Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

That’s not true. Gashi I Gurit is a tribe in itself and has nothing to do with Krasniqi, except for sharing a TMRCA of ~ 850 ybp with them and Nikaj. Gashi as an anthroponym has been mentioned since 1485, then as a tribe / village in 1634, in 1636 by Bardhi, in 1651 by Bogdani etc.
Frang Bardhi in the visit of 1634 in the village of Gash, which is supposed to be GegHyseni, says that the first of the Gashi tribe was Pjeter Spani, the ruler of Pult. Which based on genetic studies, it seems to be kinda true. According to Elsie, Gashi was the first tribe of Tropoja and lived there long before Krasniqja came. Based on its tribal scheme, but also based on TMRCA, Krasniqja must have come to Tropoja around the years 1550-1600.
In 1689 we have the letter of the "Krenat e Gashit", addressed to the Pope of Rome, where they asked for priests for their churches.

Right after the letter of the leaders of Gashi, somewhere between 1693 - 1695, the Pasha of Peja, conducted an expedition and destroyed whole Gashi and moved all its inhabitants to the Dukagjini Plain. This was a very big turning point for the Gashi tribe. This tribe that settled in the Dukagjini Plain at that time was still Catholic, and today is scattered throughout Kosovo, in Llap, Gollak, Anamorave, as well as in Drenice and Dukagjini Plain. This was Gashi I Gurit, that is, the real Gashi, the descendants of the noble medieval family of Spani, who has no blood connection with the Bardhet e Gashit(Whites of Gashi) which today live in Tropoje, nor are they "integrated" in the tribe of Krasniqi as you claim. After the settlement of Gashi i Gurit in Kosovo, Krasniqja began to migrate west and populate the old settlements of Gashi in Tropoje.

Bardhet e Gashit on the other hand, multiplied and expanded their settlements, and since mid 1700 until today, are known as synonymous with the Gashi tribe. Today they inhabit all the villages of Gashi of Tropoja, except Luzha which is Gash i Gurit and which was formed by the Aga of Botosha sometime after 1700. They together with Shipshaj, are both E-V13>PH2180. In Kosovo, although there are few tested, most of the Gash are Gash i Gurit (j2b-l283). Normally, there are families that have joined the Gashi tribe in Kosovo as well, but what is more important, so far, no tested Gashi brotherhood of Bardhi or even Shipshan has been encountered yet.

To be frank, Gashi i Gurit is not Krasniqe, nor Krasniqja is Gash i Gurit. Not even Nikaj belong to the Krasniqi tribe. The real Krasniq are those who share a TMRCA of 500 ybp and who are the descendants of the Kolmekshaj, Hysenmekshaj and Kolgecaj brotherhood.
The last common ancestor of these three tribes lived about 900 years ago. The paternal line of the Gashi tribe has been separated since then, while the Nikaj and Krasniqe share even closer common ancestors, until about 600-700 years ago. Also in this subclade is an Arberesh of Italy and an Albanian from Syria, who claims to be from the Dukagjini tribe. If this is true, then it once again confirms the origin of Gashi i Gurit from the noble medieval family of Spani (Pjeter Spani, Leke Spani), because according to M.Sufflay, the Spani was the same tribe with Dukagjini.


Long story short, do not mess around with history.

Kolmekshaj, Hysenmekshaj and Kolgecaj, Curri are those who are in northern Albania Tropoje. Rrafshi Prishtines is in East Central Kosovo We Krasniq here are mainly Strofci, Graja, Bojku and much more. We don't have a highland culture like our cousins in Northern Albania. Their women dress the same way as those Berisha Merturi girls ours have their own folkloric style. Also, according to those "scholars", you are quoting, Krasniqi was related to Berisha e Kuqe Not everything starts in Northern Albania...this is pure Albania centrism and also a propagandistic ideology that was pushed by stalinistic communist Albania and pro Yugoslav propaganda.

