Genetic study Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

Thanks, Angela :)


Dodecadk12b and Dodecad Global k13 use quite different components, with the latter much more skewed towards non-European components away from the Mediterranean, surely more "exotic". In my opinion the k12b is more suitable for us (and for Romans, Etruscans, Greeks...)

Dodecadk12b

Gedrosia
Siberian
Northwest_African
Southeast_Asian
Atlantic_Med
North_European
South_Asian
East_African
Southwest_Asian
East_Asian
Caucasus
Sub_Saharan

Dodecad Global k13

Siberian
Amerindian
West_African
Palaeo_African
Southwest_Asian
East_Asian
Mediterranean
Australasian
Arctic
West_Asian
North_European
South_Asian
East_African

Darn, Iḿ still out of juice. Great point.

I wonder if it would work if I wrote to Dienekes and BEGGED him to please create a more modern calculator. :)
 
Darn, Iḿ still out of juice. Great point.

I wonder if it would work if I wrote to Dienekes and BEGGED him to please create a more modern calculator. :)

I think that would be a great idea.
 
@Jovialis
Thanks.

Distance to:RegioX_FTDNA
6.55958078CSN009
6.70651176CSN008
7.05394216CSN005
8.12653678VET001
9.41857739VOL001
9.50136832TAQ006
9.53740007CSN006
10.02872873MAS004
10.16717267CSN013
10.39511424CAM002
10.89931649ETR007
11.10895135TAQ016
11.41516973CSN010
11.49166655CSN001
11.61171822TAQ015
11.65568960TAQ022
11.66901453MAG001
11.67514454TAQ002
11.73450042TAQ013
11.75715952CSN002
12.03864195CAM001
12.06148415TAQ001
12.18138744POP001
12.19683975MAS001
12.25035510TAQ019

Distance to:RegioX_23andMe
6.38270319CSN009
6.94375259CSN008
7.24925513CSN005
8.05755546VET001
9.31043501TAQ006
9.40846427VOL001
9.58750228CSN006
10.09663310MAS004
10.16564804CSN013
10.57309321ETR007
10.89891738CAM002
11.17414426TAQ022
11.22919409TAQ016
11.57910186CSN001
11.61249758MAG001
11.62194476TAQ015
11.67505032TAQ002
11.67978596CSN002
11.73312405POP001
11.75298685TAQ013
11.81703855TAQ020
11.90228129CSN010
12.18224528MAS001
12.18560626TAQ001
12.19382221CAM001

Distance to:
Father_23andMe
8.12950183CSN005
8.26902654CSN008
8.52899760CSN009
9.95742437VET001
10.30569260CAM002
10.66195104ETR007
10.81955637MAS001
11.26084366CSN010
11.28917623CSN006
11.37103777VOL001
11.63542436TAQ006
11.76161128CSN013
11.93887348MAS004
12.38346478TAQ022
12.65002372TAQ020
12.74146381TAQ016
12.95895443POP001
13.01693128TAQ011
13.14787435ETR003
13.18374378CSN001
13.33308666TAQ013
13.33481533TAQ015
13.40339136CSN002
13.60880230TAQ002
13.62126279CAM001

Distance to:Mother_23andMe
5.77591551CSN005
5.88793682CSN009
7.19979166CSN008
8.48606505VET001
9.31007519CAM002
9.43255533MAS004
9.49023182TAQ006
9.63698604VOL001
10.37809713CSN002
10.50176652CSN006
10.65904311CSN010
11.00640722ETR007
11.43317979MAS001
11.60437418CSN013
11.73288967TAQ016
11.88189800CSN001
11.95920148TAQ002
11.99474051MAG001
12.03727544PRZ002
12.37801680TAQ015
12.45430849CAM001
12.50604254TAQ019
12.56040206TAQ001
12.75410522TAQ013
12.76533587TAQ022

Distance to:Uncle_FTDNA
6.31205989CSN009
7.72364551CSN005
9.28806761CSN002
9.72897220ETR007
10.06289720MAS001
10.35305269CSN008
10.59917921TAQ006
10.66978913VET001
10.88827810MAS004
11.53146131CAM002
11.89288863VOL001
12.72358047TAQ022
13.24323978POP001
13.33113274CSN010
13.43656950CSN006
13.65741191TAQ009
13.90660634MAG001
14.20497096TAQ002
14.24586958TAQ011
14.36179655TAQ020
14.54303613PRZ002
14.60123967CSN001
14.70098976VEU001
14.70948673CSN013
14.73899590TAQ016

