J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[mount123]

Yes, 1 sample is a start but we need samples from south bosnia/montenegro/albania to confirm as they would be further from celtic and liburnian influence
Cts10228 has nothing to do with illyrians so that is your problem not mine

That is not the only South Dalmatian Illyrian sample. I doubt you even read the December paper's results.

The J2b-L283 samples all show similar autosomal components and form their own cluster. The Daunian paper showed us what we can expect from even further southern Illyrians.

 

[Ghurier]

We dont have much or any ancient dna yet located below Neretva so all of this j2b l283 could turn out to be something pre illyrian or maybe liburnian or italo celtic. We need more ancient dna from south europe

Possibly Z638 was all over the eastern adriatic coastline by ~2200 BCE (or at worst 1700 BCE).
I'm more and more thinking that Cetina Culture was possibly Z638-heavy
Then, Y15058 expanded in the middle of them.

Y15058 got significantly affected by Bronze-Age collapse, but it is unclear if this is to link with population movement or simply in-situ recovery post-BA-collapse (we lack temporal and spatial coverage in the area to have a better picture).

Nobody cares what their national myths are. Croats have one of the heaviest autosomal Slavic profile in Balkan Slavs. 70%/80%+ of their paternal DNA is Slavic: It is a known fact that the paternal lineages associated with the diffusion of the Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards are I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches of R1a-M458.

I2a1b-CTS10228 was not assimilated by the Slavs IT IS A SLAVIC MARKER and part of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. It is most diverse in the east and west slavic triangle of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine, the actual place of the original Slavic Urheimat. It came to Southeastern Europe with the Slavic conquest in late antiquity and early Middle Ages.

It is 2022 not 2011.

I-CTS10228 starts diversifying by 1400 BCE ... you have a very early "Slav origin theory" .
After, you are often claiming that "L283 is Illyrians" ... thus Illyrians by 3500 BCE and Illyrians in Nuragic Sardinia by 1000 BCE without steppic admixture ! What a compilation of funny theories.

I-Y3120 was likely "slavidized" around Southern Poland, no earlier then ~0-100 CE, unless you claim a 200 BCE Slavic invasion in greece (maybe it is what you claim ?).
Before Southern Poland and Greece, the location of I-Y3120 is largely open to debate (there is a large diversity of point of view/theories, and little data to have a definitive answear ...).

I267261461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 most Albanians descend from the South Illyrian clade J2b-Z638

Just to put some context :
-This sample is not on any known modern branch of Z638.
-By the time he is living he lack mutations to be Z8421, Y21878, or Y27522 (all those clade where defined when this dude lived).
-If we are generous, he could be on some unknown branch of Z1295.
--> Then at best he split of from Albanian modern clade around 2200-2000 BCE.

Thus, he is a cousin with ~800-600 years of independant propagation (a lot can happen in such time gap).
When on top of that we know that Z638 had a large diversification by 2200 BCE and that nearby Y15058 had large diffusion likely 1800-1700 BCE, this sample is not that indicative.
We know Y15058 is relevant because most Z638 subclades, saves Y27522, shows impact of this diffusion.
Because, for 2022 peoples it is well known that historical-events are matching diversification-events.
Same apply to the northern Z2507- ... not usefull because of its age.

People here strongly dismiss modern distribution, but ancient distribution is just the modern-distribution from the past.
It is affected by the exact same flaws. You cannot interpret these samples without considering the context and all the known dispersion of populations between TMRCA and sample lifetime.

 

[mount123]

Possibly Z638 was all over the eastern adriatic coastline by ~2200 BCE (or at worst 1700 BCE).
I'm more and more thinking that Cetina Culture was possibly Z638-heavy
Then, Y15058 expanded in the middle of them.

Y15058 got significantly affected by Bronze-Age collapse, but it is unclear if this is to link with population movement or simply in-situ recovery post-BA-collapse (we lack temporal and spatial coverage in the area to have a better picture).




I-CTS10228 starts diversifying by 1400 BCE ... you have a very early "Slav origin theory" .
After, you are often claiming that "L283 is Illyrians" ... thus Illyrians by 3500 BCE and Illyrians in Nuragic Sardinia by 1000 BCE without steppic admixture ! What a compilation of funny theories.

