J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Riverman]

I wonder if they'll find an ancient E-V13 sample from the South Western Balkans, matching an Albanian branch. We have E-V13 Thracians, Scythians, Avars, etc, so I don't think it would be surprising if some E-V13 became incorporated into the Illyrian sphere, early on.

Same with Greece and Italy, I'm sure with more samples in the future, we'll see which branches of E-V13 is Dorian, or Thracian, or Illyrian, Arvanite, etc

It seems E-V13 branched off in many directions in antiquity, contributing a minor or major role in various ethnic groups, given its modern spread and frequency, while J2b2 was more confined to the West, while today it's more confined to the South-West Balkans, only popping up in negligible amounts elsewhere.

Channelled Ware spread as an intrusive new element as far as Troy and Macedonia, and we already know they came at least close to Albania fairly early, even more so in Southern Pannonia. This means they mixed at least since the LBA in some areas, in which some Illyrian-Thracian amalgamates emerged, usually by one side conquering the other in the Iron Age.
But this also meanst hat the great majority of E-V13 is not to be expected before about 1.300 BC the earliest.

 

[enter_tain]

I wonder if they'll find an ancient E-V13 sample from the South Western Balkans, matching an Albanian branch. We have E-V13 Thracians, Scythians, Avars, etc, so I don't think it would be surprising if some E-V13 became incorporated into the Illyrian sphere, early on.

Same with Greece and Italy, I'm sure with more samples in the future, we'll see which branches of E-V13 is Dorian, or Thracian, or Illyrian, Arvanite, etc

It seems E-V13 branched off in many directions in antiquity, contributing a minor or major role in various ethnic groups, given its modern spread and frequency, while J2b2 was more confined to the West, while today it's more confined to the South-West Balkans, only popping up in negligible amounts elsewhere.

Like Riverman stated, there seems to be a division with regards to the main 3 Balkanic groups in terms of timeline

R1b - Early Bronze Age
J2b2 - Middle Bronze Age
EV13 - Late Bronze Age

So during the early days of the Proto-Illyrians you're not going to get much EV-13. It's something that will rise frequency with time, especially during the last few hundred years where there's a giant bottleneck amongst northern Albanian tribes.

If your Albanian is in good shape, Rrenjet.com has a good summary

https://rrenjet.com/

 

[mount123]

Like Riverman stated, there seems to be a division with regards to the main 3 Balkanic groups in terms of timeline

R1b - Early Bronze Age
J2b2 - Middle Bronze Age
EV13 - Late Bronze Age

So during the early days of the Proto-Illyrians you're not going to get much EV-13. It's something that will rise frequency with time, especially during the last few hundred years where there's a giant bottleneck amongst northern Albanian tribes.

If your Albanian is in good shape, Rrenjet.com has a good summary

https://rrenjet.com/

Why would you expect E-V13 to be en mass represented in Proto Illyrians in the first place? E1b-V13 has a very eastern pathway in comparison to J2b-L283 which has an obvious Western pathway.

 

[Riverman]

Why would you expect E-V13 to be en mass represented in Proto Illyrians in the first place? E1b-V13 has a very eastern pathway in comparison to J2b-L283 which has an obvious Western pathway.

That's not what he wrote. The point is, when Channelled Ware and later Psenichevo-Basarabi expanded from the LBA onwards, they came down the Morava valley and both crossed at times as well as settled at the borderline of the old Illyrians. So since the LBA, they were just there, these Channelled Ware/Psenichevo-Basarabi people = Daco-Thracians. And because they had constant contacts, the numbers of E-V13 were rising in Illyrians and the numbers of J-L283 were rising in Thracians. It was an exchange, many times because one side just conquered the other, and in later periods they often kept the defeated as allies, peasants or slaves, especially when they began to form states.
In the migration period, the transitional period of the MBA-LBA-EIA, there was way more replacement, especially of the males, which kind of cleansed many regions from competing people and lineages. That's why a lot of the distribution dates back to that time, rather than later ones and why we get such high numbers of E-V13 along the Danube and Tisza, but way more J-L283 along the coast and in the Illyrian centres. Where they overlap, which was a fairly broad zone, we will find both in the IA and splinters here and there everywhere on the long run.

 

[enter_tain]

Why would you expect E-V13 to be en mass represented in Proto Illyrians in the first place? E1b-V13 has a very eastern pathway in comparison to J2b-L283 which has an obvious Western pathway.

