Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Dibran]

Man you’re pathetic.

Didn’t we resolve this issue last time you accused me of lying? I emailed you the sheet that your buddy ran and I admitted that I could have made a mistake in one of those kits considering I didn’t compile that list (I had asked other admins to make a list for the kits we had sponsored that they withdrew).


Why don’t you post it here so everyone can see the kits they withdrew that we sponsored.

You emailed me a spreadsheet sure. But you never admitted anything. What's a spreadsheet mean?

You're pathetic for acting like I'm privy to half of the drama going on between projects. Regardless of who's right or wrong I don't even know the half of it. I wanted no part in your internal politics and drama. From the getgo I wanted to just contribute to the effort as best I could. And I can care less if you believe me but I even spoke toTrojet and Rrenjet and asked for you all to try and work it out and thet said it was no way to repair that relationship.

But like I told you then. I have no idea what you sponsored. A spreadsheet can be made by anyone. I was clear that I only know what I paid for. You can try and make this about your beef with Rrenjet all you want. But I only ever called you out on the kits I sponsored because I kept the list of names, and I know the money I spent.

I have no idea what came out of your wallet. And if I'm being honest, Rrenjet went out of their way to create a spreadsheet for me compiling all of my contributions so I'm not left confused on what I actually paid for as the samples pile up. They have been nothing but straightforward with me. And anytime i thought something was off, they were quick to rectify it. Your beef with them is your beef. Don't pull me into your drama. I only ever was a member. Never an admin.

My problem with you is your immature behavior toward me, your lies about the kits I paid for, and your lies about me and my family simply because I'm R1a. I mean, on anthro before I had a WGS match on the tree you even tried referencing Kanchov by claiming my village was Bulgarian in the early 1900s as if my family suffered amnesia in a short span of time. Now you want to push it back to the middle ages because of the matches and defter. You don't disagree with people in a normal way. You're quik to snap and insult. Before you attacked me and lied about me I was never nothing but a gentleman with you and you know it.

You can ask Trojet yourself, I actually wanted to continue to contribute to both projects. I agreed to respect both projects and keep kits i contributed to with those projects. It was your attitude and rude behavior and lies toward me that made me decide I wasn't spending another penny toward a project that doesn't appreciate my efforts and levels personal attacks.

Because, quite frankly, only a chump would do that. So you have a good day buddy.

 

[broder]

Spreadsheet proves that the kit I mixed up you did pay for it, dimwit. The others that we paid for they still withdrew without giving us a refund or explaining why they removed them.

Exactly, not your beef so stay out of it.

 

[enter_tain]

You've reached a quick conclusion. Illyrians do not plot in the same way as ancient North Italians (who belong to the Italic IA group), yet current North Italians cluster in the Balkans among Illyrians and Albanians. So, Illyrians are not similar to ancient Italic IA groups, although current Italians are close to ancient Balkan IA groups.

View attachment 13100

Since the IMG for some reason is blurry, here's the link; https://i.ibb.co/GdvyNPQ/close-view.png

This graphs shows what I've been saying about Illyrians. The Romans measured Illyria as 1000 km coastline. The difference between northern and southern Illyrians should be like the difference between northern and central/southern Italians.

It's ridiculous to expect Illyrians living in Central Europe to be identical to the ones living alongside Greeks.

 

[Hawk]

Yes, especially the Knobbed Ware clearly comes from the Upper Tisza down to both Belegis II-G�va and the Lower Danube. However, its hard to tell how much was local adoptions vs. migration, but I obviously tend to the latter, in part simply because no E-V13 was found there so far and an radiation from the North, from the Upper Tisza, fits better into the modern distribution and phylogeny (timing and branches) of E-V13.

This is from an interesting publication on knobbed channelled ware:
It persisted in Bulgaria longer than in some Northern areas, actually, and transitioned fluently into Psenicevo-Basarabi. The ceramic was an important aspect of the identity of the Channelled Ware people:



Distribution map of finds from this very specific G�va pottery style:

https://ibb.co/D1Ky3S1

Source:
https://www.academia.edu/3195938/Ch...a_and_beyond_ritual_and_chronological_aspects

The first finds from this area and a relevant time frame would indeed by the ones from Bulgaria, Kapitan Andreevo, where E-V13 was found in the Iron Age. Also its noteworthy that all areas in which so far a higher frequeny of E-V13 in the ancient DNA was found in later periods being covered by this distribution map and the shown sites. This includes Viminacium, Timacum minus, all the Eastern Hungarian Avar and early Magyar sites up to Miskolc/the Upper Tisza area.