I-Y3120 was likely "slavidized" around Southern Poland, no earlier then ~0-100 CE, unless you claim a 200 BCE Slavic invasion in greece (maybe it is what you claim ?).
Before Southern Poland and Greece, the location of I-Y3120 is largely open to debate (there is a large diversity of point of view/theories, and little data to have a definitive answear ...).

People here strongly dismiss modern distribution, but ancient distribution is just the modern-distribution from the past.
It is affected by the exact same flaws. You cannot interpret these samples without considering the context and all the known dispersion of populations between TMRCA and sample lifetime.

You are basing a hypotheses solely on modern distribution. That was a thing in 2011 not 2022. Also this is a J2b-L283/Proto Illyrian thread hence why people most of the time talk about this haplogroup.

(sure and according to you I should call my maternal grandfather who is J2b-Z631 Arthur the Celt descendant or something )

 

[Ghurier]

Yes, 1 sample is a start but we need samples from south bosnia/montenegro/albania to confirm as they would be further from celtic and liburnian influence

Mainly we need southern and northern coverage (the map is fully blank on many places around these L283 samples).
And considering the poor diversity of these L283 samples, the likely didn't expanded from the Adriatic coast, but toward this coast.

Inland samples would also be usefull to test some hypothesis.

Honestly, by EIA for sure I expect Z638+ in the north (North-East Italy, Slovenia, Austria) and the South (Y21045 is for sure already there).

 

[torzio]

The Illyrian samples and repetitive presence of J2b-L283 show a clear pattern.
[FONT=&quot]I4331, 1631-1521 BCE, Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I267261461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 most Albanians descend from the South Illyrian clade J2b-Z638[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
[/FONT]

That sample is NOT southern Illyrian ................Gudnja Cave sits on the Peliesac peninsula in Croatia see map below

 

[mount123]

That sample is NOT southern Illyrian ................Gudnja Cave sits on the Peliesac peninsula in Croatia see map below

That is southern Dalmatia near the modern Montenegrin border. What is your problem?

 

[torzio]

Nobody cares what their national myths are. Croats have one of the heaviest autosomal Slavic profile in Balkan Slavs. 70%/80%+ of their paternal DNA is Slavic: [FONT=&quot]It is a known fact that the paternal lineages associated with the diffusion of the Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards are[/FONT] I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches of R1a-M458.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I2a1b-CTS10228 was not assimilated by the Slavs IT IS A SLAVIC MARKER and part of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. It is most diverse in the east and west slavic triangle of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine, the actual place of the original Slavic Urheimat. It came to Southeastern Europe with the Slavic conquest in late antiquity and early Middle Ages.

It is 2022 not 2011.[/FONT]

you need to cease mixing AD samples with BC samples, they do not go, do not match ............how can that marker in BC times be Slavic ? ................

this thread is not about AD times or samples

 

[torzio]

That is southern Dalmatia near the modern Montenegrin border. What is your problem?

it is north of Dubrovnik
Are you basing your wishful thinking on this map below?........good luck



Pleraei

 

[Fustan]

Yes, 1 sample is a start but we need samples from south bosnia/montenegro/albania to confirm as they would be further from celtic and liburnian influence
Cts10228 has nothing to do with illyrians so that is your problem not mine

I feel like you're the only one I agree with right now, and at first I misunderstood you thinking you denied J2-L283 as an Illyrian haplogroup. Now I see that your position is more nuanced, and I totally agree we just need way more Illyrian samples from Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo. People are making way too many conclusions with lack of data.

 

[Trojet]

Possibly Z638 was all over the eastern adriatic coastline by ~2200 BCE (or at worst 1700 BCE).
I'm more and more thinking that Cetina Culture was possibly Z638-heavy
Then, Y15058 expanded in the middle of them.

Y15058 got significantly affected by Bronze-Age collapse, but it is unclear if this is to link with population movement or simply in-situ recovery post-BA-collapse (we lack temporal and spatial coverage in the area to have a better picture).