Distance to:In-law_23andMe
8.06387624CSN009
8.32383926ETR007
9.37881123MAS001
9.92019657CSN005
11.06911921CSN002
11.48088411CSN008
11.91251443VET001
11.96145058TAQ022
12.22777167POP001
12.25096731TAQ006
12.74898035TAQ009
12.78804129MAS004
12.89469658CAM002
12.92297953TAQ011
12.92731217TAQ020
13.32747538VOL001
13.80009783ETR003
14.41302883CSN006
14.92587351CSN010
15.20734362MAG001
15.23402442ETR010
15.38699451CSN013
15.58767462TAQ002
15.94874917CSN001
16.01536450VEU001


Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 97.8702% / 0.97870179 | ADC: 0.25x RC
40.8CSN008
28.6MAS001
17.4ETR003
9.0CAM002
4.2ETR007



Distance to:Torziok12b
6.47945854
CSN005
7.77274083CSN009
8.85378450CSN008
9.41315569ETR007
9.57447649VET001
9.89305312MAS001
10.99554455TAQ006
11.05177814CAM002
11.17633214VOL001
11.32613350TAQ022
11.63097588CSN006
11.80943267CSN010
11.86362508MAS004
11.98595845TAQ020
12.05735460POP001
12.13428201CSN013
12.20780898TAQ011
12.54692393ETR003
12.64932014TAQ009
12.85277402CSN002
13.01492220TAQ016
13.27414027CSN001
13.36240248TAQ015
13.51870186TAQ013
13.52757184TAQ002
 
Thanks so much, Jovialis. My father would be so happy. :)

My K1b results using my coordinates from Dodecadś project participant page:

Distance to:MyK12bAngela
5.99228671MAS001
8.20780726ETR007
9.23015168CSN005
10.93490283CSN009
12.92072753VET001
12.93179029CAM002
13.07593591TAQ022
13.10074425ETR003
13.26339700TAQ009
13.31483008CSN008
13.31641844TAQ011
13.42518156CSN010
13.63582781POP001
14.05850632TAQ020
14.36174084TAQ006
14.78497886VOL001
14.90071810CSN002
15.35351426MAS004
15.66113661VEN008
16.06000000CSN006
16.27143202VEN017
16.29441929VEN001
16.63951622ETR010
16.71727849CSN013
16.83423892CSN001

The results here don't correspond to the samples which are or would be closest to me on the PCA, which is somewhere between Liguria, Emilia and Toscana.
 
The results here don't correspond to the samples which are or would be closest to me on the PCA, which is somewhere between Liguria, Emilia and Toscana.

You might want to check out the 3D PCA version, to see where they are on the z-axis. They may seem close to you on the 2D projection, but could be far lower or higher in dimension.

https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/

An example being that Canarias may seem close to North Italian on the 2D projection, but on the 3D projection, they are pulled away significantly on the z-axis.
 
Another example, here C3 looks like it overlaps with C6 in the 2D PCA. However, on the 3D PCA, it is very distant:

TIirggr.png


MXKIWlF.png
 
@jovialis

with your talent ............you should separate the North-Italians into NW-Italian and NE-Italian like Dodecad did in some of his formulas..ie

N_Italian,0.00,15.80,0.00,0.00,28.20,56.00,0.00

North_Italian,0.00,14.10,0.00,0.00,30.20,55.70,0.00

both in Dodecad K7b

It should then cease to a degree the amount of Iberian admixture found in North-Italians
 
@jovialis

with your talent ............you should separate the North-Italians into NW-Italian and NE-Italian like Dodecad did in some of his formulas..ie

N_Italian,0.00,15.80,0.00,0.00,28.20,56.00,0.00

North_Italian,0.00,14.10,0.00,0.00,30.20,55.70,0.00

both in Dodecad K7b

It should then cease to a degree the amount of Iberian admixture found in North-Italians

If you are saying that North_Italian samples in Dodecad are all from the Northeast, that is absolutely incorrect. I was an original member of the project, and in the early days I knew quite a few of the people who supplied the data for that group and they were from lombardia, etcetera and other places all over Northern Italy. The N_Italian sample is just the very small in number academic samples from Bergamo. Other Italian, which is another category, did include people from the far Northeast and even outside of Italy.
 
MTA says:

- Samnites of Venosa
- Etruscans of Populonia
- Tarquinii
- Ancient Perugians
- Etruscan Vatlune
- Ancient Tarquinii
 
MTA says:
TAQ003 - Etruscan Tarquinii Italy 800 BC

IKCLF53.jpg


ZdJrmfM.jpg
 
MTA says:
- Samnites of Venosa
- Etruscans of Populonia
- Tarquinii
- Ancient Perugians
- Etruscan Vatlune
- Ancient Tarquinii


MTA is making it up as usual based on comments in the forums. Obviously some information could then turn out to be true, but at present there is no evidence that all of them are.
 