The finds are earlier in the North, but last minimum as long and longer in the Southern areas of the Danube, to which the style expanded. As can be seen, Kapitan Andreevo would be a nice place to start for the South Eastern Lower Danubian groups:

It seems Channelled Ware did contribute to Illyrians as a whole, in two pulses, one by themselves in the transitional period, but probably more via Kyjatice which had closer ties to the Tumulus culture/Middle Danubians than G�va proper, and secondly due to the mixed context which emerged in their Southern expansion zone, especially around the Morava and Vardar river valleys. But yes, that's something which can, in detail, be answered by ancient DNA, both whether the general theory is right and how it influenced specific regions and provinces.

But we also have to consider that, if talking about Albanians, we need to know where Proto-Albanians lived to begin with. They must not have lived in the exact same territory as of now, and especially e.g. the Kosovo was more strongly influenced by Channelled Ware. Urnfielders from the Middle Danube did influence the regions too though.

Let's see what Southern Arc paper brings us, it will clarify a lot of stuff.

I am also taking the possibility of E-V13 coming from Southern Balkans but as we have already discussed before that goes completely against archeological records, various archeologists from various different countries cannot be wrong on that. Chances are slim they are wrong.

If that Kanellure influence on Southern Illyrians is right that would mean for Iron Age Balkans:

Daco-Thracians = Channeled-Ware + Thraco-Cimmerian/Scythian influence
Illyrii Proprii Dictii/Southern Illyrians = Glasinac-Mat + Channeled-Ware influence
Iron Age Greeks = Myceneans + Channeled-Ware (related Danubian) influence

So far, we can safely assume for Daco-Thracians, for Illyri Proprii Dictii and Iron Age Greeks we shall see.

 

[Riverman]

I am also taking the possibility of E-V13 coming from Southern Balkans but as we have already discussed before that goes completely against archeological records, various archeologists from various different countries cannot be wrong on that. Chances are slim they are wrong.

I think the archaeological record is in this case not as much a problem as the modern phylogeny and frequencies, as well as the already available ancient DNA. Because there is really no way how a minority group, one of many haplogroups, could have achieved that expansion in the time it needs to (1.300-1.000 BC). Just look at the series of founder and branching events. How is that supposed to have happened in the South? The only way is if they hijacked Channelled Ware. So it would be still Channelled Ware, but instead of a Northern arrival, somewhere on the way, in one of the cultural provinces, local clans took over.
That is really the only chance and the latest moment for this is Belegis II-G?va. There is a possible way around Northern G?va, but not around Belegis II-G?va. This would still be Southern Pannnonia/Northern Balkans. That's already let, not a better fit than Northern G?va, but its possible. Anything later or more Southern is not possible going after the data we have (archaeological plus genetic).

If that Kanellure influence on Southern Illyrians is right that would mean for Iron Age Balkans:

Daco-Thracians = Channeled-Ware + Thraco-Cimmerian/Scythian influence
Illyrii Proprii Dictii/Southern Illyrians = Glasinac-Mat + Channeled-Ware influence
Iron Age Greeks = Myceneans + Channeled-Ware (related Danubian) influence

So far, we can safely assume for Daco-Thracians, for Illyri Proprii Dictii and Iron Age Greeks we shall see.

Agreed. I think however its nearly impossible that the Illyrians got nothing, just looking at the artefacts from the sphere of the Urnfielders, both Middle Danubians and Channelled Ware, there were at least contacts. Same goes for Greeks. It might be low and hard to detect, but it won't be nothing in any case.

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger in his most recent book etymologises the name of the Illyrian town of "Dimale" as meaning "two-mountains" (as in a settlement between two mountains).

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger in his most recent book etymologises the name of the Illyrian town of "Dimale" as meaning "two-mountains" (as in a settlement between two mountains).

Does this mean that the Parthini were speaking Proto-Albanian?


No.


