Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

For the hundredth time. It is not about the "um" suffix, but about the reflex of the syllabic resonants: /r̩/ /l̩/ /m̩/ /n̩/


In Albanian, /n̩/ gave /a/ for example: Indo European. *mn̩ti- gave Albanian. Mati whereas in Illyrian, this would be Munti.


Matzinger never supported the Bessi hypothesis, so you guys probably haven't even read his work but other people's misinterpretations.

This is an important insight that Matzinger has provided.

We know that Illyrian would give **Munti where albanian gives Mati, and that Messapic would give **Manti, so still a bit different to Albanian although closer.

(In Messapic Indo European. /n̩/ gave /an/ while in Albanian, IE. /n̩/ gave /a/)

Matzinger accepts Mati as an early Albanian toponym, so this sets a time limit for when proto-Albanian speakers must have at the least been in Mat, Albania. (Around the 400s AD)

 

[Johane Derite]

On a more updated distribution of Channeled ware in Albania.

The people that would have brought channelled ware to Albania would not have been speaking the Glasinac illyrian language.

Source: https://aegeobalkanprehistory.kreas...bania-from-bronze-to-iron-age-in-the-balkans/

 

[Riverman]

On a more updated distribution of Channeled ware in Albania.
The people that would have brought channelled ware to Albania would not have been speaking the Glasinac illyrian language.
Source: https://aegeobalkanprehistory.kreas...bania-from-bronze-to-iron-age-in-the-balkans/

That's an interesting map, do you know to which group the Kannelure/Channelled Pottery was ascribed to?

 

[Johane Derite]

That's an interesting map, do you know to which group the Kannelure/Channelled Pottery was ascribed to?

Just generally says tumuli in North Albania:



"On Fine Dark fabric one finds the so-called “kanellure” decoration, or fine parallel ribbing, which is contemporary to the matt-painted decoration but generally characteristic of tumuli in northern Albania.

In Fine Light fabric a number of vessels feature small rounded projections (or mastoi) placed opposite the handle at the point of maximum diameter; although these projections usually number three, both at Lofkënd and at contemporaneous sites across Albania, one piece from Lofkënd features four projections. Projections and other types of plastic decoration, such as finger-impressed bands, also occur on fragments of semi-coarse and coarse ware."

You can see that channeling appears in the Late Bronze Age on the pottery

 

[Johane Derite]

On a more updated distribution of Channeled ware in Albania.
The people that would have brought channelled ware to Albania would not have been speaking the Glasinac illyrian language.
Source: https://aegeobalkanprehistory.kreas...bania-from-bronze-to-iron-age-in-the-balkans/

The regions where channeled ware appears in Albania and Kosova are obviously very relevant to the Dardani and the Albanoi also (Mat, Krumë, Romajë, Pazhok).

Could this injection of channeled ware people into these regions have left any linguistic trace?

 

[Riverman]

It's interesting that Channelled Ware influences probably reached quite far in Albania fairly early:

Plastic Decoration occurs much less frequently than matt-painting, primarily in two different forms almost completely restricted to the two different types of fine fabric (Fig. 7). On Fine Dark fabric one finds the so-called ?kanellure? decoration, or fine parallel ribbing, which is contemporary to the matt-painted decoration but generally characteristic of tumuli in northern Albania. In Fine Light fabric a number of vessels feature small rounded projections (or mastoi) placed opposite the handle at the point of maximum diameter; although these projections usually number three, both at Lofk?nd and at contemporaneous sites across Albania, one piece from Lofk?nd features four projections. Projections and other types of plastic decoration, such as finger-impressed bands, also occur on fragments of semi-coarse and coarse ware.

https://aegeobalkanprehistory.kreas...bania-from-bronze-to-iron-age-in-the-balkans/

This would also explain, why, even if these influences would have brought E-V13 at the end of the Bronze Age to Albania, little to none was found in Italian remains, like those from Daunians. It's also worth to note that to this day some E-V13 haplogroups have a rather stronger concentration in the North of Albania and Kosovo, while at the Central-Southern coast and inner area its the lowest:

It might go to far to attribute that to the LBA-EIA, considering how many later movements took place. But it should be clear that most of the E-V13 in Albania has to come from two directions: From the North and from the East, almost never from the West and rarely from the South. The main route of the Channelled Ware people South was along the Morava valley and the Vardar. This trend persisted in later times also, because Basarabi and Psenichevo influences were stronger in Macedonia.