Didn't really say "en masse". But Pannonians were Illyrians and they had EV-13 in addition to J2B2-L283. 1 YDNA =/= 1 people.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

There are also Romanians and Aromanians who fall under the same J2b2-L283 subclades as Albanians and even some R1b-BY611 from what I have seen. I am not sure of their tmrca but It's like saying that this haplogroup was also from the East Balkans when I have already demonstrated that the Vlachs are most likely descendants from the West/Central Balkans where you can still find some of their toponyms. And the branches have been found in ancient samples from the Western Balkans. If you want to prove that the Romanian language originated in Romania then be my guess. Come with some compelling evidence. How about the fact that Romania was almost never under Roman occupation for most of it's history and has probably been inhabited by Hungarians and other groups of people since 900 AD ? The Vlach homeland stretched from Western/Central Balkans and as East as Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria but that was about as close as it gets to a Thracian/Dacian homeland.
Ayway here is a link to the Rrenjet project rrenjet.com/statistikat/ which shows the results of all the regions. And we can even see a decent amount of I2a1b, R1a and I1 in some Albanian regions, although it could also be that the samples are low for these specific regions as when you count the country all together it's not as high. There is no shame in it. It shows our ancestors had the ability to assimilate others.

I1 has nothing to do with romanians or vlachs - it is ostrogothic and from other germanic tribes maybe prior. Albanians have higher percentage of i1 than romanians and i think this has something to do with south slavs having a much smaller impact on albanian y dna which means the ostrogothic y dna that already became an "arber" survived better there. Or it could be that the ostrogoths fled south/west during the south slavic invasion and found refuge in albania

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Like Riverman stated, there seems to be a division with regards to the main 3 Balkanic groups in terms of timeline
R1b - Early Bronze Age
J2b2 - Middle Bronze Age
EV13 - Late Bronze Age
So during the early days of the Proto-Illyrians you're not going to get much EV-13. It's something that will rise frequency with time, especially during the last few hundred years where there's a giant bottleneck amongst northern Albanian tribes.
If your Albanian is in good shape, Rrenjet.com has a good summary
https://rrenjet.com/

Illyrians didnt form until roughly 9th century BC which is actually on or after the LATE bronze age going into iron age. The "real illyrians" were located below river Neretva -

"The following anthroponyms derive from Illyrian or are not yet connected with another language unless noted, such as the Delmatae names of Liburnian origin. Alföldy identified five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:[dubious – discuss] 1) the "real" Illyrians south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Epirus; 2) the Delmatae, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the "real Illyrians" to the south and the Liburni to the north; 3) the Liburni, a branch of Venetic in the northeast Adriatic; 4) the Iapodes, who dwelt north of the Delmatae and behind (inland from) the coastal Liburnians; 5) the Pannonians in the northern lands, and in Bosnia, northern Montenegro and Western Serbia.[citation needed] Katičić does not recognize a separate Pannonian onomastic area, and includes the Pannoni with the Delmatae.[62] Below, names from four of Alföldy's five onomastic areas are listed, Liburnian excluded, having been identified as being akin to Venetic. A Dardanian area is also detailed."

The "real illyrians" were south of River Neretva - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neretva

We dont have much or any ancient dna yet located below Neretva so all of this j2b l283 could turn out to be something pre illyrian or maybe liburnian or italo celtic. We need more ancient dna from south europe

 

[mount123]

Illyrians didnt form until roughly 9th century BC which is actually on or after the LATE bronze age going into iron age. The "real illyrians" were located below river Neretva -
"The following anthroponyms derive from Illyrian or are not yet connected with another language unless noted, such as the Delmatae names of Liburnian origin. Alföldy identified five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:[dubious – discuss] 1) the "real" Illyrians south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Epirus; 2) the Delmatae, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the "real Illyrians" to the south and the Liburni to the north; 3) the Liburni, a branch of Venetic in the northeast Adriatic; 4) the Iapodes, who dwelt north of the Delmatae and behind (inland from) the coastal Liburnians; 5) the Pannonians in the northern lands, and in Bosnia, northern Montenegro and Western Serbia.[citation needed] Katičić does not recognize a separate Pannonian onomastic area, and includes the Pannoni with the Delmatae.[62] Below, names from four of Alföldy's five onomastic areas are listed, Liburnian excluded, having been identified as being akin to Venetic. A Dardanian area is also detailed."
The "real illyrians" were south of River Neretva - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neretva
We dont have much or any ancient dna yet located below Neretva so all of this j2b l283 could turn out to be something pre illyrian or maybe liburnian or italo celtic. We need more ancient dna from south europe

They are mainly Iapodes and Delmatae samples and clearly Illyrian.

