Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[enter_tain]

It was possibly supressed. Bowden mentions in a paper of his how during communist Albania, archaeologists were pressured to supress Slavic & Avar good findings in Komani culture so as to not challenge the narrative of local illyrians becoming Albanoi.

So chanelled ware goods in the heart of north Albania possibly didn't fit their narrative.

Firstly, Albanoi, an Illyrian tribe, were Thracians because Delus Mucati is a "Thracian name".

Then, Komani culture is an Asiatic/Avar culture.

Then, Komani is a Latin-Dalmatian culture.

Now, Komani is a Slav AND Avar culture.

Dude, get a life. You've been posting garbage like this for years.

 

[enter_tain]

This guy doesn't even know what he's saying anymore. Every week he contradicts himself.

First he quotes Matzinger saying Albanian is not Thracian. Now it's Thracian. Then it's Avar, then Latino-Dalmatian. Then something about shepherds.

Imagine spending years of life just spreading lies/bullshit on Twitter, Anthrogenica, and god knows what other venues. Truly, get a life.

 

[Hawk]

Calm down Tayna/Taina

 

[torzio]

How many times must we go through this? Thracian and Dacian have nothing to do with Albanian. Not even your boyfriend Matzinger thinks so. They all named their cities -para -dava and such that conventions are almost non-existent in Albanian.

This guy still hasn't explained why Albanians (Arben) called themselves that and why it is an Albanian word (fields), in the middle of Illyria. These "Thracoids" migrated into Illyria and took on an Illyrian tribe ethnic name for themselves with no records of it happening.

my Albanian work buddy has always stated

Albanians refer to themselves as shqiptarë—often taken to mean “sons of eagles,” though it may well refer to “those associated with the shqip (i.e., Albanian) language”—and to their country as Shqipëria.

Never heard them call themselves Arben....which is a celtic word for white IIRC

 

[enter_tain]

my Albanian work buddy has always stated
Albanians refer to themselves as shqiptarë—often taken to mean “sons of eagles,” though it may well refer to “those associated with the shqip (i.e., Albanian) language”—and to their country as Shqipëria.
Never heard them call themselves Arben....which is a celtic word for white IIRC

"Shqiptar" is a more recent term that became popular in the last few centuries. Traditionally, Albanians called themselves Arba/enia (north), and Arberia (south). The n -> r rhotacism, by the way, means the split happened before Slavic migrations, since Slavic loans aren't affected by it but Latin/Greek loans are.

In Italy, you have a 500 year old community still calling themselves "Arbereshe" (of southern Tosk descent). The youngest Albanian state was the Principality of Arbanon, which guess what? Is EXACTLY where the Illyrian Albanoi lived. That's where the country gets its name.

If you want it summarized, I think the wikipedia entry does a decent job

"The word is used in the expressions "Mal e arbën " meaning "mountains and fields", and "Shkojm ne Arbëni" ("to climb down the mountain, to go in the plain land"), thus connecting the word with an original form *arb, related to proto-indo-European *h₂erh₃- (to plow) and proto-Indo-European *h₂erh₃w- (arable land), or 'plain land' (Cognate with Latin Latium from latus (wide), and arvum (corn-field), and Ancient Greek ἄρουρα (arable land) or to proto-germanic *arbaz. Related to arë. The term represents the name of a south Illyrian tribe attested in Ancient Greek Ἀλβανοί, later on denoting a proper name for an ethnic Albanian until (around) the eighteen century when it was replaced with Shqiptar. It is attributed directly to a Latin rendering of the tribal name Albanoi by Orel.^[18]"

 

[Johane Derite]

Wow, they have removed the original quote where this is taken of to create a false impression and to manipulate because they are so desperate. Even going so far as to fill wiktionary and wikipedia with this trash.

The expression "mal e arbën" is only recorded in Kurbin. This part has conveniently been removed from the quote to create an impression that this meaning is present in all Albanian regions. Typical scumbag behaviour.

This is mentioned in Topalli's etymological dictionary where this idea is taken from. This is not a pan-Albanian expression, but a local expression ni Kurbin (close to where Albanopolis is thought to have been).

Also he then clearly writes that the /Alb-/ is the original earlier documented form, likely related to latin. albus (white).

