Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, N.Levant & S. Caucasus

[kingdavid]

fwiw
https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/de...pWGmXHJQgw-lBBY2MiJg22HcuUW1ftaB1_9x8XTe6rk3E

nice work of carlos

the ART015 the e1b-L795 sample is at the same date of this r1b ( that everyone talk about )
ART015.A 4557 25 cal BCE 3363-3137 cal BCE 3369-3110 Arslantepethat is-late chl :cool-v:


p.s
i didn't like the fact that the researchers from germany
ignore the e1b1b1 in this pdf
yes 2 ( same number as the T by the way ) is not high but is worth mention
especially since e-L795 was found in armenia middle late bronze age remains
to me it look like expansion from levant to the north anatolia /armenia

 

[Angela]

nice work of carlos

the ART015 the e1b-L795 sample is at the same date of this r1b ( that everyone talk about )
ART015.A 4557 25 cal BCE 3363-3137 cal BCE 3369-3110 Arslantepethat is-late chl :cool-v:


p.s
i didn't like the fact that the researchers from germany
ignore the e1b1b1 in this pdf
yes 2 ( same number as the T by the way ) is not high but is worth mention
especially since e-L795 was found in armenia middle late bronze age remains
to me it look like expansion from levant to the north anatolia /armenia

I agree, and it's not my only issue with the paper.

 

[Olympus Mons]

fwiw
https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/de...pWGmXHJQgw-lBBY2MiJg22HcuUW1ftaB1_9x8XTe6rk3E

Bicicleur ... its a good example why so many people get at times exasperated with Carlos Quiles, even consider him lacking intelligence. He correctly notices that the paper forgets that R1b V1636 is:

“R1b-V1636 was found before in Khvalynsk and in Khvalynsk-related Progress 2, and later in Yamnaya from the Caucasus.”

But instead of thinking , well if V1636, 4000 BC – 3000BC are found at steppe and we have an Anatolian at 3200BC without any steppe, than we need to at least say that is not at all likely that V1636 came from the steppe to Eastern Anatolia but most likely the other way around… Well, carlos states:

“2. The fact that it has no Steppe ancestry shows how gene flows were easily diluted among a demographically dense Near Eastern population within a few generations.”

Dear lord!. - If this can be used as an argument... then all Dna data is irrelevant, because leaps of 800 years is all around the papers published.

Really, Some of us can state stuff like that here, but someone who does this thinking process on his blog that is supposed to be an analytical stance on published papers.... makes little sense, indeed.

 

[halfalp]

Bicicleur ... its a good example why so many people get at times exasperated with Carlos Quiles, even consider him lacking intelligence. He correctly notices that the paper forgets that R1b V1636 is:



But instead of thinking , well if V1636, 4000 BC – 3000BC are found at steppe and we have an Anatolian at 3200BC without any steppe, than we need to at least say that is not at all likely that V1636 came from the steppe to Eastern Anatolia but most likely the other way around… Well, carlos states:




Dear lord!. - If this can be used as an argument... then all Dna data is irrelevant, because leaps of 800 years is all around the papers published.

Really, Some of us can state stuff like that here, but someone who does this thinking process on his blog that is supposed to be an analytical stance on published papers.... makes little sense, indeed.

You argument dont match because the Progress individuals have nothing of ancestry from this younger Anatolian individual neither. What we could argue with is that wherever it is found, V1636 shows CHG ancestry, wich do not give you it's origin, because of how old this ancestry is. It's not a coincidence if V1636 are both found in North Caucasus and South of it, it means there was a path, but it's more likely that V1636 for most of it's story was more shifted towards CHG, than EHG population while living in North Caucasus prior to the expansion of the Repin culture. It's not a coincidence neither that before the Bronze Age R1b wasn't found anywhere in the Middle-East, not even V88, because what we thought before for years, base on modern distribution was biased.

It's the exact same story with J1 in eastern europe being 100% EHG, but we constantly need to say it again.

 

[Olympus Mons]

I agree with the paper conclusions.
Because basically it says…. “we still don’t know”. It was obvious they were trying to figure the archaeological relevant Levant and eastern Anatolia bronze age (because those were the samples they had) and are honest enough to say “still couldn’t” instead of, like what we have seen in the past, making a fitting narrative.