If you see a bit down in the same page, he compares the Dardanian and Paeonian names Longarus/Langarus with "Latin. Longus, Old High German. Lang."


Does this mean Paeonians were Latins or Germans? No. Cognates here and there are important, but not enough to solidify descent.

 

[Johane Derite]

We can see what type of relationship Italic and Albanian had if we do a deep dive into the ancient linguistic history of Albanian.

If we see exclusive shared lexicon between Albanian and different IE language groups, an interesting pattern emerges.

Albanian has ZERO shared exclusive isoglosses with the Italic group, and only ONE shared exclusive isogloss with the Italo-Celtic group, while it has a bit more with Celtic.

What this suggests is that Albanian in its ancient stage was very far away from the Italo-Celtic IE group, but had a few more contacts with Celtic at a later stage, when Italo-Celtic had broken up, but again comparatively not that much.

However, if we see the exclusive lexical isoglosses that are shared by Albanian and the Baltic group, we see that this is the highest group with which Albanian shares exclusive isoglosses with. This points to some closer sphere of contact, but if we see the earlier Balto-Slavic stage, we see that
it is a bit less, but still very high, meaning proto-Albanian was in sphere of contact at the time of the Balto-Slavic common period also (a long time ago). This also extends to the Germanic-Balto-Slavic common group.

If we see Albanian exclusive isoglosses with Greek, we see this is the second highest, but very low when it comes to previous stages, so from this it again emerges that Albanian was probably in a Greek sphere of contact at a later stage in Greek's history.

What emerges from this is that a very early proto-Albanian language group must have been somewhere where it could be in contact with the balto-slavic group before they broke up into baltic and slavic.

Matzinger has built upon this work of the isoglosses, by noting that Albanian has deeper grammatical features with Greek, meaning that proto-Albanian must have been a language group that was initially part of the Greek contact sphere, that then fell into the Balto-Slavic sphere, and later again the Greek one.

But very far away from Italo-Celtic and Italic throughout this whole period. This speaks against the East Alpine Block of Illyrian languages, which had a closer relationship to Italic (even autosomally plot like North-Italians).

In the same way that Albanian sharing some terms exclusively with only Baltic languages does not necessarily meant that Albanian and Baltic are directly from the same ancestor, exclusive terms shared between Albanian and Illyrian doesn't imply this either.

We should expect Albanian and Illyrian to have at least a few exclusive isoglosses shared between them even if they are not from the same ancestor, since Albanian shares some even with Celtic, Germanic, etc.

But exclusive words shared between two groups do not equal descendance from the same group, it can simply be a case of contact, as it is in the case of Albanian and Baltic.

 

[Riverman]

I don't know whether Thracian and Illyrian had the same origin, but fact is, they got separated fairly early in the Bronze Age and since then came under different influences. Illyrian came under Bell Beaker/Centum influence, Thracian under Epi-Corded/Baltoslavic one throughout the whole EBA-EIA.

 

[Riverman]

Its also noteworthy that these issues being long known, but since people had "a problem" with the idea of an Urnfield migration, they began to ignore long known facts, similar to the demise of the "Beaker folk" hypothesis. This paper is from 1977, but its being vindicated by new finds from Morava and Vardar valley, Greece and Bulgaria. Because its German, I simply run everything through Google translate, which might miss some correct interpretations, but should work overall:

Individual elements of the complex of Aigeira find parallel len at sites in Albania. The fortified settlement of Gajtan in near Shkoder yielded fluted 3 and 4 in their layers Ceramics, as well as vessels with plastic bands and knobs similar those of our material. Likewise, some vessel shapes have if not exact correspondences, so at least analogies among the finds of Aigeira. Layer 3 of Gajtan dates to the Late Bronze Age of the 12th century v. 115 ? Fluted pottery, especially vessels with twisted Ten handles similar to our example 4 (2. 10) were also found in the Tumulus Tombs of the Mat Valley: These finds are likely to be younger than the material of Aigeira, but one can in this withdrawn area of ​​Albania probably expect a longer term 116 (cf. below, o.13, 6.22.1, 6.24.1). Fluted vessels represent one of Albania's Late Bronze Age represents a new factor (cf. below, o.13), which belongs to the native, e.g. T. old traditions. Among these indigenous ceramic genera There are no parallels to the material from Aigeira in Albania.