 

[torzio]

Everything I claim has been backed by multiple authors, new AND old. I don't make up fake facts/populations.

The Albanoi have been recorded in that region for 2500 years. You even had an "Arbaios" last name in Finiq/Phoenice from 200-300 BC. There is 0 evidence of a new population moving in there. All Byzantine sources have tracked that continuity there.

An inscription in ancient Greek in Phoenice, southern Albania related to the liberation act of the slave Nikarchos Nikomachou Arbaios is linked to the Albanoi as Arbaios is an ethnonym which has the same root as that of the Albanoi and hasn't been attested anywhere else.[19] Arbaios is considered to not have been a local of the city, but someone who had been moved there from more northern areas in central Albania.[20] The inscription was excavated in the 1920s by Luigi Ugolini. It dates to the 3rd/2nd century BCE.[1]

Phoenice or Phoenike (Greek: Φοινίκη) was an ancient Greek city in Epirus and capital of the Chaonians.

Chaonians the 2nd biggest of the 14 Epirote tribes .................they also controlled Butrint town

 

[enter_tain]

Phoenice or Phoenike (Greek: Φοινίκη) was an ancient Greek city in Epirus and capital of the Chaonians.
Chaonians the 2nd biggest of the 14 Epirote tribes .................they also controlled Butrint town

Yeah, I am aware. The name was written in Greek. The guy was a foreigner.


"Arbaios is considered to not have been a local of the city, but someone who had been moved there from more northern areas in central Albania"

 

[Johane Derite]

Earlier, we have accounts of around 150,000 Getae, or "trans-Danubaians" being settled in Moesia in the first century AD.

This is particularly important as at this time Dardania was a region in Moesia Superior.

Could proto-Albanian speakers have been among these 150,000?

Or could these "transdanubian" migrants have pushed proto-Albanian shepherds further soutwest?

In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


-Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
-North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
-Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities [shepherds] coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
-The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis

He says that the approximate window of 300-900AD for the proto-Albanian migration is enough for the Gheg Tosk isogloss to have developed

 

[Johane Derite]

"The Albanian ethnogenesis is likely to be the result of an ethnic awareness of a Christian pastoral community based on small-scale livestock farming, which emerged in confrontation with the originally non-Christian, arable farming Slavs who spoke a foreign idiom."

 

[Fustan]

Bruzmi just had a great write-up about Albanian linguistics and even has some great critique of Matzinger, it is a great post that I think everybody here should read.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project&p=828052&viewfull=1#post828052

Needles to say I will be using Matzingers papers only for toilet paper at this point.

 

[Southpaw]

Bruzmi is like the most unreliable internet persona, he is an anti E-V13 person, who goes around in every E-V13 thread to deceive, lie and manipulate with data.

He just goes around in circles and what he writes is repetitive garbage.

As for him being quoted as Matzinger critique. What a pitty. I expect a critique from the likes of Bardhyl Demiraj.

 

[Johane Derite]

lol, Bruzmi is like the most unreliable internet persona, he is an anti E-V13 person, who goes around in every E-V13 thread to deceive, lie and manipulate with data.

He just goes around in circles and what he writes is repetitive garbage.

As for him being quoted as Matzinger critique. What a pitty. I expect a critique from the likes of Bardhyl Demiraj.

I just read it, and it is just a long cope.

Half of the content is not even an argument (typical of his style, he doesn't actually provide positive arguments but tries to construct a fake propaganda against a methodology as if it doesn't exist or somethin, etc)

The other half is cherrypicked or outdated, also funnily specifically of sources he has demonised before, for example he uses Orel to argue that the /sk/ cluster also became /shk/ and /shq/ in Albanian and that supposedly Matzinger has never heard these arguments before. These arguments have not been accepted by any of the latest publications on Albanian and Old ALbanian, based on phonetic reasons.

Whereas the team that is trying to pull out these multiple different reflexes (shk, shq) as coming from the same phoneme are obviously motivated by the need for Shkoder to be a pre-Roman accent. Clearly not letting the evidence speak for itself but trying to pull out results that they want to see.