Because overall they conclude:

1. They do mention that they see two genetics events. The Neolithic one of which to be fair they do have very little samples, but archaeology makes it obvious, hence the arrival of Shulaveri , etc, - they do not have much to say about it, and south Caucasus is still, a part from Mesopotamia, the most obscure parcel in the region.

1. The second genetic event and the one they do have many samples from (4000BC-3000BC), is the Early bronze age. Again, fully in alignment with archaeology as well. It is nice they confess they couldn’t really figure it out, as also archaeology can’t. The existence and exchanges say between Kura Araxes and Uruk is difficult to figure out. The passage between UBAID and Uruk, still not at all diagnosed. But both (KA and URUK) expanded well and beyond. And there was a people/genetic force (broadly Mesopotamia area) that it remains still unexampled. And nobody cant say they didn’t play a role.

1. Largely the paper seems to follow archaeological questions and not just flow with whatever samples pop up. Its like archaeogenetic (or MPI SHH) figure out that they first need to answer questions in the realm of past archaeological questions and not act as if those question never existed or had a reason to exist in the first place.

 

[Anfänger]

R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

 

[halfalp]

R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

I think a few unpublished samples of Khvalynsk were labeled P297 but V1636 instead, not sure. I think it's linked with David Anthony works.

 

[Olympus Mons]

R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

Hi, Carlos Quiles says so ... and I remember reading that refined and updated analysis in one Khav and one Yam turn out to be V1636.

Its his argument that bothers me - We do have Archaeology and now aDna with large movements from South to North Caucasus... So, lots of Iran and CHG into north Caucasus. Its just that his argument makes everything valid and invalid. Which in the end might be possible... but then all our, and his!, discussion and arguments are irrelevant. Everything is possible.

I sure need to stress everytime: We have south Caucasus Mtdna (H2, H15, I1 and now a U7 and even H13). Just go to Mathieson, or Wang et al supplements and look for those Haplos. apart from U7 (seen in Maykop and Iran) you find the others in khav, progress, Yamnaya, , Alexandria...

 

[Angela]

R1b-V1636 in Yamnaya and Khvalynsk ? Are there new samples ? The only R1b-V1636 I know of is from Eneolithic Piedmont and the new Arlanstepe R1b-V1636.

If you get to the bottom of it let me know.

I can't remember having seen this much over-interpretation and clutching at straws in years.

Also, why don't people look at the graphics in the Haber paper?

There was certainly no steppe intrusion around the area of modern Beirut at the period of interest.

It looks highly unlikely to me given the present state of the evidence that the Anatolian languages came to Anatolia from the steppe by going south through the Caucasus.

Maybe they'll find evidence of a route through the Balkans. If they do, great. It won't change the fact that the genomic influence from the steppe was miniscule, and the same is probably true of any steppe which arrived with the Mitanni.

 

[Olympus Mons]

I sure need to stress everytime: We have south Caucasus Mtdna (H2, H15, I1 and now a U7 and even H13). Just go to Mathieson, or Wang et al supplements and look for those Haplos. apart from U7 (seen in Maykop and Iran) you find the others in khav, progress, Yamnaya, , Alexandria...

If one bothers to follow this summary of what we have for Mtdna from Mathieson, Wang, Lazaridis, etc... Just check the countries and dating.
​