 

[torzio]

Illyrians didnt form until roughly 9th century BC which is actually on or after the LATE bronze age going into iron age. The "real illyrians" were located below river Neretva -
"The following anthroponyms derive from Illyrian or are not yet connected with another language unless noted, such as the Delmatae names of Liburnian origin. Alföldy identified five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:[dubious – discuss] 1) the "real" Illyrians south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Epirus; 2) the Delmatae, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the "real Illyrians" to the south and the Liburni to the north; 3) the Liburni, a branch of Venetic in the northeast Adriatic; 4) the Iapodes, who dwelt north of the Delmatae and behind (inland from) the coastal Liburnians; 5) the Pannonians in the northern lands, and in Bosnia, northern Montenegro and Western Serbia.[citation needed] Katičić does not recognize a separate Pannonian onomastic area, and includes the Pannoni with the Delmatae.[62] Below, names from four of Alföldy's five onomastic areas are listed, Liburnian excluded, having been identified as being akin to Venetic. A Dardanian area is also detailed."
The "real illyrians" were south of River Neretva - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neretva
We dont have much or any ancient dna yet located below Neretva so all of this j2b l283 could turn out to be something pre illyrian or maybe liburnian or italo celtic. We need more ancient dna from south europe

Illyrians formed circa 1600Bc around modern Austria and Slovenia ...which is why they are named as Halstatt culture phase one 1000BC with the migrating celts from southern Germany

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Illyrians formed circa 1600Bc around modern Austria and Slovenia ...which is why they are named as Halstatt culture phase one 1000BC with the migrating celts from southern Germany

I think you are confusing illyrians with something else, maybe italo celts or venetic/liburnians. The corinthians kicked out the liburnians from kerkyra (around 750bc) and then they moved north to ancient croatia

The greeks also had colonies in ancient croatia in 300BC so it doesnt make sense for illyrians to be settled in this part of crotia -
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe....png/1280px-GreekCitiesMapIllyriaAdriatic.png

I doubt the illyrians expanded from austria, it makes more sense that they came from the east and settled west along the adriatic after pushing out some greek colonies, illyrians settled all the way down to today's northern greece

Also, some so called illyrians were constantly at war with each other which doesnt make sense for people from the same background, I think the origin of the "northern illyrians" is disputed, they were likely mixed people with different languages

"After the Daorsi were attacked by the Delmatae,[15] they joined Issa[16] in seeking the protection of the Roman state. The Daorsi abandoned Caravantius and fought on the side of the Romans, contributing with their strong navy. After the Illyrian Wars the Romans gave the Daorsi immunity."

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

They are mainly Iapodes and Delmatae samples and clearly Illyrian.

Iapodes were mixed people mostly of liburnian/venetic origin and mixed with celts - they carried celtic weapons and they dwelt north of the liburni! They werent illyrians or only maybe partly illyrian (genetically)

 

[Riverman]

The Illyrians had clear and obvious relations to the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture. We already have TC related finds with J-L283. They just managed to keep on top in the central and Southern groups and moved constantly forward. The Pannonian Illyrians later transformed to the Middle Danubian Urnfielders, with additional Alpine-Upper Danubian influence, Bell Beaker R1b, whereas the Southern groups kept the inhumation tradition and clan burials, a more conservative stance, and pushed to the South East.

 

[mount123]

If only j-l283 is illyrian (which is complete nonsense by the way) - croatians have just 3% illyrian dna today, i am sure they would be happy to hear that....

Nobody cares what their national myths are. Croats have one of the heaviest autosomal Slavic profile in Balkan Slavs. 70%/80%+ of their paternal DNA is Slavic: [FONT=&quot]It is a known fact that the paternal lineages associated with the diffusion of the Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards are[/FONT] I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches of R1a-M458.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I2a1b-CTS10228 was not assimilated by the Slavs IT IS A SLAVIC MARKER and part of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. It is most diverse in the east and west slavic triangle of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine, the actual place of the original Slavic Urheimat. It came to Southeastern Europe with the Slavic conquest in late antiquity and early Middle Ages.

