J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Archetype0ne said:
I cant wait for the Lazaridis paper tbh.

Two things I wonder, will we find L283 in Thracian territory?
Will we find E-V13 from LBA to IA around Hungary and Austria.
I think both scenarios should be plausible. And if we do not find them, then for sure some arbitrary division might have been the case, as in your proposed MDTC and EU/CW one.

But yeah, the Lazaridis paper I think, along with the Troy and Bulgaria ones will shake a lot up.

Edit: Also I do believe people are sleeping on J2a. From what I understand this is the best candidate of Myceneans? Could be wrong. But I got a hunch this haplogroup does not receive the attention it deserves.
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I think they will have been intermixed since the LBA expansions, along a zone of interaction in particular, largely along the Danube, but being divided at the start of their respective expansions. As for J2a, I do agree, they might be present in the Channelled Ware people pointing to an earlier South -> North movement in the EBA-MBA and there are now a couple of samples with a quite Northern autosomal background. How this will turn in detail is open, but their main problem for the lack of attention is simply that they had no such long term success like E-V13 and J-L283 had in Europe.
 
Riverman said:
I think they will have been intermixed since the LBA expansions, along a zone of interaction in particular, largely along the Danube, but being divided at the start of their respective expansions. As for J2a, I do agree, they might be present in the Channelled Ware people pointing to an earlier South -> North movement in the EBA-MBA and there are now a couple of samples with a quite Northern autosomal background. How this will turn in detail is open, but their main problem for the lack of attention is simply that they had no such long term success like E-V13 and J-L283 had in Europe.
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Yep, in line with what I was thinking.

And also, success is relative, some lines that today might have all but vanished could, for all we know been core to great civilizations in times past.
 
from Yfull 10.00 heatmap and phylogeographer they have




they state the samples are from the Japodes

I asked if the daunian samples are related as they are known as Japodes

map below shows them both

 
torzio said:
from Yfull 10.00 heatmap and phylogeographer they have




they state the samples are from the Japodes

I asked if the daunian samples are related as they are known as Japodes

map below shows them both

Click to expand...

Do we know which modern samples from Vlore.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
blevins13 said:
Do we know which modern samples from Vlore.


Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
Click to expand...


the albanian from Vlore is J2b-Z1297 , these seem to be from the Auturiatae Illyrian tribe ( west of ancient Dardanian lands ), but this tribe was known to be celtinized

...............but, I do not care about any samples from any paper from AD times, ....so you can check via Yfull
 
The pink hexagon in post 1028 is a modern croatian who has the Japodes snp of these ancient people
 
torzio said:
from Yfull 10.00 heatmap and phylogeographer they have

they state the samples are from the Japodes
I asked if the daunian samples are related as they are known as Japodes
map below shows them both
Click to expand...

Hunter killed it with this map. This is why I love genetics. Comparing young and ancient samples to figure out missing pieces of history. No fake stories and made up theories. Just pure facts. If only we had deep subclade analysis on those Italian samples, we could definitively prove a link between the Messapian Iapodes and Illyrian Iapyges.

I wonder if we can get in contact with the authors of that paper to maybe redo those samples with higher quality.
 
I also noticed that some modern Croats and Bosnians have some Illyrian Y-DNA and it actually hasn't migrated very far from 2000 years ago.
 
enter_tain said:
I also noticed that some modern Croats and Bosnians have some Illyrian Y-DNA and it actually hasn't migrated very far from 2000 years ago.
Click to expand...
that modern croatian in the pink hexagon has the same snp's as these ancient Japodes ..........and he is very close.

Everybody thinks these balkan ( slovene, croatia, Dalmatia etc ) areas where empty when the slavs came in around 600AD ....how 100% wrong are they
 
Kastrati said:
I'm reposting the above image since @vettor cropped out the bottom of it... he screenshotted it from Hunter Provyn's new J2b video. I wonder why he hasn't been banned yet, because he's been showing his true colors time and time again. From falsely claiming that I2 and G2a are Illyrian haplogroups, to cropping out the caption of the image below which mentions most Albanians belong to the J-Z638 clade, it's clear he has something against Albanians and Illyrians. I mean really, how can someone crop out the name of the people in which this haplogroup is most frequent, how pathetic.





View attachment 48041
Click to expand...


This slimebag obviously has mental health issues, and while that is sad my empathy for him has all but evaporated. Given for years he spams, sidetracks and undermines topics on my haplogroup and Albanians.