Interestingly, Albania is supposed to have had an older phase of Channelled Ware (of a different period, style and origin) in the EBA, but probably also from Central Europe coming:

As mentioned above, we've known 4.11 for some time fluted pottery also from various localities of the late Bronze and early Iron Age Albania, mainly from Gajtan and Mati. Now in this room is the technique of vessel fluting in ceramics not without forerunners there . Because in the Early Bronze Age horizons of Malik in the plains of Koritsa has a fondness for fluted vessels recognize. Nevertheless, this pottery cannot be regarded as a local prototype be, from which the fluted ware of the 12th century . and the following Periods may be derived : The early Bronze Age material seems to der according to the current findings, to be a rather locally limited phenomenon, which has no parallels either in Macedonia or in Greece. moreover it was limited in time as there is no sequel in the following central and Late Bronze Age of Albania found 1408. So here we are facing a similar one Case of "missing link" as in the three-dimensionally carved f"ll vessels of the Early Hellenic dikums and their relationship to foreign ceramics "1111 Aigeira (see above, 3.3ff.) . But one could probably use the Albanian finds of fluted pottery See the Early Bronze Age as a diachronic parallel to the vessels discussed here: like these, they are used as an expression of immigration northern areas of the Balkans or viewed from Central Europe 140 b so possibly an analogue background. The fluted vessels of the Late Bronze Age and early Iron period of Albania (ref. below, note 197 - 199) can be identified just like theirs Macedonian parallels well with the materials of the early middle Compare Danubeian UK : This applies to bowls with fluted tem rim, for kantharoi, amphorae and jugs with inclined fluting on the shoulder and vessel body, and again especially for twisted ones Henkel that merge with those from Vardaroftsa.

Conclusion for the Balkan-Aegean sphere overall:

This observation is not new. It has been for quite some time one becomes aware of the fact that certain objects of the material Culture during the period mentioned a spread from Central European area to the Aegean. This concerns above all the violin bow and round bow fibulae, grip tongue swords, blazed spearheads and other elements of armament and Armour, but also ornaments and jewelry such as bracelets, Curly rings, etc. They were all put together by a competent presented and widely discussed 152

She also points out, that it was a technological backflow, kind of. Because rightfully, first Mycenean elements did spread North, then they were adopted and developed on, improved, especially in the Eastern Pannonian sphere. From there, the improved technology, weaponry and tactics, now superiour to those of the Mycenaeans, swept back:

Another important result of the recent work on Material lies in recognizing that some elements - above all those of military equipment - the product of a mutual hung between the Aegean region and central or northern Europe have been in the Balkans: they have been through in the European area Aegean models inspired, further developed from a technical point of view, and then arrived from 13 . century back to the Mediterranean

Given the results of our present discussion and in particular the previous 5th section remains for the Find complex from Aigeira and its southern Greek parallels m. E. only the explanation that at the turn of the 13th to the 12th century v. in Mycenaean area of Greece population elements emerged that by any circumstances from the cultural property of the early urnfield .time of Central Europe. They settled temporarily in the south Greece down .

In Greece many of this influences were more limited, in some areas it was even about small groups, down to individuals and imports, while in others larger groups of people came in. But for much of Macedonia-Bulgaria, it was a massive impact. That's an old article, she doesn't differentiate as much, especially between the Middle Danubian Urnfielders and Channelled Ware in the narrower sense (= G?va, Belegis II-G?va, Kyjatice, Knobbed Ware/Fluted Ware in Bulgaria etc.). Nevertheless, this paper just shows the basics being known for quite some time. Its just this idea of "pots not people" holding things back, just like it was done with "the Beaker phenomenon".

https://epub.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa5576 0x003b40d8.pdf

 

[Johane Derite]

Its also noteworthy that these issues being long known, but since people had "a problem" with the idea of an Urnfield migration

This is still evident today with Bruzmi's propaganda effort.


On Anthrogenica, he is currently claiming the following about the Thracians supposedly based on Nenova's paper:


"There were several migrations of different groups which formed the population of Thrace. I believe that the migrations of the 16th and 15th century BCE represent Proto-Thracians as well those of the 13th century from the same region (Romania)."