[TABLE="width: 869"]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I5407[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9800[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8300-7400 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Lepenski Vir[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Serbia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I4081[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9335[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7580-7190 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Ostrovul Corbului[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Romania[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1b1a[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H13,H13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0698_published[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7900[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6000-5900 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Yabalkovo[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]G2a2a1a2a[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H,H,H,H,H,H2a,H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]XXXX[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7700[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5700BC[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Aratashen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Armenia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H15a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]XXXX[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7700[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5700BC[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Aratashen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Armenia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2 + 152[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]XXXX[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7700[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5700BC[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Aratashen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Armenia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]I1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]XXXX[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7600[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5600BC[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Mentesh Tepe[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Azerbaijan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]…[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]U7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]XXXX[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7300[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5300BC[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Polutepe[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Azerbaijan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]…[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I1634[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6145[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4330-4060 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Areni 1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Armenia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]L1a1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6100[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4233-4047[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Eneolithic steppe[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1b1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I6561[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5960[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4045-3974 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Alexandria[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1a1a1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2a1a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I1674[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5836[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3972-3800 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Seh Gabi[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Iran[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]G1a[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]I1c[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I1665[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5826[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3956-3796 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Iran_Seh_Gabi_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Iran[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]U7a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3972-3800[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Iran_Chalcolithic[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Seh Gabi[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Iran[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]I1c[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3634-3377[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Steppe Maykop[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3619-3369[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Steppe Maykop[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]U7b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0370[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4950[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3300-2700 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Ishkinovka I, Eastern Orenburg, Pre-Ural steppe, Samara[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1b1a1a2a2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H13a1a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I3141[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4950[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3300-2700 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Shevchenko, OAE-2003[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H15b1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3336-3105[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Steppe Maykop[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Q1a2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]U7b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0441[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4766[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3010-2622 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Kurmanaevka III, Buzuluk, Samara[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0374[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4350[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2800-2000 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Nikolaevka III, Samara River, Samara[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1b1a1a2a2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H13a1a,H13a1a,H13a1a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2863-2581[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]North Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1b1a2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H13a1a2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0839_published[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4282[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2457-2206 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Galeria da Cisterna, Almonda[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Portugal[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H3,H2a,H2a2a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I5020[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4282[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2458-2206 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Landau an der Isar[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Germany[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2a1e[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I7203[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4250[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2800-1800 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Prague 5, Jinonice, Butovick?Street[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Czech Republic[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2a2a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I6537[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4117[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2291-2042 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Racibórz-Stara Wieś[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Poland[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1b1a1a2a1a[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]I1a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I2604[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4070[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2210-2030 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Barton Stacey, Hampshire[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Great Britain[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2a3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0070[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2400-1700 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Lassithi, Crete[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]J2a1d[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H13a1a[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0234[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3675[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1850-1600 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Rozhdestveno I, Samara Steppes, Samara[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]I1a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0431_published[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3675[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1850-1600 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Spiridonovka II, Samara River, Samara[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I4331[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3526[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1631-1521 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Veliki Vanik[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Croatia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]J2b2a[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]I1a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I5470[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3485[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1620-1450 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Leith, Merrilees Close, City of Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Great Britain[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H15a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I2656_d[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3080[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1279-980 calBCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Scotland, Longniddry, Grainfoot[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Great Britain[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]R[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H2a2a2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]I0576[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2650[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]700 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Arzan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]..[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]H15b1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1850-1600 BCE[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Srubnaya[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Rozhdestveno I, Samara Steppes, Samara[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]Russia[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]I1a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Olympus Mons]

My previous post, is because sometimes people forget the samples that are used in some sounding names are very few. Iran Chal… is usually the five from Seth gabi.
Even the PCA from Skourtanioti from MPI-SHH, makes its easy to forget that the Mentesh tepe is much more contemporaneous with Iran_Neolithic more than Iran_Chalcolithic whose samples used in this studies are Seth Gabi from 700 years to 1200 years after the disappearing of the People of Mentesh. So,

a.Mtdna from Samples from South_caucasus_LN are next seem 1500 years later, the Armenia (Aratashen) ones in the eneolithic steppe and the Yamnaya (H2,H15, I1 and H13), and the Azerbaijan ones in Maykop and Iran Chalc ( mostly the U7). But they are much older.

b. shouldn’t pass unnoticed that both H2 and H13 in the samples show up earlier and firstly in Balkans (weird)

c. Later show up in bell beakers…

 

[Regio X]

I wonder if one of those G's is the Ashkenazi G clade, or Sephardi for that matter.

Context is going to be important here. Were they all found in definitely "local", Canaanite graves?

I apologize but there are actually 11 G Y-DNA Haplogroups. My eyes are not what they use to be. I don't know if this will help but

G=1
G1=1
G2a2b1a=3
G2a2b1=3
G2a=1
G2a2=1
G2ab1=1

Got a zoom meeting with a colleague to go to but if there is anything else that you need that I can add clarification, please let me know

Buona Serrata, PT

Thanks.

Do you know how much G2a2 is in the area today? I know that in the Levant as a whole it's not very frequent, is it?

Do you think they support the contention of the authors of a change in the Iron Age?

The Ashkenazi G clade is the G2b1-M377 (~7% among them), and it was not listed by Palermo. I guess the oldest ancient G2b thus far, from 9500-9000 ybp, was found in Western Iran. G2b would be present even among Pashtuns at a rate of ~6%. The frequency among Jews from Israel would be ~10%.