But this far reaching influence of early Channelled Ware, at least in the ceramic productions, opens up new possibilities for an early spread of E-V13 deep into (Northern) Albania already in the transitional period and Early Iron Age.

Did anyone have heard about Lorenc Bejko, Cremation burials in Albania between 1300 and 750 BC? What did he say about the connections of these cremation burials? If they would be related to Belegis II-G?va, it would be a clear cut case. If they were instead related to the Middle Danubian Urnfield group, its different.

 

[Riverman]

The regions where channeled ware appears in Albania and Kosova are obviously very relevant to the Dardani and the Albanoi also (Mat, Krumë, Romajë, Pazhok).

Could this injection of channeled ware people into these regions have left any linguistic trace?

We have to consider how many changes and layers followed, as well as how much of an influence led to the spread of the style. Crucial are in this respect the cremation burials, both their context (Belegis II-G?va vs. Middle Danubian Urnfield) and frequency, general distribution.

That's why this work on cremation burials in Albania is so important, especially the work of Lorenc Bejko, Cremation burials in Albania between 1300 and 750 BC, I read about but couldn't find anywhere.

 

[Johane Derite]

It's interesting that Channelled Ware influences probably reached quite far in Albania fairly early:


This would also explain, why, even if these influences would have brought E-V13 at the end of the Bronze Age to Albania, little to none was found in Italian remains, like those from Daunians. It's also worth to note that to this day some E-V13 haplogroups have a rather stronger concentration in the North of Albania and Kosovo, while at the Central-Southern coast and inner area its the lowest:


It might go to far to attribute that to the LBA-EIA, considering how many later movements took place. But it should be clear that most of the E-V13 in Albania has to come from two directions: From the North and from the East, almost never from the West and rarely from the South. The main route of the Channelled Ware people South was along the Morava valley and the Vardar. This trend persisted in later times also, because Basarabi and Psenichevo influences were stronger in Macedonia.

But this far reaching influence of early Channelled Ware, at least in the ceramic productions, opens up new possibilities for an early spread of E-V13 deep into (Northern) Albania already in the transitional period and Early Iron Age.

Did anyone have heard about Lorenc Bejko, Cremation burials in Albania between 1300 and 750 BC? What did he say about the connections of these cremation burials? If they would be related to Belegis II-G�va, it would be a clear cut case. If they were instead related to the Middle Danubian Urnfield group, its different.

Hm, I'm not aware of that paper actually. I think it was just in the symposium but never published. Please post if you find it.

NNicholas Hammond also wrote that chanelled ware was very prominent in the Mati valley tumuli (marked on the map with number 7) but absent from tumuli of south albania.

 

[Riverman]

Obviously what he means with Lausitz is basically G?va and its descendants. Otherwise a great find.

Its from here:

Unfortunately, not all participants who gave a talk at the
symposium were able to submit a version for publication. The
presentations by Carola Metzner-Nebelsick on ?Cremation
burials of the central Danubian Urnfield culture in North-
west-Hungary and the case study of the Sopron-Krautacker
cemetery? and by Lorenc Bejko titled ?Cremation burials in
Albania between 1300 and 750 BC? could not be added to
this volume.

https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x003ace22.pdf

On researchgate I found nothing going in that direction:
https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Lorenc-Bejko-2061647590

 

[torzio]

That's an interesting map, do you know to which group the Kannelure/Channelled Pottery was ascribed to?

read chapter 4

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...=onepage&q=daunian pottery in croatia&f=false

 

[Hawk]

Proto-Albanoid Shrekoids against Romanization.

 

[Hawk]

But, yeah, it looks like Channeled-Ware was present in Albania and the earliest presence is dated to Late Bronze Age according to Rovena Kurti.