Despite that same paper of Nenova writing this in the conclusion:



"A further exciting topic is the decline of these pottery traditions at the end of the Bronze Age and their replacement by new ceramics, now spread all over Thrace.

For this reason, the end of the Bronze Age has been discussed in previous chapters in tandem with the beginning of the EIA and with the appearance of the lustrous ceramics (also known as ‘knobbed ware’ or ‘Bukelkeramik’) which entirely replaced the earlier traditions."


Pg 339



We literally have Nenova stating it outright that all those MBA ceramic traditions were wiped out by channeled ware in Thrace (replaced ENTIRELY, spread ALL OVER Thrace,etc) so it is highly unlikely there was some magic persistence of the people despite their entire culture being replace ENTIRELY.

How more dishonest can it get.

The entirety of Thrace had its culture replaced entirely, and there was no language shift?

 

[Johane Derite]

This is still evident today with Bruzmi's propaganda effort.


On Anthrogenica, he is currently claiming the following about the Thracians supposedly based on Nenova's paper:


"There were several migrations of different groups which formed the population of Thrace. I believe that the migrations of the 16th and 15th century BCE represent Proto-Thracians as well those of the 13th century from the same region (Romania)."



Despite that same paper of Nenova writing this in the conclusion:



"A further exciting topic is the decline of these pottery traditions at the end of the Bronze Age and their replacement by new ceramics, now spread all over Thrace.

For this reason, the end of the Bronze Age has been discussed in previous chapters in tandem with the beginning of the EIA and with the appearance of the lustrous ceramics (also known as ‘knobbed ware’ or ‘Bukelkeramik’) which entirely replaced the earlier traditions."


Pg 339



We literally have Nenova stating it outright that all those MBA ceramic traditions were wiped out by channeled ware in Thrace (replaced ENTIRELY, spread ALL OVER Thrace,etc) so it is highly unlikely there was some magic persistence of the people despite their entire culture being replace ENTIRELY.

How more dishonest can it get.

The entirety of Thrace had its culture replaced entirely, and there was no language shift?

Let us pretend that Bruzmi is correct, and that the thracian languages do come from people with the ceramic traditions of the 16th & 15th century BC in Thrace, this would mean that the channeled ware which replaced entirely all the older ceramic traditions all over Thrace didn't
even leave a single trace of their own language. Truly ridiculous.

 

[Riverman]

Let us pretend that Bruzmi is correct, and that the thracian languages do come from people with the ceramic traditions of the 16th & 15th century BC in Thrace, this would mean that the channeled ware which replaced entirely all the older ceramic traditions all over Thrace didn't
even leave a single trace of their own language. Truly ridiculous.

Its even funnier, because what are these earlier migrations? They being largely connected with Carpathian basin people too! The most important groups coming from the Tell culture and their descendants or from the North/North East, up to the steppe (Noua-Sabatinovka). There is nothing local, so even if they came earlier, they still came from a related context.

Yet like you correctly say, there was this unified horizon and mainly two big influences which produced Psenicevo: Channelled Ware and Encrusted Pottery. He already shifted his argumentation, because he has to. There is absolutely no evidene for a Western origin of E-V13 and there is absolutely nothing in Bulgaria which did survive and wasn't coming from the Carpathian sphere/steppe. So if E-V13 spread in Bulgaria in the IA, what it did in all likelihood, going by the available Bronze Age vs. Iron Age (leak) samples, it had to come from the Carpathian basin. No way around it.
Even more so, since a local origin would be even more against his idea of a West Balkan origin, it doesn't fit at all. Its quite clear, he has to accept that a West Balkan origin for E-V13 is now dead. It doesn't work out.

Southern Pannonian-North Balkan? That's a different story, we need way more samples to deal with that. Because Belegis II-G?va was sufficiently different from the G?va core for locals to have, in part, hijacked it. I don't see that as likely, not at all, but its possible, I can't exclude it at that point.

 

[enter_tain]

Does this mean that the Parthini were speaking Proto-Albanian?


No.
.

Yes. Because Dimallum is not the only cognate. The entire territory is filled with Illyrian/Albanian cognates. Following T -> D, L -> LL shifts that happened in Albanian, Taulanti is also related to Dallandyshe (Swallow). Greeks translated an adjacent tribe as "Khelidoni", i.e. Men of the Swallow.

