GedM… VOL001 # XY8696756
… I tested the VOL001 file with MTA:
Nice Salento
I take this sample in Deep Dive
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GedM… VOL001 # XY8696756
… I tested the VOL001 file with MTA:
Distance to: | MyK12bAngela |
---|---|
5.99228671 | MAS001 |
8.20780726 | ETR007 |
9.23015168 | CSN005 |
10.93490283 | CSN009 |
12.92072753 | VET001 |
12.93179029 | CAM002 |
13.07593591 | TAQ022 |
13.10074425 | ETR003 |
13.26339700 | TAQ009 |
13.31483008 | CSN008 |
13.31641844 | TAQ011 |
13.42518156 | CSN010 |
13.63582781 | POP001 |
14.05850632 | TAQ020 |
14.36174084 | TAQ006 |
14.78497886 | VOL001 |
14.90071810 | CSN002 |
15.35351426 | MAS004 |
15.66113661 | VEN008 |
16.06000000 | CSN006 |
16.27143202 | VEN017 |
16.29441929 | VEN001 |
16.63951622 | ETR010 |
16.71727849 | CSN013 |
16.83423892 | CSN001 |
Distance to: | Angela |
---|---|
5.81056796 | MAS001 |
6.90753212 | ETR007 |
7.24960689 | CSN005 |
9.68648027 | CSN010 |
10.38310647 | VET001 |
11.50081736 | TAQ011 |
11.53707069 | CSN009 |
11.79665207 | VEN008 |
11.81375046 | CAM002 |
12.15654967 | VOL001 |
12.29536905 | TAQ022 |
12.34735194 | CSN013 |
12.56959824 | CSN006 |
12.87200062 | TAQ009 |
12.91685720 | TAQ006 |
12.98529553 | CSN008 |
13.03501055 | VEN010 |
13.04342746 | VEN009 |
13.06786899 | TAQ016 |
13.25040377 | ETR003 |
13.28910456 | TAQ015 |
13.33354042 | POP001 |
13.58520887 | TAQ013 |
13.70455034 | TAQ002 |
13.88439412 | CAM001 |
Target: Angela Distance: 1.8522% / 1.85218365 | ADC: 0.25x RC | |
---|---|
34.1 | ETR007 |
25.8 | MAS001 |
23.1 | CSN005 |
11.4 | CAM002 |
5.6 | CSN010 |
Yes, looks promising. But I do wonder about the content of the paper, because obviously there should have been earlier shifts, latest with the MBA-LBA and Mycenaeans, rather than the LBA-EIA. What we really need is the archaeological context and the haplogroups. I'm still somewhat sceptical though, because one of the big issues with the Urnfielders is, well, that they cremated and were buried in urns. Not ideal for doing an ancient DNA analysis. Also, anything before 1.200 BC might be too early and the common definition for Greece seems to be:
https://www.worldhistory.org/Mycenaean_Civilization/
So that's indeed about Mycenaeans I guess.
Indeed. Thanks for sharing, there is also this
The Punic Mediterranean - a new ancient DNA perspective
Content:
Towards the end of the 6th century BCE, the former colony Carthage in present-day Tunisia emerged as a hegemonial power in the Western Mediterranean. While keeping the Phoenician language as well as many aspects of cultural practices, a new set of "Punic" customs spread rapidly from the Northwest African coast throughout the Western Mediterranean, including coastal sites in Iberia, Ibiza, Sicily and Sardinia. In this study we produced novel ancient DNA evidence from human remains buried in Western Mediterranean Punic necropoli. So far, ancient DNA data from Punic sites has been sporadic, and here we generated genome-wide ancient DNA as well as new Radio Carbon dates to fill this gap. Together, this new data allowed us to probe whether cultural links to North Africa are also accompanied by North African genetic ancestry. Moreover, we studied putative genetic connections to the Levant and Aegan. Finally, we investigated the complex interaction with local populations.
https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa2021/repository/preview.php?Abstract=2185
Thanks so much, Jovialis. My father would be so happy.
My K1b results using my coordinates from Dodecadś project participant page:
Distance to: MyK12bAngela 5.99228671 MAS001 8.20780726 ETR007 9.23015168 CSN005 10.93490283 CSN009 12.92072753 VET001 12.93179029 CAM002 13.07593591 TAQ022 13.10074425 ETR003 13.26339700 TAQ009 13.31483008 CSN008 13.31641844 TAQ011 13.42518156 CSN010 13.63582781 POP001 14.05850632 TAQ020 14.36174084 TAQ006 14.78497886 VOL001 14.90071810 CSN002 15.35351426 MAS004 15.66113661 VEN008 16.06000000 CSN006 16.27143202 VEN017 16.29441929 VEN001 16.63951622 ETR010 16.71727849 CSN013 16.83423892 CSN001
If MAS is Massa (Province of Massa Carrara), it makes sense it would be the closest as that is the province of my birth, although further inland on the Magra.