He writes clearly that the Albanian IE word arë (field) would not develop a /b/ as in /arb-/ and so these cannot be etymologically related.

What he does say is that Albanian speakers may have mixed Albanian. arë with /Alb-/ to produce /Arb-/.

This supports proto-Albanians adopting the Albanoi title and not knowing the original etymology because it was a foreign language to them, so they fuse it with the Albanian. arë.

This happened among other migratory populations in the balkans. For example the Strymonites, a Slav tribe that called themselves after their settlement area in the Strymon river.

Likewise we know that Mat is one of the earliest Albanian settlements, and it is probable this is where the name of the Albanoi became adopted by the proto-Albanians.

 

[Johane Derite]

Wow, they have removed the original quote where this is taken of to create a false impression and to manipulate because they are so desperate. Even going so far as to fill wiktionary and wikipedia with this trash.

The expression "mal e arbën" is only recorded in Kurbin. This part has conveniently been removed from the quote to create an impression that this meaning is present in all Albanian regions. Typical scumbag behaviour.

This is mentioned in Topalli's etymological dictionary where this idea is taken from. This is not a pan-Albanian expression, but a local expression ni Kurbin (close to where Albanopolis is thought to have been).

Also he then clearly writes that the /Alb-/ is the original earlier documented form, likely related to latin. albus (white).

He writes clearly that the Albanian IE word arë (field) would not develop a /b/ as in /arb-/ and so these cannot be etymologically related.

What he does say is that Albanian speakers may have mixed Albanian. arë with /Alb-/ to produce /Arb-/.

This supports proto-Albanians adopting the Albanoi title and not knowing the original etymology because it was a foreign language to them, so they fuse it with the Albanian. arë.

This happened among other migratory populations in the balkans. For example the Strymonites, a Slav tribe that called themselves after their settlement area in the Strymon river.

Likewise we know that Mat is one of the earliest Albanian settlements, and it is probable this is where the name of the Albanoi became adopted by the proto-Albanians.

So again, just to demonstrate how pathetic this attempt is, it would be like to take an expression from Albanians of pollog (mal e pollog) (mountain and pollog, which is a plain) and to try spin this as meaning that pollog means plain/field in Albanian.

Trying to take a local reference to a local field and selling it as a pan-Albanian expression (whcih doesn't exist) is pointless. You are not achieving anything by lying. Just further making yourself look like a stupid barbarian

 

[Johane Derite]

Wow, they have removed the original quote where this is taken of to create a false impression and to manipulate because they are so desperate. Even going so far as to fill wiktionary and wikipedia with this trash.

The expression "mal e arbën" is only recorded in Kurbin. This part has conveniently been removed from the quote to create an impression that this meaning is present in all Albanian regions. Typical scumbag behaviour.

This is mentioned in Topalli's etymological dictionary where this idea is taken from. This is not a pan-Albanian expression, but a local expression ni Kurbin (close to where Albanopolis is thought to have been).

Also he then clearly writes that the /Alb-/ is the original earlier documented form, likely related to latin. albus (white).

He writes clearly that the Albanian IE word arë (field) would not develop a /b/ as in /arb-/ and so these cannot be etymologically related.

What he does say is that Albanian speakers may have mixed Albanian. arë with /Alb-/ to produce /Arb-/.

This supports proto-Albanians adopting the Albanoi title and not knowing the original etymology because it was a foreign language to them, so they fuse it with the Albanian. arë.

This happened among other migratory populations in the balkans. For example the Strymonites, a Slav tribe that called themselves after their settlement area in the Strymon river.

Likewise we know that Mat is one of the earliest Albanian settlements, and it is probable this is where the name of the Albanoi became adopted by the proto-Albanians.

Also, the earliest inscriptions and references use the version /alb/

Both Greek and Latin have /R/ so there would be no reason to represent /R/ with an /L/.

This grave is by an Albanoi himself, and it is clearly marked with an /L/

 

[Johane Derite]

Seriously, Aurel Plasari has made a fool of himself. And whoever is editing the Albanoi page on wiki is also.

This is the quote from Polybius on Arbo:

"They admitted this tribe to their friendship as well as the Atintanes, and advanced towards Issa which was also being besieged by the Illyrians.

On their arrival they forced the enemy to raise the siege and took the Issaeans also under their protection.