As for G2a frequencies, you can find some in this page, including Levantines'. Perhaps it's not updated, anyway, it's a reference. The highest frequencies are found in Caucasus, as you know, and in two groups from Kazakhstan.
I thought curious that the frequency provided for NE Italy in that page, 11.3%, roughly corresponds to the one informed by 23andMe for the same region, 12%, possibly based on their own database. Also more or less in line with Ethnopedia, which presents especially Verona province as a G hotspot.

The G-M201 SNP diversity would peak in Armenia according to Rootsi et al. 2012, but G1 diversity apparently peaks in Iran. Hovhannisyan et al. 2014 also suggested an important spot of STR diversity in the Levant (Wow! I wouldn't guess such R1b1a2 diversity in Middle East, btw), but the paper seems to support Rootsi's conclusions.

Rootsi:
"We attempted to localize the potential geographic origin of haplogroup G-M201 by considering those locations containing both G1-M285- and G2-P287-related lineages as well as the co-occurrence of high sub-haplogroup diversity."
(...)
"In the ten remaining populations, haplogroup diversity spanned from a low of 0.21 in Adyghes, to highs of 0.88 in Azeris (Iran) and 0.89 in eastern Anatolia and 0.90 in Armenia. We estimate that the geographic origin of hg G plausibly locates somewhere nearby eastern Anatolia, Armenia or western Iran."

Hovhannisyan:
"At the same time, the Armenian sample from the central region of the Armenian Highland has a comparable value of haplotype diversity (74.5%) with that of the Near Eastern populations of Syria (88.6%) and Palestine (79.3%) (see Additional file 5). Thus, our results support the recently published data on the origin of this haplogroup in the neighboring areas of eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and Western Iran [51]."
(...)
"The constructed median-joining network within the haplogroup G (Figure 7) reveals the highest level of scattering of central Armenian haplotypes as compared to various neighboring populations (Palestinians, Cherkessians, Iranians), which is expected under the assumption of the local origin of this lineage."

Ancient DNA seems to support a G arrival to South Levant in Iron Age. At least so far.

 

[Angela]

The Ashkenazi G clade is the G2b1-M377 (~7% among them), and it was not listed by Palermo. I guess the oldest ancient G2b thus far, from 9500-9000 ybp, was found in Western Iran. G2b would be present even among Pashtuns at a rate of ~6%. The frequency among Jews from Israel would be ~10%.

As for G2a frequencies, you can find some in this page, including Levantines'. Perhaps it's not updated, anyway, it's a reference. The highest frequencies are found in Caucasus, as you know, and in two groups from Kazakhstan.
I thought curious that the frequency provided for NE Italy in that page, 11.3%, roughly corresponds to the one informed by 23andMe for the same region, 12%, possibly based on their own database. Also more or less in line with Ethnopedia, which presents especially Verona province as a G hotspot.

The G-M201 SNP diversity would peak in Armenia according to Rootsi et al. 2012, but G1 diversity apparently peaks in Iran. Hovhannisyan et al. 2014 also suggested an important spot of STR diversity in the Levant (Wow! I wouldn't guess such R1b1a2 diversity in Middle East, btw), but the paper seems to support Rootsi's conclusions.

Rootsi:
"We attempted to localize the potential geographic origin of haplogroup G-M201 by considering those locations containing both G1-M285- and G2-P287-related lineages as well as the co-occurrence of high sub-haplogroup diversity."
(...)
"In the ten remaining populations, haplogroup diversity spanned from a low of 0.21 in Adyghes, to highs of 0.88 in Azeris (Iran) and 0.89 in eastern Anatolia and 0.90 in Armenia. We estimate that the geographic origin of hg G plausibly locates somewhere nearby eastern Anatolia, Armenia or western Iran."

Hovhannisyan:
"At the same time, the Armenian sample from the central region of the Armenian Highland has a comparable value of haplotype diversity (74.5%) with that of the Near Eastern populations of Syria (88.6%) and Palestine (79.3%) (see Additional file 5). Thus, our results support the recently published data on the origin of this haplogroup in the neighboring areas of eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and Western Iran [51]."
(...)
"The constructed median-joining network within the haplogroup G (Figure 7) reveals the highest level of scattering of central Armenian haplotypes as compared to various neighboring populations (Palestinians, Cherkessians, Iranians), which is expected under the assumption of the local origin of this lineage."