Ulqin is named after a wolf, Delminium after sheep (You also have modern day Delvine), Dardania after pears, Bardyllis after the color white. Encheleans were also later corrected and written with a voiced "ng" (Engelanes) like Albanian "ngjale" (Proto-Albanian engella) as opposed to Greek "nk". Brindisi that is Messapian is related to the word "bri"/antlers. Epidamnus was related to the word "dami" (dem), where "epi" means on/at. Dassarite after "dash" (ram).

We barely have any Illyrian words and they almost all relate to Albanians, despite Albanians losing, what, 70% of its original vocabulary?

 

[Johane Derite]

Thracian -para possibly related to Albanian. farë which is cognate with Greek. spore, the loss of the s in /sp/ was part of the transition to -> /f/ as in "fjalë", cognate with English. spell. /sp/ became /f/ in Albanian.

Thracian -para could have therefore originally meant clan (seed to clan/tribe) and come to mean settlement.

For example of this semantic transition, Albanian. vis (settlement, area) compared to cognate "Aryan Vissa" in Sanskrit (which means Aryan Clans).

Bessapara (Besë+fara)
Buiapara (Buaj + fara) (compare Bua tribe in Albanian)
Dardapara (Dardhë + fara) (two such settlements)
Brentopara (Brina + fara)
Briparon (Bri + fara)
Drusipara (Dru + fara)
Busipara (Buzë + fara)

-deva possibly related to an inflection of Albanian. dhe meaning settlement/village? Compare Atdheu (fatherland).

Murideva (Mur + dheu)
Burrideva (Burrë + dheu)
Perburridava (Për + Burrë + dheu)

Burri tribe cognate with Albanian. Burrë


There is the Thracian and Dacian name Diegis connection to Albanian. Djeg
There is the Thracian name Drenis connection to Albanian. Dren

Dacian. Amalusta (camomile) Albanian. Ambël
Dacian. Drubetis cognate with Albanian. Dru
Dacian. Karpates cognate with Albanian. Karpë
Dacian. Zermi-sirga cognate with Albanian. Zjerm
Dacian. Mantua (mulberry) cognate with Albanian. man (mulberry)
Dacian. Maluensis cognate with Albanian. Mal
Dacian. Patavissa cognate with Albanin. vis
Dacian. Polondova which later became Pelendova matches proto-Albanian. pol-na which became Albanian. pelë

There is the Dacian god: Vet-sopios, Ouet-sopios, the first part is cognate with Albanian. vetë, translation of Greek. Auto+hyppos

Wow, we don't have a single Thracian text and yet so many Albanian cognates appear among the Thracians and Dacians, this must mean that Albanian is Thracian.

But actually, since Albanian shares the most exclusive words with Baltic only and no other IE language, this must actually mean that the Baltic language is Albanian.

I hope my point has been made. Language descendance is not established by cognates, since Thracian also has cognates with Albanian, but by phonology.

Matzinger himself openly makes comparisons between Illyrian and Albanian as is shown in the case of Dimale, Dallendyshe, etc, but he is still arguing that the phonological system of Albanian and Illyrian are of two different languages.

Also, it is easy to cherry pick some names and torture a comparison with Albanian out of them, but there are countless Illyrian names which have no Albanian etymology:

Skerdilaidas
Clevatus
Longarus
Abozika
Adana
Birkenna
Plator
Koreta
Etleva
Ettuta
Ettritos
Glavus
Grabos
Grabon
Langaros
Laudos
Lydra
Madena
Mallika
Mannikos
Monounios
Pinnes
Pleuratos
Preurat/dos
Skeneta
Temus
Titos
Trauzos
Trauzina
Verzan
Verzas
Khortas
Zaimina
Zaimios

 

[enter_tain]

Thracian -para possibly related to Albanian. farë which is cognate with Greek. spore, the loss of the s in /sp/ was part of the transition to -> /f/ as in "fjalë", cognate with English. spell. /sp/ became /f/ in Albanian.

Thracian -para could have therefore originally meant clan (seed to clan/tribe) and come to mean settlement.

For example of this semantic transition, Albanian. vis (settlement, area) compared to cognate "Aryan Vissa" in Sanskrit (which means Aryan Clans).

