.

The Sarno paper doesn't conclude exactly that Mainland Greece is closer to all of Balkans than to Southern Italy

The Balkanians truly close to Mainland Greece are the ones sharing an immediate geographical border with Greece
the further you move away from these borders into Inland Balkans the less similar do the people become to Greeks

 

[iopk]

Greetings to the community!

What would be the most accurate/reliable ancestry DNA test to take?

I am Greek and having read all six pages of this fascinating threat, it peaked my interest in finding out more about it.

 

[peloponnesian]

Greetings to the community!

What would be the most accurate/reliable ancestry DNA test to take?

23andMe is the most accurate, but not without its own problems (for example, assigning lots of Italian ancestry to Greeks). AncestryDNA is also decent, especially since they added their Aegean category. Where in Greece are you from?

 

[iopk]

Thanks for the info, Peloponnesian.

Father: Mani/Megara, Mother: Mani/Thiva

 

[Palermo Trapani]

23andMe is the most accurate, but not without its own problems (for example, assigning lots of Italian ancestry to Greeks). AncestryDNA is also decent, especially since they added their Aegean category. Where in Greece are you from?

I think 23 and Me vs. Ancestry in terms of accuracy is relative to which population they are trying to assign admixture/ethnic estimates. For me Ancestry is more accurate than 23andMe. 23 and Me does give you more comprehensive information vs. Ancestry (i.e. Y and mtdna haplogroups, Neanderthal admixture and Health reports). So I think they both are worth getting.

just my view. Cheers.