@Archetype0ne,

Pax preceded me and has already answered on several points adding a new PCA.

There is no doubt that Tarquinia/TAQ is a fundamental Etruscan centre. But if you notice, most of the samples from Tarquinia/TAQ are in the "northern" cluster (so quite close to the current Iberians and Italian Lombards), apart from a minority of individuals that are either of "mixed"/foreign origin (outliers?) and/or could be dated to a later phase, when Tarquinia becomes Roman (it was so since the beginning of the III century BC), with probable deduction/immigration of external people.

After all, the Etruscan population was spread over a large area of the Peninsula, which - sooner or later - put them in contact with other peoples, diversifying them. A similar hypothesis could be advanced on POP001 (from Populonia? which by the way - as a mining and metallurgical centre - I expect attracted various immigrants).


Yes, exactly Populonia was the most important port in northern Etruria and was one of the most important metallurgical centers, obviously frequented by many foreigners, which then underwent a process of decadence, until it was completely destroyed during the rule of the Longobards. There the modern population is not in continuity with the ancient one, the area became uninhabited for centuries. If I remember well Y-DNA's POP001 could be indicative of local origin (he is downstream to R1b-U152). Who knows, maybe an Etruscan with some non-etruscan ancestors. Based on his position in the PCA, hard to figure out who these non-Etruscan ancestors were. Because two-way models are too simplistic.


However, these are just conjectures, just to entertain the wait for the publication of precise data: in addition to solving the riddle of the initials of the locations (although it seems to me that on the identification TAQ = Tarquinia we are all quite ready to bet), it would be really useful to know the dating of the samples, which also cover periods after the flourishing of the Etruscans. Otherwise we risk a bit of what happened with the Moots/Antonio paper 2 years ago, where all the inhabitants of Rome in the imperial age are made to pass as paradigmatic of the entire Italic population, without regard to the actual historical phases and the many locations other than Rome.

Pax will be able to be more precise than me here: Latins and Etruscans seem to be rather similar or related from a genetic point of view in their early phases, but I think more that a certain closeness of the Etruscans to the Central-Eastern European world is due to that steppe component present in the Etruscans incubated in some Bronze Age phase of the Danubian-Balkan area (the major suspects should be the cultures of Mokrin and Maros), some fringes of which will move a little further West, giving rise to the proto-Italic populations and/or overlapping with the Anarian substratum (Neolithic + WHG) from which the Etruscans will emerge, while those remaining in situ will proceed with the Indo-Europeanisation of the Balkans.

It's super complicated to answer here. I will do in the next few days.


I see I have rather similar results to yours, comparing them with these samples, I'm not surprised, the reasons may be more than one and we may never get to the bottom of it. I stick to the following 3, which are not mutually exclusive:
1) equal shares of ancestral components between central-northern Italians and preslavic Balkan populations, which almost automatically overlaps us in the oracles
2) precisely that probable common steppe background mentioned above, from which both the Indo-European Balkans and the Proto-Italic ones proceeded
3) more recent migrations, also of Roman and medieval/Byzantine age, along the Adriatic Sea

Totally agreed.




it is possible that TAQ007
has some punic ancestery:cool-v:
that is very cool hope to know soon what is his date
:unsure:



It could be. I put the directions in the PCA for you but I did it by eye, just take it as a guideline. VEN014 and TAQ007 go in the direction of North Africans (which were probably Punic in the Iron Age). If you look at the position of R475 you realize for yourself that what is stated in the Antonio 2019 study is not correct, where it is assumed to be 53% African using a Late Neolithic Moroccan sample which however was a sample that certainly does not look like Iron Age North Africans and was partly descended from Neolithic Iberia. Certainly some of these samples are of North African descent, but the fact that many Punic were mixed with Sardinian Nuragic and Iberian (if you model them using the G25 some even have Steppe) makes it very complicated to understand all the ancestry of some samples, especially those that could be mixed with parents of several different ethnic groups. The mediators between the Etruscan world and the Punic/Phoenician world were the Sardinian Nuragics. as well as in their turn the Etruscans acted as mediators between the classical world and central Europe.


ep4SmAI.jpg
 
Yes, exactly Populonia was the most important port in northern Etruria and was one of the most important metallurgical centers, obviously frequented by many foreigners, which then underwent a process of decadence, until it was completely destroyed during the rule of the Longobards. There the modern population is not in continuity with the ancient one, the area became uninhabited for centuries. If I remember well Y-DNA's POP001 could be indicative of local origin (he is downstream to R1b-U152). Who knows, maybe an Etruscan with some non-etruscan ancestors. Based on his position in the PCA, hard to figure out who these non-Etruscan ancestors were. Because two-way models are too simplistic.