In grave 2 of tumulus4 of Kënetë, the pair of ribbed bracelets is associated by a small kantharos withchanneled decoration (otherwise called kanellure decoration) consisting of widelyspaced vertical or slightly oblique grooves or ribbings, which can be considered asone of the earliest appearances of this type of decoration in LBA Albania.

https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01695818/document

and Agolli

Lofkënd (Albania) tumulus excavation, E. Agolli.18The excavation at the prehistoric burial tumulus of Lofkënd took place from 2004 to 2006 with anadditional study season in 2007. The monograph was published in 2014. The pottery repertoireaccompanies with some intensity three phases of the tumulus construction: Phase II (1200 - 1100 BC),Phase III (1100 - 900 BC) and Phase III-IV (1000 - 900 BC). The assemblage recovered as kterismata iscomprised mainly by two groups, light and dark fine. The light fine is mostly accompanied with mattpainted or plastic decoration whereas the dark fine comes with ribbing or the so-called kanellure decoration(Pl. XCVc). The vessel forms vary from small to medium, classified conventionally as drinking vessels. Interms of quantity, the light fine is slightly more represented. A considerable quantity of fragmentarymaterial was encountered in the soil that filled either the tumulus or the tombs. In addition to the fineware, in the soil were recovered semi-coarse and coarse fragments of medium or large vessels.

https://dial.uclouvain.be/pr/boreal/object/boreal:249304/datastream/PDF_01/view

 

[Johane Derite]

The regions where channeled ware appears in Albania and Kosova are obviously very relevant to the Dardani and the Albanoi also (Mat, Krumë, Romajë, Pazhok).

Could this injection of channeled ware people into these regions have left any linguistic trace?

If the chanelled ware is responsible for the spread of Thracoid languages, then this of course opens up the space for a Thracian related language that was in North Albania & Kosova since the Late Bronze Age.

 

[Johane Derite]

Also this opens up the possibility of at least two competing linguistic stratums within Albania. Possibly the Glasinac Illyrians, and the Chanelled Ware Illyrians.

 

[Hawk]

Also this opens up the possibility of at least two competing linguistic stratums within Albania. Possibly the Glasinac Illyrians, and the Chanelled Ware Illyrians.

I'll associate the Channeled-Ware descendand with Trebeniste Culture (Enchelei, Dassareti, probably Taulanti, probably Pirustii) and these distantly related to Dardanii. Albanian archeologists have been saying for years that, Glasinac-Mat + Trebeniste = Classical Illyrians. If i am right of course. If not or yes, we shall find out anyway.

I have opened a thread here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41957-Who-were-the-people-of-Trebeniste-Culture

 

[Johane Derite]

I'll associate the Channeled-Ware descendand with Trebeniste Culture (Enchelei, Dassareti, probably Taulanti, probably Pirustii) and these distantly related to Dardanii. Albanian archeologists have been saying for years that, Glasinac-Mat + Trebeniste = Classical Illyrians. If i am right of course. If not or yes, we shall find out anyway.
I have opened a thread here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41957-Who-were-the-people-of-Trebeniste-Culture

But I mean which language won out? Was the channeled ware IE language also spoken in Illyria among some tribes, with the pre-channeled ware language spoken in Illyria, Dalmatia, Slovenia, etc, also?
This might explain the Dardani, but also possibly why the Taulanti's first king is Galabrus (compare Dardani tribe Galabroi, Messapic Kalabri). The mat valley tumuli where channeled ware appears in Albania is the region of the Taulanti. If their tribal name is from the channeled ware people it would explain why it matches Albanian Dallënd (swallow).

 

[Hawk]

But I mean which language won out? Was the channeled ware IE language also spoken in Illyria among some tribes, with the pre-channeled ware language spoken in Illyria, Dalmatia, Slovenia, etc, also?
This might explain the Dardani, but also possibly why the Taulanti's first king is Galabrus (compare Dardani tribe Galabroi, Messapic Kalabri). The mat valley tumuli where channeled ware appears in Albania is the region of the Taulanti. If their tribal name is from the channeled ware people it would explain why it matches Albanian Dallënd (swallow).

Who knows, the thing is Albanian archeologists just recently started writing about Kanellure/Channeled-Ware influence, we don't find it in old papers except for Namik Bodinakus writings.