The fleet too took several Illyrian cities by assault as they sailed along the coast, losing, however, at Nutria not only many soldiers, but some of their military tribunes and their quaestor.

They also captured twenty boats which were conveying the plunder from the country.


Of the besiegers of Issa those now in Pharos were allowed, through Demetrius' influence, to remain there unhurt, while the others dispersed and took refuge at Arbo."

§ 2.11.15
Polybius
Histories

This Arbo that Polybius mentions is not Albanopolis as some idiots are writing on the Albanoi wiki page. It is the croatian island Rab, which was known by Dalmatians as Arba:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab?oldformat=true


This is plain to see and obvious given the mention of Issa, which is today the Croatian island Vis, and Pharos, which is the Croatian island Hvar, and these are mentioned in the same sentence in the context of coastal wars.

That this Arbo is being claimed to be Albanopolis on the Albanoi wiki page shows just how low a level of a seriousness and manipulative scumbags these people are. Likewise, this is the Arbon that Stephanus of Byzantium references in the 7th century, so he is also not referring to Albanopolis. He explicitly cites Polybius.

 

[enter_tain]

Seriously, Aurel Plasari has made a fool of himself. And whoever is editing the Albanoi page on wiki is also.

This is the quote from Polybius on Arbo:

"They admitted this tribe to their friendship as well as the Atintanes, and advanced towards Issa which was also being besieged by the Illyrians.

On their arrival they forced the enemy to raise the siege and took the Issaeans also under their protection.

The fleet too took several Illyrian cities by assault as they sailed along the coast, losing, however, at Nutria not only many soldiers, but some of their military tribunes and their quaestor.

They also captured twenty boats which were conveying the plunder from the country.


Of the besiegers of Issa those now in Pharos were allowed, through Demetrius' influence, to remain there unhurt, while the others dispersed and took refuge at Arbo."

§ 2.11.15
Polybius
Histories

This Arbo that Polybius mentions is not Albanopolis as some idiots are writing on the Albanoi wiki page. It is the croatian island Rab, which was known by Dalmatians as Arba:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab?oldformat=true


This is plain to see and obvious given the mention of Issa, which is today the Croatian island Vis, and Pharos, which is the Croatian island Hvar, and these are mentioned in the same sentence in the context of coastal wars.

That this Arbo is being claimed to be Albanopolis on the Albanoi wiki page shows just how low a level of a seriousness and manipulative scumbags these people are. Likewise, this is the Arbon that Stephanus of Byzantium references in the 7th century, so he is also not referring to Albanopolis. He explicitly cites Polybius.

Imagine getting triggered this hard that Wikipedia posts legitimate information.

Maybe get them to publish your Komani = Avar theory.

 

[enter_tain]

Also, the earliest inscriptions and references use the version /alb/

Both Greek and Latin have /R/ so there would be no reason to represent /R/ with an /L/.

"Albanoi" is a Latinism, because the Romans lived next to the Albanus Hills and Julius Caesar was an Alban.

The "Arb" root has been there forever. It was even mentioned in an inscription as "Arbaios" as someone's last name in ancient Greek.

 

[Johane Derite]

In the regions of the roman Dardanian borders we have at least these 4 different archaeological cultures as possible contenders for being the source of the Dardani:


1. Brnjica Culture (middle bronze age to late bronze age)
2. Channeled Ware (late bronze age to Iron age)
3. Low mounds/dented ware (starting 700s BC)
4. Glasinac-Mati-Drini complex (which was present at least in western Kosova regions.)




This scheme of Brnjica being discontinous with Chanelled ware comes form Lazic. I take Lazic with a grain of salt, as he argues that Dardani came from Anatolia to Kosova and not the other way around (based on two quotes from antiquity), and he uses the third low mound/dented ware culture which seems to have origins from lower danube/eastern balkans to argue that (which doesn't make sense).


It is quite obvious that Dardani must have migrated to anatolia with Mysians and Phrygians.

But can we then use these to try tease out different linguistic stratums in Dardania?


The Glasinac-Mati-Drini Complex is obviously responsible for the Illyrian linguistic anthroponyms and toponyms in Kosova. This is the clearest cut case.