In the 2 way match, itś mostly MAS, with smaller percentages of one of the CAM samples.
More likely Massa Marittima or Marsiliana in the province of Grosseto, southern Tuscany.
Thatś fine too. Despite the fact that all of his ancestry came from the Apennines in Emilia, he considered himself a Tuscan and a Ligurian, and most importantly, a descendant of the Latins and the Etruscans. He´d be over the moon to know it turned out to be true to a large degree.
angela can we
say officlaily herodotus was wrong ?
and etruscan don't trace there origins to immigrants from anatolia specifically lydia
Thatś fine too. Despite the fact that all of his ancestry came from the Apennines in Emilia, he considered himself a Tuscan and a Ligurian, and most importantly, a descendant of the Latins and the Etruscans. He´d be over the moon to know it turned out to be true to a large degree.
Makes sense, so Myceneans came no earlier to Greece than 1600-1500 b.c. Interesting.
Distance to: | Duarte3 |
---|---|
6.41889399 | VOL001 |
6.53616095 | VET001 |
6.63435001 | CSN013 |
6.78457810 | CSN006 |
6.81782957 | TAQ015 |
6.93881114 | TAQ016 |
7.11281941 | TAQ008 |
7.27219362 | ETR005 |
7.27341735 | TAQ002 |
7.42567169 | TAQ013 |
7.46790466 | TAQ004 |
7.69699292 | PRZ001 |
7.70831369 | TAQ001 |
7.70907906 | CSN009 |
7.97263445 | CAM001 |
8.00122491 | CSN001 |
8.05093162 | TAQ006 |
8.19926216 | VEU001 |
8.33363666 | TAQ018 |
8.36367742 | CSN003 |
8.48399670 | CAM003 |
8.51741745 | CSN010 |
8.55375356 | TAQ024 |
8.63536913 | VET003_4 |
8.71873844 | TAQ017 |
Distance to: | Duarte2 |
---|---|
7.11523014 | VOL001 |
7.33978883 | CSN010 |
7.48911877 | VET001 |
7.88628556 | TAQ002 |
7.93573563 | CSN013 |
7.98440981 | TAQ016 |
7.99661804 | TAQ004 |
8.00058123 | TAQ008 |
8.00884511 | CSN006 |
8.07916456 | TAQ015 |
8.20894634 | PRZ001 |
8.43333860 | CAM001 |
8.50301711 | TAQ013 |
8.52072767 | CSN009 |
8.56320034 | TAQ001 |
8.75379918 | PRZ002 |
8.91038159 | ETR005 |
8.96763068 | CSN005 |
9.00017222 | CAM003 |
9.07093159 | CSN003 |
9.14476353 | CSN001 |
9.29287899 | VEU001 |
9.31362443 | TAQ006 |
9.47892926 | VET003_4 |
9.54571108 | TAQ018 |
Distance to: | Duarte1 |
---|---|
6.43488928 | VOL001 |
6.53726242 | VET001 |
6.64021084 | CSN013 |
6.83216657 | CSN006 |
6.90102891 | TAQ015 |
6.98184073 | TAQ016 |
7.12718738 | TAQ008 |
7.29214646 | TAQ002 |
7.39928375 | ETR005 |
7.48193825 | TAQ004 |
7.49626574 | TAQ013 |
7.65470444 | CSN009 |
7.73500485 | PRZ001 |
7.75909144 | TAQ001 |
8.00181854 | CAM001 |
8.07001239 | TAQ006 |
8.07222398 | CSN001 |
8.29057899 | VEU001 |
8.39598714 | CSN010 |
8.43434052 | CSN003 |
8.43639141 | TAQ018 |
8.51404722 | CAM003 |
8.63736650 | TAQ024 |
8.72126138 | VET003_4 |
8.81017593 | TAQ017 |
Filename | Calculator | Genotype ratio |
Duarte1.csv | Dodecad Globe 13 | 96,29% |
Duarte2.csv | Dodecad Globe 13 | 39,68% |
Duarte3.txt | Dodecad Globe 13 | 97,69% |
I was wrong on the origins of the etruscan. Adna clearly now demonstrate that Etruscans were a italian copper age population that lived from the early bronze age onward side by side with the incoming italian bell beaker R1b folks. My bet is etruscans are basically a Remedello/Rinaldone kind of population ( the range of these 2 cultures perfectly overlaps the extention of the etruscan regions from the central alps to Latium.
Thanks to ancient dna we have the first historical insight on a EEF language likely of cardial origin. A big surprise ahead...stay tuned.
As an italian needless to say that this is the perfect example of the bright side of being wrong .
In light of a likely authoctonous origins of the etruscan language what to make of the Woundhuzein's thesis now?