He claims Hunter gave him the graphic, when I know for a fact he did not, and in fact he edited it out as a schizophrene would to pretend his version of reality is in any way relevant to the facts, and leave Albanians out of the picture.

When this scum has been doing this for 10+ years without getting banned, it really turns my stomach.

Then he goes on another forums posts the same shit and then claims this:
vettor said:
Thanks for map


Glad to see these J2b Albanians are ancient northern Balkan people and not from modern Albania .............it means the J2b is northern Balkan and my guess up to East-Austria.................I think we need to see what riverman results are for E-V13 in this area of J2b


I do not look at AD results and will only look at BC results..............mixing these always gives problems.


the results above might mean a very, very, very old theory ( 30 plus years ) that the Dorians came from NW Greece/Albania .............they had to have had a fleet , to be on the coast as they also conquered Crete , Rhodes and many other islands apart from mainland Greece
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First edits the image, then inputs his own nauseating moronic twist as an analysis. Bastard.

Did some Albo steal you prom date in highschool?
 
torzio said:
that modern croatian in the pink hexagon has the same snp's as these ancient Japodes ..........and he is very close.
Everybody thinks these balkan ( slovene, croatia, Dalmatia etc ) areas where empty when the slavs came in around 600AD ....how 100% wrong are they
Click to expand...

Not really wrong. J2b-L283 is relatively quite low in Bosnians and Croats. Boggles my mind your little crusade against Albanians being Illyrian despite the super high concentration of J2b-L283 and relative diversity. You see a handful of Balkan Slavs with some J2b-L283 Illyrian clades and you practically get aroused. How many years are you going to play your sad old hating game? Now we have a ton of J2b-L283 in Illyrians. How wrong were you that you continue with your mental hurdles?
 
Torzio/Vettor/Sile certainly cropped out Albanians from that image. Here is the original post and image on Phylogeographer where he got it from: https://phylogeographer.com/phylogeographer-updated-to-yfull-v10-00-00/

He is also erred (or perhaps making it up) about the modern Albanian from Vlorë region. The sample in question is the Albanian under J-Y146400 that Blevins13 knows all too well :) and not a J-Z1297 sample.

However, as can be seen on YFull, important to note that this Albanian's lineage has diverged from the Croatian and the aDNA sample since ~1900 BCE, so it could well be in southern Albania since the Bronze Age.
 
I've been here since 2015. Funny to see vettor go from Albanians are Caucasian imports from the Ottoman empire, to now denying that Illyrians existed in Albanian regions.
Vettor, Riverman, Aspurg and all of these figures come from the same cloth, you cannot convince them about anything.

If you do not start with the assumption that Albanians are descendant of the Illyrians, you will be wrong, it is really as simple as that. That's why you had the great Sardinian theory of Riverman who now spouts total nonsense about Daco-Thracians and EV13. It's why Aspurg had a really embarrasing celebration when the contaminated, uncarbondated I2a sample of Croatia showed up last month, and it's also why Johnny Derite is making a total fool of himself with his Komani Asian theories, and his frankly worrisome obsession with stories like Troy, and also playing around with some of the most ridiculously speculative linguistic theories on two almost completely undocumented languages.

Albanians descend from Illyrians. The J2-L283 haplogroup has been found in massive amounts among northern Illyrians. However we still haven't had any samples from important regions such as Mat-Glasinac or Southern Illyrians in general. When we get more samples from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, then the picture will become even clearer for those who were too ignorant to see it.
 
Fustan said:
I've been here since 2015. Funny to see vettor go from Albanians are Caucasian imports from the Ottoman empire, to now denying that Illyrians existed in Albanian regions.
Vettor, Riverman, Aspurg and all of these figures come from the same cloth, you cannot convince them about anything.

If you do not start with the assumption that Albanians are descendant of the Illyrians, you will be wrong, it is really as simple as that. That's why you had the great Sardinian theory of Riverman who now spouts total nonsense about Daco-Thracians and EV13. It's why Aspurg had a really embarrasing celebration when the contaminated, uncarbondated I2a sample of Croatia showed up last month, and it's also why Johnny Derite is making a total fool of himself with his Komani Asian theories, and his frankly worrisome obsession with stories like Troy, and also playing around with some of the most ridiculously speculative linguistic theories on two almost completely undocumented languages.

Albanians descend from Illyrians. The J2-L283 haplogroup has been found in massive amounts among northern Illyrians. However we still haven't had any samples from important regions such as Mat-Glasinac or Southern Illyrians in general. When we get more samples from Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, then the picture will become even clearer for those who were too ignorant to see it.
Click to expand...