The low mounds/dented ware culture has finds in it with parallels in Bassarabi and so-called "Thraco-Cimmerian" finds and is said to have close relations to lower danube / thrace.


The options are that either the chanelled ware or the low mound/dented ware people must have contributed the Thracian toponymy and anthroponymy we see in Eastern Kosova, and the other possibly contributed a language that was neither Thracian nor Illyrian, or they were both Thracian-like but separated dialects by ~500 years.

If there was survival of some Brnjica linguistic stratum even post-channeled ware migration then that would be another possible linguistic stratum in Dardanian territories as a possible candidate for the "Dardanian language".


So from these four archaeological cultures these might be some linguistic spectrums:


1. Brnjica Culture (Some Paeonian-like related language?)
2. Channeled Ware (Possibly Thracian-like language?)
3. Low mounds/dented ware (Possibly Thracian-like language?)
4. Glasinac-Mati-Drini complex (Illyrian)




Some quotes from the paper:


It has long been suggested that the Brnjica culture people formed the ethnic substratum of the Dardani. The dating of the Brnjica culture to Br C/D–Ha A2 or between 1300 and 1000 BC is almost generally believed to be correct. The fact, however, that the pottery recovered from Brnjica burials bears no channelled decoration, which firstrst appears in the central Balkans in Ha A1 and continues even later, is central for establishing an ac-curate date of its disappearance, because it clearly shows that the Brnjica culture came to an end before the first appearance of the channelled ware in the area or, more precisely, that Br D/Ha A1 (13th c. BC) is its
terminus ante quem.


Given that the Brnjica pottery is undecorated and uniform in shape (fig. 1), we are left with jewellery and other bronze artefacts to date the beginning of the culture. The most important in that sense are the artefacts from Brnjica necropolises and on the necropolises with inhumation burials at Iglarevo and LatinskoGroblje (Latin Cemetery) which are precisely dated to the Middle Bronze Age or Br B1–Br C (17th –14thc.BC), suggesting the existence of the Brnjica culture from the end of the Early and during the Middle Bronze Age.IIIThe evolution of the Brnjica, Paraćin and Gamzigrad cultures was disrupted in the 12th century BC(Ha A1).


Namely, it is then that previously unknown types of pottery (amphorae with channelled necks, bowls with inverted, channelled or facetted rims, cups with channelled bellies) become predominant in their areas, which is a reliable indicator of major ethnocultural change (Map 1). The change is recognizable in the pottery of Phase II of the Mediana cultural group (figs. 2 and 3), where new channelled shapes predominate. It seems certain, therefore, that the Middle Bronze Age populations of the central Balkans could not have been a pre-dominant or a significant component of the ethnic substratum of the Dardani.


IV


The central Balkan “dark ages” began after the Aegean migration and lasted for several centuries. It is only from the beginning of the Early Iron Age (Ha B3 or 8th c. BC) that first signs of the upcoming ethnocultural mergings become recognizable in the material and spiritual culture of Balkan populations. In Kosovo, south Metohija, the south Morava valley and the upper Vardar valley, there began to grow numerous settlements inwhich pottery decorated with a dented tool was produced (Map 2; figs. 4–7). In Kosovo-Metohija, to the settlements and hoards of the 8th –7th century BC correspond the contemporaneous necropolises at Široko (near Suva Reka), Vlaštica and Karagač, where there are cremation burials under low mounds, a newly-introduced burial rite in the areas. Discussion about the origin of the pottery and bronze artefacts of the 8th –6th centuries BC from thesettlements in Kosovo-Metohija, the south Morava valley and the upper Vardar valley ended long ago with theconclusion linking the decoration and shapes of these finds with the lower Danube and eastern Balkan areas.


Thus, the archaeological finds dated to the 8th–6th centuries BC clearly show the appearance in the future Dardanian area of a people closely related to the inhabitants of Thrace and the lower Danube Basin.


According to the historical sources, these were Dardani, whom Greeks first encountered in 344 or 343 BC, during Philip II’s (359–336) campaign against the neighbours encroaching on Macedonia’s northern borders. It seems clear, therefore, that the earlier assumptions about their central-Balkan origin and appearance in the 2nd millennium BC should be dismissed as unfounded.