I-CTS10228 starts diversifying by 1400 BCE ... you have a very early "Slav origin theory" .
After, you are often claiming that "L283 is Illyrians" ... thus Illyrians by 3500 BCE and Illyrians in Nuragic Sardinia by 1000 BCE without steppic admixture ! What a compilation of funny theories.

I-Y3120 was likely "slavidized" around Southern Poland, no earlier then ~0-100 CE, unless you claim a 200 BCE Slavic invasion in greece (maybe it is what you claim ?).
Before Southern Poland and Greece, the location of I-Y3120 is largely open to debate (there is a large diversity of point of view/theories, and little data to have a definitive answear ...).




Just to put some context :
-This sample is not on any known modern branch of Z638.
-By the time he is living he lack mutations to be Z8421, Y21878, or Y27522 (all those clade where defined when this dude lived).
-If we are generous, he could be on some unknown branch of Z1295.
--> Then at best he split of from Albanian modern clade around 2200-2000 BCE.

Thus, he is a cousin with ~800-600 years of independant propagation (a lot can happen in such time gap).
When on top of that we know that Z638 had a large diversification by 2200 BCE and that nearby Y15058 had large diffusion likely 1800-1700 BCE, this sample is not that indicative.
We know Y15058 is relevant because most Z638 subclades, saves Y27522, shows impact of this diffusion.
Because, for 2022 peoples it is well known that historical-events are matching diversification-events.
Same apply to the northern Z2507- ... not usefull because of its age.

People here strongly dismiss modern distribution, but ancient distribution is just the modern-distribution from the past.
It is affected by the exact same flaws. You cannot interpret these samples without considering the context and all the known dispersion of populations between TMRCA and sample lifetime.

He is not, because the Gudnja cave sample is actually proven negative for many SNPs downstream of J-Z1297 (you can see this in the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map), with the exception of Z1295, so he is either ~J-Z1297* or ~J-Z1295*. He obviously didn't live that far in time after J-Z1297 mutation itself formed, and therefore would be lacking many other SNPs that were formed later.

But it's great to see you're making some progress with regards to the J-Z638's origin although I would agree with Aspurg that Posušje culture is probably a better fit.

 

[Ghurier]

You are basing a hypotheses solely on modern distribution.

No, it is an analysis involving:
--> Diversity of modern clades
--> Diversification dynamics
--> Known archeological-documented events

You are basing all your conclusion on undersampled ancient DNA (which is in fact no different than modern DNA, just with a little bit less convolution, but a very-very bad coverage).

according to you I should call my maternal grandfather who is J2b-Z631 Arthur the Celt descendant or something

Ok, I understand your issue now ... as it is "touching" your own history, you are getting emotional !
Then, you obviously confuse Haplogroups with Cultures, they are not the same.
Haplogroups carriers can exit, enter, or change of culture with time ...
If your grandfather is a Celt, then you are a time-traveller (nice to meet you, from when did you arrived ?).
From what I understand, your grandfather is an Albanian. As you ! Spoilers: none of you are "Illyrians" (some of your ancestors likey were ... but you also likely have a vast diversity of origin if we go 3000 ybp).
Y-DNA is not a culture and Y-DNA didn't summerize all your origins ! Your paternal line is no more important (biologicaly) than any other branch. Then, if you give more importance to your paternal line, it is something between you and you !

To be direct, Z631 likely formed around Slovenia/Austria, yes. The current evidence from both ancient DNA and diversification dynamic are not letting much space at that point. If you want to start Z631 in the southern Balkans, some have to migrate north very early, very fast, and way before roman times (if you provide a working mechanism, we can discuss it).

For instance, you can check a very simple statistical criteria : "diversification correlation".
-When one clade is expanding nearby other, the nearby clades will experience "small" diversification events (induced by population movements caused by the expanding population).
-This is not true for all nearby-clades, just a fraction of them will face such event. Then, to check this you need a large set of clades (what you have with Z631 by roman time for exemple).
-For instance, not seing BA-collapse for Z631 is no big-deal (even if they were likely in an affected area), not seing BA-collapse for all Z597+ branch would be an issue.
-Not seing roman impact on one Z631 would be no big deal, not seing it in all of them ... is a very-very-very big issue considering the number of clades.