When he tried to sell his argument that the Brnjica culture simply didn't exist despite recent publications from Austrian and other credible universities literally about this culture, this was the point that it should have been clear to everyone that he is just a straight up liar.

Also that they attempt to single out Matzinger, when there are plenty of linguists that are in agreement with Matzinger, like Shumacher, De Vaan, etc.

Shkoder should have been Hadër if it was an Albanian toponym and had been known by Albanians since the beginning, all these attempts to erase the latin speaking people show how tendentious it is.

Proto-Albanians learnt the toponym Scodra from a Latin speaking people, likewsie Shkudra in Montenegro. These were Dalmatian-type speaking people, probably the Komani-Kruja culture people.

Likewise Matzinger shows that Durrës should be Durrëq in Albanian if proto-Albanians had known it since before roman era.

 

[Southpaw]

I just read it, and it is just a long cope.

Half of the content is not even an argument (typical of his style, he doesn't actually provide positive arguments but tries to construct a fake propaganda against a methodology as if it doesn't exist or somethin, etc)

The other half is cherrypicked or outdated, also funnily specifically of sources he has demonised before, for example he uses Orel to argue that the /sk/ cluster also became /shk/ and /shq/ in Albanian and that supposedly Matzinger has never heard these arguments before. These arguments have not been accepted by any of the latest publications on Albanian and Old ALbanian, based on phonetic reasons.

Whereas the team that is trying to pull out these multiple different reflexes (shk, shq) as coming from the same phoneme are obviously motivated by the need for Shkoder to be a pre-Roman accent. Clearly not letting the evidence speak for itself but trying to pull out results that they want to see.

When he tried to sell his argument that the Brnjica culture simply didn't exist despite recent publications from Austrian and other credible universities literally about this culture, this was the point that it should have been clear to everyone that he is just a straight up liar.

Also that they attempt to single out Matzinger, when there are plenty of linguists that are in agreement with Matzinger, like Shumacher, De Vaan, etc.

Shkoder should have been Hadër if it was an Albanian toponym and had been known by Albanians since the beginning, all these attempts to erase the latin speaking people show how tendentious it is.

Proto-Albanians learnt the toponym Scodra from a Latin speaking people, likewsie Shkudra in Montenegro. These were Dalmatian-type speaking people, probably the Komani-Kruja culture people.

Likewise Matzinger shows that Durrës should be Durrëq in Albanian if proto-Albanians had known it since before roman era.

A more reliable critique would be Bardhyl Demiraj who stands in a similar ground like Matzinger, he is a linguistics professor in the University of Munich. I would gladly read his review.

As for Brnjica, yeah. I realized as well, there is one Kosovo Albanian archeologist who wrote about Brnjica, he published his paper for a German University in archeology department, i guess all of these people have a big conspiracy against them.

 

[Fustan]

Bruzmi is like the most unreliable internet persona, he is an anti E-V13 person, who goes around in every E-V13 thread to deceive, lie and manipulate with data.

You sure you didn't mean to write Riverman? How is Bruzmi anti-EV13 at all?

 

[Johane Derite]

A more reliable critique would be Bardhyl Demiraj who stands in a similar ground like Matzinger, he is a linguistics professor in the University of Munich. I would gladly read his review.

As for Brnjica, yeah. I realized as well, there is one Kosovo Albanian archeologist who wrote about Brnjica, he published his paper for a German University in archeology department, i guess all of these people have a big conspiracy against them.

Yes of course, it would be more than welcome, but these arguments have been solid since the 20th century, he added some new analyses of the Illyrian corpus which did not exist before, but with respect to the Albanian toponyms, etc, they have been known since Jokl, Hamp, Cabej, etc, and have not been "debunked".

 

[Johane Derite]

Again, in 5 years i'm sure we will be lightyears ahead from now, we have come a long way, but it is time to at least start considering these different scenarios.