Bessapara (Besë+fara)
Buiapara (Buaj + fara) (compare Bua tribe in Albanian)
Dardapara (Dardhë + fara) (two such settlements)
Brentopara (Brina + fara)
Briparon (Bri + fara)
Drusipara (Dru + fara)
Busipara (Buzë + fara)

-deva possibly related to an inflection of Albanian. dhe meaning settlement/village? Compare Atdheu (fatherland).

Murideva (Mur + dheu)
Burrideva (Burrë + dheu)
Perburridava (Për + Burrë + dheu)

Burri tribe cognate with Albanian. Burrë


There is the Thracian and Dacian name Diegis connection to Albanian. Djeg
There is the Thracian name Drenis connection to Albanian. Dren

Dacian. Amalusta (camomile) Albanian. Ambël
Dacian. Drubetis cognate with Albanian. Dru
Dacian. Karpates cognate with Albanian. Karpë
Dacian. Zermi-sirga cognate with Albanian. Zjerm
Dacian. Mantua (mulberry) cognate with Albanian. man (mulberry)
Dacian. Maluensis cognate with Albanian. Mal
Dacian. Patavissa cognate with Albanin. vis
Dacian. Polondova which later became Pelendova matches proto-Albanian. pol-na which became Albanian. pelë

There is the Dacian god: Vet-sopios, Ouet-sopios, the first part is cognate with Albanian. vetë, translation of Greek. Auto+hyppos

Wow, we don't have a single Thracian text and yet so many Albanian cognates appear among the Thracians and Dacians, this must mean that Albanian is Thracian.

But actually, since Albanian shares the most exclusive words with Baltic only and no other IE language, this must actually mean that the Baltic language is Albanian.

I hope my point has been made. Language descendance is not established by cognates, since Thracian also has cognates with Albanian, but by phonology.

Matzinger himself openly makes comparisons between Illyrian and Albanian as is shown in the case of Dimale, Dallendyshe, etc, but he is still arguing that the phonological system of Albanian and Illyrian are of two different languages.

Also, it is easy to cherry pick some names and torture a comparison with Albanian out of them, but there are countless Illyrian names which have no Albanian etymology:

Skerdilaidas
Clevatus
Longarus
Abozika
Adana
Birkenna
Plator
Koreta
Etleva
Ettuta
Ettritos
Glavus
Grabos
Grabon
Langaros
Laudos
Lydra
Madena
Mallika
Mannikos
Monounios
Pinnes
Pleuratos
Preurat/dos
Skeneta
Temus
Titos
Trauzos
Trauzina
Verzan
Verzas
Khortas
Zaimina
Zaimios

Matzinger "Thracian has no relation to Albanian"

Do you trust your boyfriend or not? Or have you gone so off the deep end you stop even quoting anyone anymore and just opt for your own theories?

The -para and -dava were ubiquotious in Thracian and Dacian. Albanian names their tribes like Illyrian (-et/at).

 

[Hawk]

Its also noteworthy that these issues being long known, but since people had "a problem" with the idea of an Urnfield migration, they began to ignore long known facts, similar to the demise of the "Beaker folk" hypothesis. This paper is from 1977, but its being vindicated by new finds from Morava and Vardar valley, Greece and Bulgaria. Because its German, I simply run everything through Google translate, which might miss some correct interpretations, but should work overall:




Interestingly, Albania is supposed to have had an older phase of Channelled Ware (of a different period, style and origin) in the EBA, but probably also from Central Europe coming:



Conclusion for the Balkan-Aegean sphere overall:



She also points out, that it was a technological backflow, kind of. Because rightfully, first Mycenean elements did spread North, then they were adopted and developed on, improved, especially in the Eastern Pannonian sphere. From there, the improved technology, weaponry and tactics, now superiour to those of the Mycenaeans, swept back:





In Greece many of this influences were more limited, in some areas it was even about small groups, down to individuals and imports, while in others larger groups of people came in. But for much of Macedonia-Bulgaria, it was a massive impact. That's an old article, she doesn't differentiate as much, especially between the Middle Danubian Urnfielders and Channelled Ware in the narrower sense (= G�va, Belegis II-G�va, Kyjatice, Knobbed Ware/Fluted Ware in Bulgaria etc.). Nevertheless, this paper just shows the basics being known for quite some time. Its just this idea of "pots not people" holding things back, just like it was done with "the Beaker phenomenon".

https://epub.oeaw.ac.at/0xc1aa5576 0x003b40d8.pdf

They are referring to Bubanj-Hum migrants probably, the Southern Bubanj-Hum were pushed from Danube-Central Balkans and many of them participated in formation of Maliq II Early Bronze Age Albania site.