Ancient DNA seems to support a G arrival to South Levant in Iron Age. At least so far.

So, the "Jewish" clade perhaps Iranic in origin, like their R1a? I wonder how much of it the Iraqi and Iranian Jews have? They're probably driving up the numbers in Israel.

So, as always, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and western Iran, but spreading at different times, clearly, given all the G2a among the early Anatolian farmers.

Then, probably, dribbles, and then this big push in the Bronze Age.

I looked at Greece and there's little info and what there is is in the low digits and not broken out, although there's 4% of the M406 version in the Sesklo area of Thessaly near where there are Mycenaean graves. What clade were the Mycenaeans?

They didn't break down Crete. I remember there was a lot of G2a there.

Well, the following isn't very helpful.
"A 2003 study of Italy had found 11.8% of 51 samples in Sicily; 8.1% of 37 samples in Calabria...and 10% of 50 samples in north central Italy were G."

They didn't bother to add the Grugni et al data:
[TABLE="width: 1279"]
[TR]
[TD]Haplogroup[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]TOTAL SAMPLE[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]North Italy[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Central Italy[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]South Italy[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Bergamo Valleys[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Bergamo Plain[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Tortona- Voghera[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Borbera Valley[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Volterra[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Apulia[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Grecìa Salentina[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Ionian Calabria[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Tyrrhenian Calabria[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]817[/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]290[/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]113[/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]414[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]78[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]79[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]85[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]113[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]102[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]93[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]73[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]64[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 1279"]
[TR]
[TD]G-M201(xP15)[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P287*[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P15*[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P16[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-M547*[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P303*[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-L497[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]3.2[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]4.5[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7.0[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]12.9[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7.1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-U1*[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-M527[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2.9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-M406*[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]1.9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2.9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4.1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-Page19[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-L91[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hg-G[/TD]
[TD]69[/TD]
[TD]8.4[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]6.6[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]13.3[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]8.5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.6[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]6.3[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]15.3[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]13.3[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]11.8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]5.4[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]12.3[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]10.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[halfalp]

indeed
the obsession with the steppe is amazing
like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....

I mean... are you not " obsessed " with finding any y-dna E in all new papers? Dont be so prompt to judge other people for what they are interested into. We all are reasoning the same way for the most part.

 

[halfalp]

Wait, sample ALX002 is labeled from Leila-Tepe Culture and is y-dna G1!!! Isn't it the first instance of prehistoric G1 ever? And from Leila-Tepe. Making this culture quite even more interesting now.

 

[Riverman]

The Syrian samples have a significant proportion of E1b, so I don't think anything being decided about the Proto-Afro-Asiatic question. The single best candidate seems to be still a people related to Natufians, coming originally from North East Africa/Egypt and/or the bordering Levante/Southern Near East. If the Ebla samples represent Afro-Asiatics with Caucasian/Mesopotamian influx, this fits perfectly. Of course the direction of the language transmission remains open, but looking at other regions of Afro-Asiatic speech, anything else seems to make less sense.

 

[Anfänger]

I couldn't find anything about R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk or Yamnaya. David Anthony doesn't mention R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk in a recent book about early Indo-european cultures, but maybe by now they have more precise subclades for Khvalynsk and they will be published later this year. Usually Carlos gives links for his statements about Y-DNA but not for those mentioned.
So for now confirmed R1b-V1636 are Arslantepe(Turkey),Eneolithic Piedmont(North Caucasus) and Kura-Araxes(Armenia).

Wait, sample ALX002 is labeled from Leila-Tepe Culture and is y-dna G1!!! Isn't it the first instance of prehistoric G1 ever? And from Leila-Tepe. Making this culture quite even more interesting now.

Indeed, this is one model for ALX002(3776-3661calBCE) from modern Azerbaijan:

The G-M201 SNP diversity would peak in Armenia according to Rootsi et al. 2012, but G1 diversity apparently peaks in Iran. Hovhannisyan et al. 2014 also suggested an important spot of STR diversity in the Levant (Wow! I wouldn't guess such R1b1a2 diversity in Middle East, btw), but the paper seems to support Rootsi's conclusions.

He is G1 and his autosomal DNA is very Iran_C. Maybe his ancestors were from Northern Iran/Mesopotamia/Eastern Anatolia. In all of my models all samples from this paper pick up huge chunks of this Iran_Hajji_Firuz_C-like ancestry but it arrived in different waves to different places and different times.