When osteologists find migratory populations among local ones in Komani-Kruja, when archaeolgoists argue that it resembles a roman culture like in Dalmatia (latinised), when linguists argue that these placenames entered the proto-Albanian language in a post roman period, when historians like Noel Malcolm also argue that Komani-Kruja culture doesn't fit criteria for proto-Albanian language, all independantly of each other, it makes you think, there just might have been latin speaking Illyrians in these places.

This would explain who taught proto-Albanians certain toponyms like Scodra, etc.

Ancient dna will clarify everything once we get it.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Some people are so afraid that the toil they did on socials for years was in vain and clowns work that they have to misinterpret single sources 30 times in 5 pages, even responding to their own posts.

I should emphasize a couple more things about Matzinger.


Many people who criticize his work do so not because they've read Matzinger but because they've read what other people who have nothing to do with the academic world are writing about it. For their own reasons, these people often cite Matzinger's work in specific ways in order to give credibility to their personal beliefs. Matzinger doesn't say that Albanians came to Albania from some far away place in 300-900 and he doesn't delink Albanian from Illyrian. In Matzinger (2021), he has further revised several views. Matzinger's theory should be criticized because it's constructing historical theories without historical documentation and because it's relying on a limited dataset which focuses on very few toponyms to support his thesis that Albanian developed inland in relation to coastal Illyrian. But Matzinger is also one of the very few authors who has written that Proto-Albanians as a distinct people existed since the 8th century BC. I mention this particular point to raise awareness of the fact that Matzinger is not what online theories which make use of his work make him to be. Last, you can disagree with Matzinger but you can't write public derogatory comments about him. He is an academic who has worked for many years in his field. You can agree or disagree with his work but you have to do so in a way which respects him and his work. That's the number one rule of free speech in a democratic society. Having said that, I consider both personal attacks and pseudo-scientific distortions of his work equally disrespectful.


Now, an excerpt from Matzinger (2018), Lexicon of Albanian in Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics (vol. 3), De Gruyter:




Although it is widely believed that Albanian goes back to Illyrian or even Thracian, this view cannot be seriously upheld from the linguistic point of view (see Matzinger 2009). None of the ancient personal or local names ascribed to Illyrian are continued in Albanian without interruption (e.g. the place-name Shkodra is merely a loan from Latin Scodra). Consequently, Albanian cannot be regarded as an offspring of Illyrian or even Thracian but must be considered to be a modern continuation of some other undocumented Indo-European Balkan idiom. However, Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words (see Matzinger 2005): (Messapic-) Oenotrian ῥινός ‘clouds’ ~ Old Geg rẽ, Old Tosk rē ‘cloud’, the Messapic gloss βρένδο- ‘stag’ and the place-name Brundisium (Italian Bríndisi) ~ Old Geg brĩ, or the name of the Illyrian tribe of the Taulantioi ~ Albanian dallëndyshe ‘swallow’ (see Eichner 2004: 10 f.).



Albanian shares a considerable number of words in common with Rumanian (see Solta 1980: 3 f., 125 f. and Vătăşescu 1997). Some of them are remnants of an old inherited vocabulary (e.g. Albanian thark ‘pen for young livestock’ ~ Rumanian ţarc ‘id.’), while others comprise a younger category of Latin words attested in some cases only in Albanian and Rumanian (e.g. Albanian mëngon ‘get up very early’ ~ Rumanian mâneca ‘id.’ ← Latin *mānicāre ‘id.’). Both classes emerged from old and intensive contacts between the Proto-Albanians and the ancestors of the Rumanians. A widespread opinion regards the older category of the Albano-Rumanian common lexicon as the reflex of an ancient substratum of Thracian, Dacian, or unknown origin (a collection of these words is Brâncuş 1983). Aside from a few single words of perhaps non-Indo-European origin (Albanian modhullë ‘yellow vetchling [Lathyrus aphaca]’ ~ Rumanian mazăre ‘pea’), the largest part of this alleged substratum common to both Albanian and Rumanian consists simply of loan-words in Rumanian from Proto-Albanian, e.g. Rumanian ţarc ‘pen for young livestock’ from Proto-Albanian */tsárka-/ (Modern Albanian thark). The derivational base of this noun is continued in the Old Albanian verb thurën ‘interweave’ (< IE */k̑erH-/ ‘weave’, cf. Latin crātis ‘pen’; see details in Schumacher 2009: 43−45).