It's super complicated to answer here. I will do in the next few days.




Totally agreed.







It could be. I put the directions in the PCA for you but I did it by eye, just take it as a guideline. VEN014 and TAQ007 go in the direction of North Africans (which were probably Punic in the Iron Age). If you look at the position of R475 you realize for yourself that what is stated in the Antonio 2019 study is not correct, where it is assumed to be 53% African using a Late Neolithic Moroccan sample which however was a sample that certainly does not look like Iron Age North Africans and was partly descended from Neolithic Iberia. Certainly some of these samples are of North African descent, but the fact that many Punic were mixed with Sardinian Nuragic and Iberian (if you model them using the G25 some even have Steppe) makes it very complicated to understand all the ancestry of some samples, especially those that could be mixed with parents of several different ethnic groups. The mediators between the Etruscan world and the Punic/Phoenician world were the Sardinian Nuragics. as well as in their turn the Etruscans acted as mediators between the classical world and central Europe.


ep4SmAI.jpg

This is the kind of historical analysis which is necessary for a proper understanding of the source and nature of the autosomal components. Unfortunately, I have a feeling the authors from Max Plank will know nothing of it.
 
This is the kind of historical analysis which is necessary for a proper understanding of the source and nature of the autosomal components. Unfortunately, I have a feeling the authors from Max Plank will know nothing of it.

Speaking of historical analysis, I've got the impression, since among the samples already available some Etruscans (at least people coming from ancient Etruria) can be modelled as roughly half the core Etruscan cluster and half the core VEN cluster, that the "50% east med" gene flow into Etruria is going to be VEN-like, which seems to be south Italian-like.
 
After last MTA update, ‘82 Etruscans’ samples displayed among my 125 displayed by the app.

14. Volterra Etruria Italy
500 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.56 - VOL001

35. Etruscan League Veii

600 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.67 - VEU001

48. Etruscan Perusia
400 BC - Genetic Distance: 12.38 - PRZ002

74. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
800 BC - Genetic Distance: 13.15 - TAQ006

82. Etruscan Vatluna Twelve Cities
600 BC - Genetic Distance: 13.43 - VET003

87. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
400 BC - Genetic Distance: 13.6 - TAQ002

99. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
800 BC - Genetic Distance: 14.25 - TAQ005

101. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
800 BC - Genetic Distance: 14.34 - TAQ012

105. Etruria Iron Age Italy
1000 BC - Genetic Distance: 14.41 - ETR007

114. Etruscan Populonia
400 BC - Genetic Distance: 14.69 - POP001

lBL2PBk.jpg

I3YehzG.jpg

0bHoNYH.jpg

6jwVW4x.jpg


 
Otzi, Ven015, Taq003, Latin and Roman from Praeneste (R437 - R436), SZ1,… and Salento :grin: … all share a chromosome segment,

Cesare's segment? :cool-v:

… besides SZ1, they’re all Italians :)

oD9LkX6.jpg
 
Otzi, Ven015, Taq003, Latin and Roman from Praeneste (R437 - R436), SZ1,… and Salento :grin: … all share a chromosome segment,

Cesare's segment? :cool-v:

… besides SZ1, they’re all Italians :)

oD9LkX6.jpg


what about the kindred of SZ1

 
my SZ1 match



do not know why MTA does not know the ydna

SZ1:
mtDNA: J1b
Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a2a(Z2123)



skeletal remains from an individual dating to the Bronze Age 10 m north of the cemetery (SZ1).

bronze age ...and not 700AD as per MTA
 
my SZ1 match



do not know why MTA does not know the ydna

SZ1:
mtDNA: J1b

Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a2a(Z2123)


skeletal remains from an individual dating to the Bronze Age 10 m north of the cemetery (SZ1).

bronze age ...and not 700AD as per MTA

If you pay they’ll show you the SZ1 Haplogroups :)

:unsure: you get 633 SNPs Largest Chain and I get 634.

SZ1 is so old that more or less we all get a chunk of it, Caio Giulio Cesare included (main ancient shared ancestry) I Think.

LuSn8pr.jpg
 

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