L283 is absolutely without a doubt an Illyrian lineage, the recent papers have proven it, but this was already known for a long time now.

Albanian L283 people descend obviously from Illyrians, what more is there to say here.

As for if the Albanian language descends from the Illyrian language, this is a totally different problem.

Just last month a specialist of the Albanian language, Old Albanian language and ancient balkan languages, published a book saying the illyrian language died out and Albanian does not descend from it.

This view of his is not unique as countless linguists have argued this since the 20th century.

It is obvious thar I2a and R1a Albanians cannot be said to be descendants paternally of Illyrians. So not all Albanians descend from illyrians, this is a given.

As for "Komani Asian" theories, I have no personal theories, i just showed latest results of studies that found presence of asians and other migratory populations in komani culture, which means its wasnt just a pure illyrian culture as claimed, but rather mixed. This doesn"t mean it was "asian". When they test their dna we will likely see asiatic haplogroups also. Again these are from the top scholars and specialists of these fields.
 
Dibran said:
Not really wrong. J2b-L283 is relatively quite low in Bosnians and Croats. Boggles my mind your little crusade against Albanians being Illyrian despite the super high concentration of J2b-L283 and relative diversity. You see a handful of Balkan Slavs with some J2b-L283 Illyrian clades and you practically get aroused. How many years are you going to play your sad old hating game? Now we have a ton of J2b-L283 in Illyrians. How wrong were you that you continue with your mental hurdles?
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Highest concentration of Slavic Y DNA is Croatia and Bosnia. Croatians score in aDNA calculators 80%+ Slavic DNA autosomally.
 
[FONT=&quot]I would like to point out some fundamentally known fact here:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is a known fact that the paternal lineages associated with the diffusion of the Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards are I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches of R1a-M458.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I2a1b-CTS10228 was not assimilated by the Slavs IT IS A SLAVIC MARKER and part of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. It is most diverse in the east and west slavic triangle of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine, the actual place of the original Slavic Urheimat. It came to Southeastern Europe with the Slavic conquest in late antiquity and early Middle Ages. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am saying this for the third time, but who’s counting right… this is a J2b-L283 thread only![/FONT]
 
mount123 said:
Highest concentration of Slavic Y DNA is Croatia and Bosnia. Croatians score in aDNA calculators 80%+ Slavic DNA autosomally.
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Of course. Never stated otherwise. I was responding to the irony in his statement to over exxagerate the Illyrian Y-DNA presence in Croatians/Bosnians whilst simultaneously trying to downplay and deny Albanian connection to Illyrian despite the higher concentration and diversity of J2b-L283 in Albanians. He clearly has a hate for Albanians.
 
Dibran said:
Not really wrong. J2b-L283 is relatively quite low in Bosnians and Croats. Boggles my mind your little crusade against Albanians being Illyrian despite the super high concentration of J2b-L283 and relative diversity. You see a handful of Balkan Slavs with some J2b-L283 Illyrian clades and you practically get aroused. How many years are you going to play your sad old hating game? Now we have a ton of J2b-L283 in Illyrians. How wrong were you that you continue with your mental hurdles?
Click to expand...
There is no hate here ...............you do not realise what this Iapodes theory means ............It means that the Daunians who are also known as Iapodes and have the messapic language come from these North-Balkan Iapodes ...........
so, is the messapic language a mix of Illyrian with local Italic when the Daunians arrived in Italy or it it a pure Illyrian language with origins in North-Balkan Iapodes.
One needs to check with the Matzinger paper and see .................I cannot read german.
Since daunians are celtinized Illyrians like the Iapodes , Dalmatians, etc .............with their "celtic" tatooing etc.............the conclusion is there ............Illyrians are northern Balkan in origin .
The only non-celtinized Illyrians must be Pliny Illyri proper ones from Montenegro ....................in his time Illyrium was from south slovenia to south Montenegro ..............this excludes the Histrians who where already merged with the Venetics in the Roman province number ten.............
Pliny census of the Illyrians male numbers in Illyricum give us a clue on the percentage of the proper Illyrians
to conclude ...........as I said many years ago, Albanian origins are with the Dardanians .....and the few celtinized Iapodes are late arrivals into Albanian society.....( you should also see Dalmatian markers as well ) ............but these few are not going to make the albanian society on the coast............you need to find others which make up albanian numbers.
BTW there are no balkan slavs in BC times..........why you confusing the issue
 
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