It is a characteristic feature of the Albanian language to be open to loan-words from various sources. The oldest stratum is found in Ancient Greek loans, which result from contacts between Greeks and speakers of Proto-Albanian from about 600 BCE onward. Subsequent to the Roman occupation of the Balkans, Proto-Albanian was heavily influenced by Latin. Single words as well as a good many derivational suffixes were taken over.


The Greek loan-words are of various chonological origins. The oldest are of Ancient Greek (Doric) provenance, mostly designations of vegetables, spices, fruits, animals, and tools (cf. Old Geg drapënë, modern Albanian drapër ‘sickle’ ← δρέπανον ‘id.’, Old Geg lakënë, modern Albanian lakër ‘cabbage’ ← λάχανον ‘potherbs’, presh ‘leek’ ← πράσον ‘id.’). These loans resulted from the earliest contacts between Greeks − either colonists of the Adriatic coastal regions or more probably Greek merchants in the Balkan hinterland − and Proto-Albanians from the 8th century BCE on.

Is it me or somewhere in that informative comment it is mentioned that the Albanian Romanian relation is an proto-Albanian to Romanian loanword one? While at the same time Albanian showing Greek loanwords from 800 BCE. I guess Albanians borrowed from Ancient Greek in Moesia or whatever...

Sigh...

Also, I swear I will ignore some people if they keep reading authors say "likely" and pretend its a fact. Nauseating and repetitive deceptive behavior.
Then throw:
'bUt YoUr rEaDiNg CoMpReHenSiOn'

 

[Southpaw]

He writes about and against "online theories" as if he is not part of it. All he does is using strawman arguments.

 

[Johane Derite]

Some people are so afraid that the toil they did on socials for years was in vain and clowns work that they have to misinterpret single sources 30 times in 5 pages, even responding to their own posts.





Is it me or somewhere in that informative comment it is mentioned that the Albanian Romanian relation is an proto-Albanian to Romanian loanword one? While at the same time Albanian showing Greek loanwords from 800 BCE. I guess Albanians borrowed from Ancient Greek in Moesia or whatever...

Sigh...

Also, I swear I will ignore some people if they keep reading authors say "likely" and pretend its a fact. Nauseating and repetitive deceptive behavior.
Then throw:
'bUt YoUr rEaDiNg CoMpReHenSiOn'

Another brilliant example of low reading comprehension.


So now Matzinger's arguments are good and he is a noble scientist all of a sudden because Bruzmi has put a spin that suits your desires? Don't get your hopes up.


I have posted countless times that proto-Albanian loanwords exist in Romanian, this is one of the main reasons that proto-Albanian could not have been in Albania since proto-Romanians were not in Albania, but they were in Dardania (Noel Malcolm).

These are just the basics.



On to the next part.




Posting the quote of Matzinger from 2018 where he says:


"However, Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and also Messapic"




But totally ignoring his 2021 book on Illyrians where he clarifies in exact words that Albanian is not a continuation of Illyrian and that the Illyrian language was Latinised and then died out, is manipulative.

He also explicitly states that proto-Albanian migrated to Albania in the post roman period.

He also clarifies that Illyrian and Messapic are not the same language group in his 2021 book, so this is the most updated academic view. He says Albanian is not part of the East Alpine Block, while Illyrian is.

These are his explicit and up to date positions. Trying to twist his words shows how manipulative and dishonest some people are, and how gullible and of a low reading comprehension others who eat up such garbage are.