For instance, look at the clade for which I think we agree:
-Y15058 : very significant diversification around roman times (this this the type of effect you should see on Z631 if it was affected by the roman conquest and incorporated in Roman army).
-Y21045 : diversification around roman and Slavic times. You can read the history of Albania in the diversification curve of this clade.

Z638 is no different with Y15058, when Y15058 diversifies most Z638 clades are having smal diversification events. This is consistent with what you would expect for nearby clades.

I don't go in details but you see such effect for all haplogroups : it work with R1b, with R1a, with N, with O ... it is really a well known thing : historical-events translate in diversification events.
After, there is people not understanding this probe (because it require some technical skills), or people not liking what it shows that will go wild about it.
But empiracal cases where this probe works is just amazingly good. Of course, interpretation can always be challenged, but dismissing this probe is not serious.


Then, let speak of Z631: nothing happen around roman times ... really nothing ! It didn't work with an Illyrian setting (diversity in Albania is not even that strong considering the level of over-sampling of this country ... Z631 is all over Europe, there is no reasons to believe it didn't went to Albania).
When is Z631 expanding ? Around 900-800 BCE, did we see something in southern Balkanic clades ? No, nothing again, should-we believe that Z631 expanded without affecting nearby populations ?
There is some Y15058 clades that could show some 900 BCE signal but very faint. It is a clade, BY162321, that is identified in 300 BCE at the Hungarian/Austrian border ... not a surprise !

Thus basically, all nearby clades have "similar" diversification histories ... we observe that everywhere, but for Z631 we should abandon this probe because in a given country some peoples are unhappy about the conclusions ?

On top of that, the oldest Z631 is found in Italy by 100 CE with a typical Gaul-like admixture.
This sample is really interresting, because it didn't carry the typical admixture of the location in which he is found.
Therefore, this sample is neither carrying the admixture from its context, neither the admixture for your theoritical origin of all Z631.
And, with this sample existing you are mocking people considering Celtic origin for the haplogroup of this 100 CE man ?
Please, try to be serious.

But anyway, some other Z631 was in the Balkans by that time (and likely before romans ...).
There is some balkanic clump with 600 BCE diversity, showing that they would not have arrived significantly later than ~500 BCE.

My current diffusion models explain all ancient samples + statistical consideration about diversification dynamic.
Then, if you don't like the conclusion, it is not really my concern ... but for sure, the one doing 2011-like work, is maybe the person that is basing all his conclusions on an isolated cousins ~800 years post-split and his strong whish of some ancestral "Illyrian" lineage.

 

[Ghurier]

He is not, because the Gudnja cave sample is actually proven negative for many SNPs downstream of J-Z1297 (you can see this in the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map), with the exception of Z1295, so he is either ~J-Z1297* or ~J-Z1295*.

Thanks, but I think there is no need to repeat what I say :
"-By the time he is living he lack mutations to be Z8421, Y21878, or Y27522 (all those clades were defined when this dude lived)."
"-If we are generous, he could be on some unknown branch of Z1295."

But it's great to see you're making some progress with regards to the J-Z638's origin

Origin, still located with bell-beaker (either north-east Italy or Eastern Alps) .
But Z638-Cetina is a real possibility.
As is a Z638-displacement with Y15058 (that alone annihilate the relance of this sample and Z2507- one).

He obviously didn't live that far in time after J-Z1297 mutation itself formed, and therefore would be lacking many other SNPs that were formed later.

Why ? 800 years is long time ... this affirmation sounds like a weak attemps to present as obvious something that you whish .
Especially considering that this sample is a the border of a giant Y15058 expansion area (with 1700 BCE diversity).

 

[Illyria]

What would this thread be, without ShpataEMadhe bringing back his Italo-Celt-Liburnian J2b2 theory, to make torzio's and ghurier's eyes light up, like kids on Christmas day!

We have a J2b2 sample, dating to 1461BC, below the Neretva river, where the "real Illyrians" were, that is Z638, which is the branch that Albanians are under. Apparently not good enough for our ancient Balkan experts..

We have the Daunian/Messapic samples from Southern Italy, groups that are known to have come from the Balkans, as J2b2, and these people had material culture that was clearly from the West-Balkans, Illyrian traditional wear, jewelry, tattoo symbols etc.