Link to Lazic "Who were the Dardani":


https://www.academia.edu/4104746/КО_СУ_БИЛИ_ДАРДАНЦИ_Who_Were_the_Dardani

The channeled ware distribution, once we add also those that show up in north and central Albania since 1200BC, seems to possibly fit the Dardani.

It explains why Dardanoi also appear in Anatolia (channeled ware migrants also appear there in Troy in the historical record) Neither Glasinac nor Brnjica finds appear in anatolia, and the low tumuli are too late.

This opens the possibility that the Dardani were originally a western channeled ware group

 

[Illyria]

Wanted to share some interesting Greek mythology pertaining to some Illyrian and Central Balkan tribes. I find it interesting because the other version of this mythology, says that the Illyrians, Celts, and Gauls, come from the same ancestors, and as we've seen from samples, the early Illyrians were in the Hallstatt/La Tene sphere of influence, with these samples plotting close to North Italians, Spanish, French (Areas historically known to have Illyrian-Celtic-Gaul influences). The Ancient Greeks also said the Illyrians stretched from Liburnia to Epirus, and they were right on the money, as seen by the samples and the Matt painted pottery from Bosnia to Epirus. Enchele is one of the oldest tribes on the Adriatic, so it's interesting to see what the Ancient Greeks had to say about their origins.

Greek mythology attributes a progenitor to the Enchele, a son of Illyrius called Encheleus. Illyrius, the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people, had multiple sons (Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulus and Perrhaebus) and daughters (Partho, Daortho, Dassaro) from which many Illyrian tribes take their name.

It is referred in Greek mythology that Cadmus, (a prince from Phoenicia that became king of Thebes; Boeotian and Enchelean hero) with his wife Harmonia arrived among the Enchele and helped them build many towns on the shores of Lake Ohrid, among them Lychnidus (Ohrid) and Bouthoe (Budva). As the legend says it, at that time the Enchele were at war with other neighboring Illyrian tribes and Cadmus after orders from the Oracle became leader of the people and came to their aid. After the victory against the other Illyrians, the Enchele chose Cadmus as their king.

I find it interesting, that one of the oldest known Balkan tribes, the Enchele, were at war with other Illyrians, and then were helped by Cadmus, who they chose to be their King after the war, who ended up ruling over the Illyrians.

Dardanus is also mentioned, and interestingly so is the Maedi tribe, the Thracian tribe from where legendary Spartacus hails from, and this tribe was right next to the Bessi Thracian tribe and the Dardanians/Paeonians

So many of these Central Balkan tribes, have many links to both Illyrian and Thracian. Even ancient historians had differing opinions on which tribes were Illyrian and Thracian. I would imagine the Morava & Vardar Rivers, and the plains of Dardania and Paeonia, were constantly being pushed, dominated, or influenced, by both Illyrians and Thracians at different times. The question is, did some of these tribes/groups mix together so heavily that their new language diverged so heavily from both the Illyrian and Thracian base, that it couldn't be tied to either one? Or did one group come out on top, becoming the base, with heavy substrate influence from the assimilated group?

Hopefully we have many high quality samples from the future papers to help answer these questions

 

[Illyria]

It's also interesting they mention that Cadmus helped the Enchele build the town of Buthoe (Budva), Montenegro, which is on the Illyrian side, as Montenegro and Northern Albania were the core stronghold of Southern Illyrians

They also mention this Greek tribe Perrhaebi being Illyrian, a tribe that dwelled between Macedonia and Thessaly, where we see Illyrian-type Matt-painted pottery pop up in Western Greece. Interesting

 

[Johane Derite]

Matt painted pottery from Bosnia to Epirus. Enchele is one of the oldest tribes on the Adriatic, so it's interesting to see what the Ancient Greeks had to say about their origins.

I have to correct this. Matt Ware doesn't appear in Bosnia.

From the latest book on Illyrians, the passage from Lippert:



"Two groups of ceramics are roughly equally represented in Loflkéndi: the incised gray ceramics, which is characteristic of the entire Glasinac-Mat area, and the matt painted earthenware, which shows a direct connection to Southeast Albania, Macedonia and Epirus."

So the typical ceramics that appear and are "characteristic" of the entire Glasinac-Mat area are the incised gray ceramics.

While Matt painted ware only appears in the border zones of southeast Albania and is heavily concentrated in Epirus and Macedonia. Matt ware is not associated with Illyrians.