Albanian is geographically closer to Illyrian, they are both indo european languages, this means that Albanian will share more common words with Illyrian than with Celtic, without it still meaning they are the same language.

This goes for all the languages that possibly were part of the Balkan Indo-European areal contact.

Descendance in language is determined from phonetic system, not single words.

From the latest book on Illyrians published one month ago, we have an analysis of the Illyrian name Grabos, Grabon. One of the possible relations is Russian. Grab.

This does not mean that Illyrian is Russian or Slavic just because there is a possible shared word. Likewise Albanian and Illyrian are both IE languages that probably also had contact at differnet stages, they will share words without it meaning descendance.

 

[Southpaw]

Despite that, the 2018 paper from Matzinger has been constantly quoted by Derite, i mean he was the first one to do so, and in most cases the most frequent poster on doing that. I have read that passage on 2018 Matzinger paper from Derite's post.

 

[Johane Derite]

In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


-Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
-North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
-Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities [shepherds] coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
-The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis

He says that the approximate window of 300-900AD for the proto-Albanian migration is enough for the Gheg Tosk isogloss to have developed

Bruzmi says:

"For their own reasons, these people often cite Matzinger's work in specific ways in order to give credibility to their personal beliefs. (This is what Bruzmi is doing)

Matzinger doesn't say that Albanians came to Albania from some far away place in 300-900 and he doesn't delink Albanian from Illyrian."



Matzinger says:

"A clear indication of a very chronologcially young migration of Albanophones into their current homes."

"we do not know when exactly this immigration must have taken place; the timeframe can roughly be outline as late antiquity, the historical phonology of Proto-Albanian in the relation to the adaptation of place-names suggests a period from approximately 300 to 900AD"


You literally have the direct quote of Matzinger saying proto-Albanians migrated from Dardania/Moesia/Dacia ripensis/Dacia Mediterranea and Bruzmi is claiming he didn't say that. This is called lying.

 

[Southpaw]

He is a big time provoker as well, like a passive-agressive deceitful person, he has probably some insider admin doing the dirty job there, like he provokes people, and him and his friends report his posts so as to have the impression and justification to other admins that the person should be banned. He was even intentionally calling for the E-V13 thread to be closed, because he was irritated from the posts of Riverman.

 

[Johane Derite]

While at the same time Albanian showing Greek loanwords from 800 BCE. I guess Albanians borrowed from Ancient Greek in Moesia or whatever...

Sorry to say it but what do you think "Balkan hinterland" means?

You demonstrate over and over again that you literally read a page and take what you want, that you actually do have some sort of problem with reading comprehension, you comprehend what you want to, not what the author is saying:


"These loans resulted from the earliest contacts between Greeks − either colonists of the Adriatic coastal regions or more probably Greek merchants in the Balkan hinterland − and Proto-Albanians from the 8th century BCE on."


You understand that Greek goods are found in the central balkans in the archaeological record?

Albanian still has a very low amount of total greek loans, which means its contact with greek was minimal, which is just one reason why he says MORE PROBABLY greek merchants in the balkan hinterland (Dardania, Moesia, Dacia ripensis/mediterranea)

The coastal illyrian towns had way more intense greek contacts, greek inscriptions, etc.





Comprehension Difficulties
Comprehension relies on mastery of decoding; children who struggle to decode find it difficult to understand and remember what has been read.

Because their efforts to grasp individual words are so exhausting, they have no resources left for understanding.


Signs of comprehension difficulty:


-confusion about the meaning of words and sentences
-inability to connect ideas in a passage
-omission of, or glossing over detail
-difficulty distinguishing significant information from minor details
-lack of concentration during reading

 

[Johane Derite]

He is a big time provoker as well, like a passive-agressive deceitful person, he has probably some insider admin doing the dirty job there, like he provokes people, and him and his friends report his posts so as to have the impression and justification to other admins that the person should be banned. He was even intentionally calling for the E-V13 thread to be closed, because he was irritated from the posts of Riverman.

Yeah, it is pathetic.