 

[Anfänger]

This is what the paper says about the Population Turnover in the Northern Levant:

Population and Territorial State Dynamics in the Northern Levant
In contrast to the rest of Anatolia, the Northern Levant stands out as a region of the Near East with traceable post-Neolithic changes in the genetic structure. We found that the gene pools at Ebla and Alalakh can only be explained by more complex models that require additional contributions both from the Caucasus and Southern Levant. The inclusion of a source related to the Caucasus in our proposed model raises the question whether this turnover could be linked to the expansion of the Transcaucasian Kura-Araxes material culture to the Levant. This expansion is recorded in the region of the Northern Levant ca. 2800 BCE and could be associated with the movement/ migration of people from Eastern Anatolia and the Southern Caucasian highlands (Greenberg and Palumbi, 2015; Greenberg et al., 2014). However, our results do not support this scenario for a number of reasons: (1) we do not find any substantial increase of Caucasus-related ancestry in the populations of the primary expansion area of Kura-Araxes (e.g., Eastern Anatolia), (2) populations from the highlands of the Southern Caucasus— including individuals from a Kura-Araxes context (‘‘L.Caucasu- s_EBA’’)—as secondary source populations also fail, and (3) so do models with Arslantepe from Eastern Anatolia, a population located mid-way along the proposed expansion route from the Southern Caucasus to the Northern Levant.
Consequently, these interpretative caveats call for consideration of alternative historical scenarios, including scenarios of multiple gene-flow events that could have taken place in the intervening two millennia between the Tell Kurdu population and those of Bronze Age Ebla and Alalakh. However, written sources, archaeological, and paleoclimatic evidence suggest that a narrower time period—the end of the EBA—had been very critical with respect to political tensions and population mobility. It was during this period, for example, that Ebla was destroyed twice and reestablished at the beginning of MBA. There are extensive textual references from the end of the EBA through the LBA referring to groups of people arriving into the area of the Amuq Valley. Although these groups were named, likely based on designations (e.g., Amorites, Hurrians), the formative context of their (cultural) identity and their geographic origins remain debated. One recent hypothesis (Weiss, 2014, 2017; Akar and Kara, 2020) associates the arrival of these groups with climate-forced population movement during the ‘‘4.2k BP event,’’ a Mega Drought that led to the abandonment of the entire Khabur river valley in Northern Mesopotamia and the search of nearby habitable areas.
Taking the above into consideration, we suggest that the ancestries we inferred for Alalakh and Ebla might best describe the genetic make-up of the EBA populations of unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. During the following MBA and LBA, we find no evidence of genetic disruption, even though shifts in territorial control dynamics between kingdoms/empires affected Ebla’s and Alalakh’s socio-cultural development (see STAR Methods).
Nevertheless, the case of the Alalakh individual with likely Central Asian origin is a finding that can be interpreted within the context of nascent internationalism of the Middle and Late Bronze Age Eastern Mediterranean societies. It calls for future research on the various societal features of this phenomenon and how these are reflected on the individual life histories.

 

[Riverman]

The most parsimonious interpretation would be that the Caucasian influence, like we see it in Hurrians, being associated with the increased Caucasian-Iranian ancestry and the Semitic with Natufian-Levantine.

 

[halfalp]

I couldn't find anything about R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk or Yamnaya. David Anthony doesn't mention R1b-V1636 in Khvalynsk in a recent book about early Indo-european cultures, but maybe by now they have more precise subclades for Khvalynsk and they will be published later this year. Usually Carlos gives links for his statements about Y-DNA but not for those mentioned.
So for now confirmed R1b-V1636 are Arslantepe(Turkey),Eneolithic Piedmont(North Caucasus) and Kura-Araxes(Armenia).



Indeed, this is one model for ALX002(3776-3661calBCE) from modern Azerbaijan:

View attachment 12138



He is G1 and his autosomal DNA is very Iran_C. Maybe his ancestors were from Northern Iran/Mesopotamia/Eastern Anatolia. In all of my models all samples from this paper pick up huge chunks of this Iran_Hajji_Firuz_C-like ancestry but it arrived in different waves to different places and different times.

I could be completely off, but i know new samples from Khvalynsk were already leaked. With some R1b,R1a,J1 and others.