 

[Johane Derite]

Wanted to share some interesting Greek mythology pertaining to some Illyrian and Central Balkan tribes. I find it interesting because the other version of this mythology, says that the Illyrians, Celts, and Gauls, come from the same ancestors, and as we've seen from samples, the early Illyrians were in the Hallstatt/La Tene sphere of influence, with these samples plotting close to North Italians, Spanish, French (Areas historically known to have Illyrian-Celtic-Gaul influences). The Ancient Greeks also said the Illyrians stretched from Liburnia to Epirus, and they were right on the money, as seen by the samples and the Matt painted pottery from Bosnia to Epirus. Enchele is one of the oldest tribes on the Adriatic, so it's interesting to see what the Ancient Greeks had to say about their origins.


I find it interesting, that one of the oldest known Balkan tribes, the Enchele, were at war with other Illyrians, and then were helped by Cadmus, who they chose to be their King after the war, who ended up ruling over the Illyrians.

Dardanus is also mentioned, and interestingly so is the Maedi tribe, the Thracian tribe from where legendary Spartacus hails from, and this tribe was right next to the Bessi Thracian tribe and the Dardanians/Paeonians

So many of these Central Balkan tribes, have many links to both Illyrian and Thracian. Even ancient historians had differing opinions on which tribes were Illyrian and Thracian. I would imagine the Morava & Vardar Rivers, and the plains of Dardania and Paeonia, were constantly being pushed, dominated, or influenced, by both Illyrians and Thracians at different times. The question is, did some of these tribes/groups mix together so heavily that their new language diverged so heavily from both the Illyrian and Thracian base, that it couldn't be tied to either one? Or did one group come out on top, becoming the base, with heavy substrate influence from the assimilated group?

Hopefully we have many high quality samples from the future papers to help answer these questions

Secondly, it is important to clarify when you say "greek mythology" what author you refer to and from which time.

The mythology of this genealogy of Illyrius comes from Appian, a 2nd Century AD author and Roman citizen.

His geneaologiy is this, and it contains many non-illlyrians like thracian and even paeonians and celtic groups:


Illyrius:

Sons


Encheleus (Εγχελέα) of the Enchelaeae
Autarieus (Αυταριέα) of the Autariates
Dardanus (Δάρδανον) of the Dardani
Maedus (Μαίδον)
Taulas (Ταυλαντά) of the Taulantii
Perrhaebus (Περραιβόν) of the Perrhaebi


Daughters


Partho (Παρθώ) of the Partheni
Daortho (Δαορθώ) of the Daors
Dassaro (Δασσαρώ) of the Dassaretae


Grandsons


Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians


Greatgrandsons


Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci
Triballus (son of Pannonius) of the Triballi


This is very late and clearly a political invention that should be taken with a grain of salt.

There is a far earlier geneaology of Dardanus from the Iliad (~800BC) and he is simply given as a son of Zeus.

No Illyrius is mentioned:

"At the first, Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, begat Dardanus, and he founded Dardania, for not yet was sacred Ilios builded in the plain to be a city of mortal men, but they still dwelt upon the slopes of many-fountained Ida"


Iliad
20.213

 

[Hawk]

The Maedi or the sub-tribe to which Spartacus belonged the Satrae were clearly Thracian. No doubt about that.

 

[Illyria]

I have to correct this. Matt Ware doesn't appear in Bosnia.

From the latest book on Illyrians, the passage from Lippert:



"Two groups of ceramics are roughly equally represented in Loflkéndi: the incised gray ceramics, which is characteristic of the entire Glasinac-Mat area, and the matt painted earthenware, which shows a direct connection to Southeast Albania, Macedonia and Epirus."

So the typical ceramics that appear and are "characteristic" of the entire Glasinac-Mat area are the incised gray ceramics.

While Matt painted ware only appears in the border zones of southeast Albania and is heavily concentrated in Epirus and Macedonia. Matt ware is not associated with Illyrians.

Thanks for the correction, I must have misread or confused it with something else

Secondly, it is important to clarify when you say "greek mythology" what author you refer to and from which time.

The mythology of this genealogy of Illyrius comes from Appian, a 2nd Century AD author and Roman citizen.