Among the explanations we can single out these options:
etruscan was heavily influenced by an IE anatolian language
PIE was influenced by an EEF language at the time of the Cucuteni and Sredni Stog interaction period ( Sredni Stog had possibly something like 30% EEF) let's not forget that IE are overpacked with EEF cultural traits in every aspect: metallurgy agropastoralism, burial methods and religion
etruscan and IE share the same west eurasian linguistic roots and so they can have the same father or possibly the same grand father
Fact that PIE could cluster with etruscan point to a direction toward WHG as the vector of most of PIE inside the EHG.
In light of a likely authoctonous origins of the etruscan language what to make of the Woundhuzein's thesis now?
Among the explanations we can single out these options:
etruscan was heavily influenced by an IE anatolian language
An option so far not mentioned being that Etruscans are local, but related elements spread during the transitional period (1.200-1.100 +/- 200 years) also to the East Mediterranean with the Sea People. The Etruscan language could be related to Eteocypriot which being attested from about 1.100 BC. In later times we have Grey Ware in Greece and Western Anatolia, with late LBA Grey Ware concentrated around Troy and in Crete, with obvious Italian connections and finds. There were also Mycenaean era settlements from Greece-Islands-Anatolia in Italia and for sure cultural ties and intensified networks. So the Etruscans could have been influenced by Anatolians even without ever really moving out as a people, but only their relatives did and established a pan-Mediterranean network connecting Greece, the Islands and Anatolia in subsequent centuries.
The one you mention is a forum option, for people who don't know how to spend their time, but not in an academic level study. Anatolian influences in Etruria arrived between the end of the Orientalizing and the beginning of the Archaic, that is, hundreds of years after the birth of Etruscan civilization.
Finally, there is a revival of Grey Ware in northern Greece during Late Helladic IIIC, which then continues into the Early Iron Age at sites such as Kastanas (Jung 2002) and Toumba Thessaloniki. For the last two issues see the contributions by R. Jung and S. Jimatzidis on this web-site. To make the picture complete, one should also mention the existence of grey ware in the Protogeometric period, as exemplified at Lefkandi.
The Late Bronze Age islands seem to be less interested in grey wares, and one has to differentiate when referring to the Cyclades, Crete, northeast Aegean or southeast Aegean. In the Cyclades grey ware occurs only in a few cases on Keos in Late Helladic I and Late Helladic II contexts (Cummer ? Schofield 1984, 47, 95), while it seems to be absent at other sites. Crete, on the contrary, offers a whole range of Late Bronze Age Grey Wares, some of which likewise betray an Italian origin, or at least inspiration. For more detail see the contribution by L. Girella on this web-site. The northeast Aegean islands will be dealt with together with Anatolian finds, but the southeast Aegean islands, such as Kos, Psara and Rhodes, show yet another type of Late Bronze Age Grey Wares, covering largely Late Helladic IIIA and IIIB. They are a mixture of local elements, Anatolian influences and Mycenaean shapes (Benzi 1996; Girella 2005).
We probably see, based on the samples, when they arrived first. The influence I'm speaking about with Grey Ware and reciprocal exchange between Italia and the Eastern Mediterranean was about 1.200-1.100 BC.
Does anyone know the site and results from Luca Girella? This is him:
This is one of the relevant papers:
Nothing you have posted brings any evidence in favor of old discredited theories. At most, it's about contacts. For your information in Etruria between 1200 and 100 BC there is the protovillanovan culture, whose origin is in the Urnfield culture of central Europe.
I understand that for issues related to the research of their own personal identity many would like the Etruscans to be connected to the East from the beginning. But at some point you also have to grow up and accept the evidence of facts.
Actually I was more in favour of an Pannonian origin of Etruscans than most early on. Influence from the Eastern Mediterranean doesn't mean that Etruscan itself came from there. If you read what I wrote, I rather argued for the opposite, namely Italian-Western Mediterranean derived Sea People connecting the West with the East and indeed establishing networks. This could influence Etruscans without them having come from the East or moving out themselves. Eteocypriot is no older than 1.100 BC, or at least not attested before, which means it could have spread with Sea People too.
I have no identity issues conntected with the Etruscans
It seem that some Nordicists like to use Levantist rhetoric, to explain why ancient people from the past are not like them today. That's why people like that get along well over at that other site.
This has already been said many years ago by archaeologists, that there was no evidence to support a Lydian origin of the Etruscans, but for unclear reasons outside of specialised studies it has continued to speak of a theory that is no longer taken seriously by etruscology since many years.
It's actually not that strange.
Speaking in general, the Etruscans were in massive presence in western Emilia up to southern Lombardy, they didn't really disappear after the arrival of the Gauls around 400 BC you can see it from the graves. Etruscans without doubt were also present in the Ligurian world as well as Ligurians in the Etruscan one. So it is very possible that your father has among his ancestors Ligurians, Etruscans, Latins...
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