It is 2022 not 2011.[/FONT]

 

[mount123]

Iapodes were mixed people mostly of liburnian/venetic origin and mixed with celts - they carried celtic weapons and they dwelt north of the liburni! They werent illyrians or only maybe partly illyrian (genetically)

The Illyrian samples and repetitive presence of J2b-L283 show a clear pattern.
[FONT=&quot]I4331, 1631-1521 BCE, Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I267261461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 most Albanians descend from the South Illyrian clade J2b-Z638[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
[/FONT]

 

[Trojet]

The Illyrians had clear and obvious relations to the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture. We already have TC related finds with J-L283. They just managed to keep on top in the central and Southern groups and moved constantly forward. The Pannonian Illyrians later transformed to the Middle Danubian Urnfielders, with additional Alpine-Upper Danubian influence, Bell Beaker R1b, whereas the Southern groups kept the inhumation tradition and clan burials, a more conservative stance, and pushed to the South East.

This is news to me. Care to elaborate?

I thought your boy Aspurg made it clear to you that J-L283 in Dalmatian coast predates the Tumulus Culture or it doesn't have any obvious links to it.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

The Illyrian samples and repetitive presence of J2b-L283 show a clear pattern.
[FONT=&quot]I4331, 1631-1521 BCE, Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I267261461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 most Albanians descend from the South Illyrian clade J2b-Z638[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
[/FONT]

All the samples of j2b are in mid/north croatia and we have no samples yet from south of river neretva - we can confirm that j2b l283 is illyrian once we get some ancient dna from south bosnia, montenegro or albania. Do you realise that liburnians (non illyrians) were in croatia from 700bc? Do you also understand that celts had a big influence in pannonia and ancient croatia?

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Nobody cares what their national myths are. Croats have one of the heaviest autosomal Slavic profile in Balkan Slavs. 70%/80%+ of their paternal DNA is Slavic: [FONT=&quot]It is a known fact that the paternal lineages associated with the diffusion of the Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards are[/FONT] I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches of R1a-M458.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I2a1b-CTS10228 was not assimilated by the Slavs IT IS A SLAVIC MARKER and part of the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. It is most diverse in the east and west slavic triangle of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine, the actual place of the original Slavic Urheimat. It came to Southeastern Europe with the Slavic conquest in late antiquity and early Middle Ages.
It is 2022 not 2011.[/FONT]

Maybe croatia never had much illyrian activity, only a few expanding tribes.

Anyway, no idea why you saying all this to me - i never suggested cts10228 wasnt south slavic but just so you know croatia has 3x as much v13 than j2b l283

Their slavic y dna is over 50%, not over 70% or 80%, i would think some of their r1a and r1b is probably german as they also have near 6% i1 -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Croats

 

[Trojet]

The Illyrian samples and repetitive presence of J2b-L283 show a clear pattern.
[FONT=&quot]I4331, 1631-1521 BCE, Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I267261461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297 most Albanians descend from the South Illyrian clade J2b-Z638[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507
[/FONT]

That's right.

Don't forget the Daunian/Messapian samples too.

So everything suggests that J-L283 was an important haplogroup among the Illyrians.

Speaking of Neretva river, I26726, the ancient sample that's phylogenetically closer to the vast majority of Albanian J-L283, is literally south of Neretva

 

[mount123]

All the samples of j2b are in mid/north croatia and we have no samples yet from south of river neretva - we can confirm that j2b l283 is illyrian once we get some ancient dna from south bosnia, montenegro or albania. Do you realise that liburnians (non illyrians) were in croatia from 700bc? Do you also understand that celts had a big influence in pannonia and ancient croatia?

Can you read? The J2b-Z638 Illyrian is a south Dalmatian sample. These samples are Illyrian, so that is not up for debate. If you choose to refuse to accept scientific facts than that is your problem not mine. Cope with your "we E1b and Slavic I2-CTS10228 Ilirijan and sheet" somewhere else I am sure there are a lot of ultranationalistic fora that will wholeheartedly welcome you.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Can you read? The J2b-Z638 Illyrian is a south Dalmatian sample. These samples are Illyrian, so that is not up for debate. If you choose to refuse to accept scientific facts than that is your problem not mine. Cope with your "we E1b-V13 and Slavic I2-CTS10228 Ilirijan and sheet" somewhere else I am sure there are a lot of ultranationalistic fora that will wholeheartedly welcome you.

Yes, 1 sample is a start but we need samples from south bosnia/montenegro/albania to confirm as they would be further from celtic and liburnian influence

Cts10228 has nothing to do with illyrians so that is your problem not mine