Yes for sure, it is important to make the distinction, I was just in a rush to quickly share that post as I had to go somewhere, you're right I confused the Roman historian for the Greek one as there is two versions of the mythology. Thanks for the correction

Grandsons


Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians


Greatgrandsons


Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci
Triballus (son of Pannonius) of the Triballi

I forgot to add this part of the mythology, thanks! The whole point of the post was that I wanted to share how it's interesting that many Thracian/Celtic/Central Balkan tribes are mentioned as Illyrian according to these Greek/Roman authors who formed this mythology. The Autariatae-Paeonia-Pannoni connection is interesting, as is the other connections to Dardani, Taulant, Enchele, etc. My bad for the mistakes. I wonder why the Greek/Roman authors formed these mythical connections of these Eastern Balkan tribes with Illyrians, and the connection of the Illyrians-Celts-Gauls.

This is very late and clearly a political invention that should be taken with a grain of salt.

There is a far earlier geneaology of Dardanus from the Iliad (~800BC) and he is simply given as a son of Zeus.

No Illyrius is mentioned:

"At the first, Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, begat Dardanus, and he founded Dardania, for not yet was sacred Ilios builded in the plain to be a city of mortal men, but they still dwelt upon the slopes of many-fountained Ida"


Iliad
20.213

Yes, it should be taken with a grain of salt, it is mythology. Simply just wanted to share that it is interesting. I am aware of that older version of the mythology of Dardanus as well. Like I've said before, Dardani, early in time, seem to be linked with Thracians, and then came under the influence of Illyrians. I found it interesting that although Illyrius wasn't mentioned in the older mythology, the Roman author links Dardanus and other Central Balkan/Thracian tribes as Illyrian, I wonder why they did. There must be a reason of why they thought that

 

[Illyria]

The Maedi or the sub-tribe to which Spartacus belonged the Satrae were clearly Thracian. No doubt about that.

Of course, never claimed they weren't Thracian. I am sharing that a Roman author, in his mythology, linked the Maedi, Dardani, Enchele, Taulant, Triballi, Scordisci, Paeoni, Panonni, etc, as Illyrian. And how the Greek author, in his mythology, linked Illyrians with Celts and Gauls, and as we've seen with the samples, where they were found, how they plot, they were right about a possible early connection with Illyrians Celts and Gauls in the Hallstatt & La Tene spheres.

I mean, isn't it fascinating, that after a thousand or so years from when these Illyrians moved away from the Northern Balkans and into the Southern Balkans, this Roman author knew they had a distant genetic/cultural link with the ancient Celts and Gauls?

Both mythologies are very interesting. Why did this Roman author link these Thracian/Celtic tribes to Illyrian?

Not sharing it to argue who's thracian or illyrian. Simply sharing some written material for us to digest and discuss.

As I've said before, the ancient Central Balkan tribes seemed to have been Thracian early on, and then came under an Illyrian sphere of influence, later in time. Then, during Roman times, the central Balkans received some Daco-Thracian influence, more so concentrated on the eastern side, near the Morava/Vardar rivers

The fact that many central Balkan tribes have been called both Illyrian and Thracian at different times, and clearly had influences from both, is interesting. I wonder if we'll ever know for sure what they each spoke.

 

[Excine]

I'll post this here as well;

"While these major population movements can be traced in recorded sources, the much more common internal migrations of smaller groups (extended families) were barely noted in Ottoman sources. They are attested in reports of local Catholic clergymen to the Congregatio de propaganda fide (established in Rome in 1622), especially when people were moving towards the Adriatic coast where the Catholic Church had preserved parts of its organizational net-work. One has to distinguish between seasonal migration of herdsmen between summer and winter pastures, and permanent emigration. The latter was prompted by economic pressure (bad harvests) and often by blood feuds, which forced people to leave because they felt threatened by acts of revenge. Most of these minor movements originated in the mountains of central and northern Albania and were directed both to the West (Adriatic coast) and the east (Kosovo, western Macedonia). The multi-layered Albanian dialects in western Macedonia demonstrate that Albanians had immigrated in different stages into an area that was inhabited by Albanians since antiquity. In Kosovo, the Albanian population consisted equally of resident Albanians and newcomers from central and northern Albania."

- The Routledge Handbook of Balkan and Southeast Europe