We have the Byzantine era sample from Eastern Serbia, also Z638, from 395CE, matching the Albanian branch. So we have two J-Z638's, one in Illyria, one in Dardania/Moesia, both belonging to the Albanian branch. We have contemporary historians who wrote about Illyrians establishing political dominion of Dardania by at around 500BC, Dardanians allied with other Illyrian tribes many times, and some Illyrians who were previously under Illyrian queen Teuta, joined the Dardani. It's likely this J2b2 came from the South-West Balkans, into Dardania with Illyrians.

Must be those from those Celts and Italics tho... where's all the J2b2 in modern Italians and Celts (British Irish Scottish Welsh)? Surely these people should be high in J2b2! But they aren't... the italo-celt theory doesn't hold weight

 

[Ghurier]

What would this thread be, without ShpataEMadhe bringing back his Italo-Celt-Liburnian J2b2 theory, to make torzio's and ghurier's eyes light up, like kids on Christmas day!

J-L283 is not Celtic ... Celts didn't existed by 3500 BCE.
J-L283 is possibly Trypillian or maybe Steppic (not very convinced by this one, but it is not completely discarded yet).

Then, J-Z597 is at worst in the Bell-Beaker border.

... and many, many refinement depending on each clades ... some of them injected in Celts (like the La Tène Hungarian under BY162321)

We even have a Z631 with Celtic admixture ...
Ancient DNA and diversification dynamics aligns, this case is fairly simple to solve .

 

[mount123]

No, it is an analysis involving:
--> Diversity of modern clades
--> Diversification dynamics
--> Known archeological-documented events

You are basing all your conclusion on undersampled ancient DNA (which is in fact no different than modern DNA, just with a little bit less convolution, but a very-very bad coverage).



Ok, I understand your issue now ... as it is "touching" your own history, you are getting emotional !
Then, you obviously confuse Haplogroups with Cultures, they are not the same.
Haplogroups carriers can exit, enter, or change of culture with time ...
If your grandfather is a Celt, then you are a time-traveller (nice to meet you, from when did you arrived ?).
From what I understand, your grandfather is an Albanian. As you ! Spoilers: none of you are "Illyrians" (some of your ancestors likey were ... but you also likely have a vast diversity of origin if we go 3000 ybp).
Y-DNA is not a culture and Y-DNA didn't summerize all your origins ! Your paternal line is no more important (biologicaly) than any other branch. Then, if you give more importance to your paternal line, it is something between you and you !

To be direct, Z631 likely formed around Slovenia/Austria, yes. The current evidence from both ancient DNA and diversification dynamic are not letting much space at that point. If you want to start Z631 in the southern Balkans, some have to migrate north very early, very fast, and way before roman times (if you provide a working mechanism, we can discuss it).

For instance, you can check a very simple statistical criteria : "diversification correlation".
-When one clade is expanding nearby other, the nearby clades will experience "small" diversification events (induced by population movements caused by the expanding population).
-This is not true for all nearby-clades, just a fraction of them will face such event. Then, to check this you need a large set of clades (what you have with Z631 by roman time for exemple).
-For instance, not seing BA-collapse for Z631 is no big-deal (even if they were likely in an affected area), not seing BA-collapse for all Z597+ branch would be an issue.
-Not seing roman impact on one Z631 would be no big deal, not seing it in all of them ... is a very-very-very big issue considering the number of clades.

For instance, look at the clade for which I think we agree:
-Y15058 : very significant diversification around roman times (this this the type of effect you should see on Z631 if it was affected by the roman conquest and incorporated in Roman army).
-Y21045 : diversification around roman and Slavic times. You can read the history of Albania in the diversification curve of this clade.

Z638 is no different with Y15058, when Y15058 diversifies most Z638 clades are having smal diversification events. This is consistent with what you would expect for nearby clades.

I don't go in details but you see such effect for all haplogroups : it work with R1b, with R1a, with N, with O ... it is really a well known thing : historical-events translate in diversification events.
After, there is people not understanding this probe (because it require some technical skills), or people not liking what it shows that will go wild about it.
But empiracal cases where this probe works is just amazingly good. Of course, interpretation can always be challenged, but dismissing this probe is not serious.