This book might be potentially good on clearing some stuff: https://www.amazon.de/Spheres-Interaction-Relationships-Perspectives-Archaeology/dp/3867571104

The series is based on a new conference series that will take place every 2-3 years in the Balkans and whose first publication was published in 2016 as Godišnjak [Sarajevo] Vol. 47. These proceedings of the second conference in Belgrade in 2017 contain a foreword, prologue, introduction and 14 essays. These deal with the interaction in the M-SBZ of the SW Balkans, similarities and differences of the material culture of the Belegiš II-Gava Group in southern Pannonia and the Morava Basin, burials versus cremations in the SBZ between S-Carpathian Basin and W-Balkans, Dalmatia in the SBZ-FEZ, protective weapons of the SBZ, the settlement of Čepintsi in the SBZ context, settlements and burial grounds of the FEZ in Macedonia, the Sea Peoples and "Balkanism" in the SBZ archaeology, cultural continuity during the SBZ-FEZ in the western March basin , Late Hallstatt contacts between the SE Carpathian Basin and the W Balkans, belt jewelry in women of the 7th/6th c. Century in N Albania, grave customs of the EZ in N Greece, “Monochrome ware” in N Greece from the Late Geometry to the Archaic as well as object biographies of two metal vessels from a grave in Vergina / Aigai. This series is based on a new cycle of conferences to be held every 2 or 3 years in the Balkans, and the first publication of them appeared in 2016 as Godišnjak [Sarajevo] vol. 47. These proceedings of the 2nd conference in Belgrade in 2017 contain a foreword, prologue, introduction, and 14 papers. They deal with the interaction in the SW Balkans in the M-LBA, similarities and differences in the material culture of the Belegiš II-Gava Group in the South Pannonian Plain and Morava Basin, inhumation vs. cremation in the LBA between the South Carpathian Basin and the W-Balkans, Dalmatia in the LBA to EIA, body armor in the LBA, the settlement at Čepintsi in its LBA context, settlements and cemeteries in EIA Macedonia, the Sea Peoples and the discourse of “Balkanism” in LBA archaeology, cultural continuity in the Western Morava Basin in the LBA-EIA, Late Hallstatt connections between the SE-Carpathian Basin and the Western and Central Balkans, female belt adornment in 7th/6th-century N-Albania, IA burial customs in N-Greece, " monochrome ware” in N-Greece from the Late Geometric to the Archaic Period, and life cycles of two metal vessels from a 4th-century grave at Vergina / Aegae.

 

[Riverman]

Who knows, the thing is Albanian archeologists just recently started writing about Kanellure/Channeled-Ware influence, we don't find it in old papers except for Namik Bodinakus writings.

This book might be potentially good on clearing some stuff: https://www.amazon.de/Spheres-Interaction-Relationships-Perspectives-Archaeology/dp/3867571104

In Bulgaria there is also no big scale archaeological coverage of Channelled Ware. Its if this phenomenon wasn't interesting enough to be researched as thoroughly as some others, probably because of its rather intrusive character? Some of the maps, and there are not that many anyway, let the borderline for Channelled Ware end way too much in the North, when in fact its impact was felt quite strongly in much more Southern regions. In areas where the research was better, like areas of Greece and Troy it was found too, not just imports, but people moving in with it, at least its subdivisions, like Knobbed Ware.
Obviously they didn't leap there from the Danube, and where better research was being done, like the Morava-Vardar connection, its being proven that they just pushed Southward and pressed on. In Greece and Anatolia they being stopped and their remnants fused with the locals. Probably something similar happened in Albania?

 

[enter_tain]

If the chanelled ware is responsible for the spread of Thracoid languages, then this of course opens up the space for a Thracian related language that was in North Albania & Kosova since the Late Bronze Age.

How many times must we go through this? Thracian and Dacian have nothing to do with Albanian. Not even your boyfriend Matzinger thinks so. They all named their cities -para -dava and such that conventions are almost non-existent in Albanian.

This guy still hasn't explained why Albanians (Arben) called themselves that and why it is an Albanian word (fields), in the middle of Illyria. These "Thracoids" migrated into Illyria and took on an Illyrian tribe ethnic name for themselves with no records of it happening.

 

[Johane Derite]

Who knows, the thing is Albanian archeologists just recently started writing about Kanellure/Channeled-Ware influence, we don't find it in old papers except for Namik Bodinakus writings.

It was possibly supressed. Bowden mentions in a paper of his how during communist Albania, archaeologists were pressured to supress Slavic & Avar good findings in Komani culture so as to not challenge the narrative of local illyrians becoming Albanoi.

So chanelled ware goods in the heart of north Albania possibly didn't fit their narrative.