Then, let speak of Z631: nothing happen around roman times ... really nothing ! It didn't work with an Illyrian setting (diversity in Albania is not even that strong considering the level of over-sampling of this country ... Z631 is all over Europe, there is no reasons to believe it didn't went to Albania).
When is Z631 expanding ? Around 900-800 BCE, did we see something in southern Balkanic clades ? No, nothing again, should-we believe that Z631 expanded without affecting nearby populations ?
There is some Y15058 clades that could show some 900 BCE signal but very faint. It is a clade, BY162321, that is identified in 300 BCE at the Hungarian/Austrian border ... not a surprise !

Thus basically, all nearby clades have "similar" diversification histories ... we observe that everywhere, but for Z631 we should abandon this probe because in a given country some peoples are unhappy about the conclusions ?

On top of that, the oldest Z631 is found in Italy by 100 CE with a typical Gaul-like admixture.
This sample is really interresting, because it didn't carry the typical admixture of the location in which he is found.
Therefore, this sample is neither carrying the admixture from its context, neither the admixture for your theoritical origin of all Z631.
And, with this sample existing you are mocking people considering Celtic origin for the haplogroup of this 100 CE man ?
Please, try to be serious.

But anyway, some other Z631 was in the Balkans by that time (and likely before romans ...).
There is some balkanic clump with 600 BCE diversity, showing that they would not have arrived significantly later than ~500 BCE.

My current diffusion models explain all ancient samples + statistical consideration about diversification dynamic.
Then, if you don't like the conclusion, it is not really my concern ... but for sure, the one doing 2011-like work, is maybe the person that is basing all his conclusions on an isolated cousins ~800 years post-split and his strong whish of some ancestral "Illyrian" lineage.

Slán agus guím aistear sábháilte ort.

 

[Illyria]

It blows my mind when people say things like, "Well Northern Illyrians had Celtic shields and Gaul/Celt admixture, so they can't be true Illyrians"

But they don't apply that logic to Southern Illyrians, or any other group (every group has influences from neighbors)

Southern Illyrians had Macedonian/Dorian shields, and probably had more Southern shifted Greek-like admixture.. so they must not be true Illyrians..

If Northern Illyrians can't be true Illyrians because they were influenced by Celts, then Southern Illyrians can't be true Illyrians either because they were influenced by Greeks! How insane does that sound? As if the ancestors of Albanians can't be anything because they were influenced by other groups... like every other people in Europe... Are Greeks not true Greeks because they were influenced by Thracians and Illyrians?

Where does one draw the line haha. Every group was influenced by their neighbors. Are Northern Italians not true Italians because they have Celtic admixture? No, they are true Italians, only the Albanian must have pure, isolated ancestors!

 

[Ghurier]

Slán agus guím aistear sábháilte ort.

Adios amigos !

 

[Ghurier]

No, they are true Italians, only the Albanian must have pure, isolated ancestors!

Implying a lot of consanguinity ...

 

[Illyria]

Implying a lot of consanguinity ...

Update your sarcasm detector to the latest firmware update, and then read my post again

 

[mount123]

It blows my mind when people say things like, "Well Northern Illyrians had Celtic shields and Gaul/Celt admixture, so they can't be true Illyrians"

But they don't apply that logic to Southern Illyrians, or any other group (every group has influences from neighbors)

Southern Illyrians had Macedonian/Dorian shields, and probably had more Southern shifted Greek-like admixture.. so they must not be true Illyrians..

If Northern Illyrians can't be true Illyrians because they were influenced by Celts, then Southern Illyrians can't be true Illyrians either because they were influenced by Greeks! How insane does that sound? As if the ancestors of Albanians can't be anything because they were influenced by other groups... like every other people in Europe... Are Greeks not true Greeks because they were influenced by Thracians and Illyrians?

Where does one draw the line haha. Every group was influenced by their neighbors. Are Northern Italians not true Italians because they have Celtic admixture? No, they are true Italians, only the Albanian must have pure, isolated ancestors!

Those are clearly Illyrian samples so that is not up for debate. No one cares what that internet persona thinks.

Why the hell would you expect South Illyrians to be Greek like in autosomal DNA?