Gavranovic divided Bubanj-Hum into two spheres of influence. The northern sphere having more Vinca-Turdas, and the southern hemisphere having more of Bulgarian Neolithic/Chalcolithic influence and maybe some Yamnayas wandering around. It might be that Southern Bubanj-Hum was R1b-Z2103 (incoming Yamnaya IE), G2a, J2a and perhaps J2b2-L283.

The Northern hemisphere of Vinca-Turdas is probable candidate of E-V13, after their wars with incoming Indo-Europeans, they probably just retreated into safer zones of Carpathian Mountains. But the specific Channeled-Ware by all means in newer Albanian archeological chronology appears the earliest in Late Bronze Age.

 

[Johane Derite]

Thracian -para possibly related to Albanian. farë which is cognate with Greek. spore, the loss of the s in /sp/ was part of the transition to -> /f/ as in "fjalë", cognate with English. spell. /sp/ became /f/ in Albanian.

Thracian -para could have therefore originally meant clan (seed to clan/tribe) and come to mean settlement.

For example of this semantic transition, Albanian. vis (settlement, area) compared to cognate "Aryan Vissa" in Sanskrit (which means Aryan Clans).

Bessapara (Besë+fara)
Buiapara (Buaj + fara) (compare Bua tribe in Albanian)
Dardapara (Dardhë + fara) (two such settlements)
Brentopara (Brina + fara)
Briparon (Bri + fara)
Drusipara (Dru + fara)
Busipara (Buzë + fara)

-deva possibly related to an inflection of Albanian. dhe meaning settlement/village? Compare Atdheu (fatherland).

Murideva (Mur + dheu)
Burrideva (Burrë + dheu)
Perburridava (Për + Burrë + dheu)

Burri tribe cognate with Albanian. Burrë


There is the Thracian and Dacian name Diegis connection to Albanian. Djeg
There is the Thracian name Drenis connection to Albanian. Dren

Dacian. Amalusta (camomile) Albanian. Ambël
Dacian. Drubetis cognate with Albanian. Dru
Dacian. Karpates cognate with Albanian. Karpë
Dacian. Zermi-sirga cognate with Albanian. Zjerm
Dacian. Mantua (mulberry) cognate with Albanian. man (mulberry)
Dacian. Maluensis cognate with Albanian. Mal
Dacian. Patavissa cognate with Albanin. vis
Dacian. Polondova which later became Pelendova matches proto-Albanian. pol-na which became Albanian. pelë

There is the Dacian god: Vet-sopios, Ouet-sopios, the first part is cognate with Albanian. vetë, translation of Greek. Auto+hyppos

Despite Albanian cognates with Thracian (some are very secure, like Mantia (mulberry), Karpates, etc, while others more speculative, as is also the case with Illyrian cognates) this does not mean Albanian descends from Thracian.

Matzinger explicitly argues that the phonetic system of Thracian doesn't seem to match that of Albanian.

"Thracian. /ge-/ as opposed to Early Proto-Albanian. */ǰe-/ cannot be understood as a simple dialect difference of a language, but only as a fundamentally different (combinatorial) change of a phoneme in two different and therefore also independent languages."

To summarise his argument


Thracian: development of IE palatals led to sibilants
vs
Early Proto-Albanian: development of IE palatals led to affricates


Thracian: Loss of labial component
vs
Early Proto-Albanian: Preserved labial component

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger likewise holds the same position that Albanian does not match the Illyrian phonetic system in countless places.

For example,

Whereas Illyrian had /ó/, Early Proto-Albanian lacked this vowel entirely.We know from countless placenames and personal names that this vowel was present in Illyrian.


Whereas Illyrian had the IE /sk/, Early Proto-Albanian had instead /x/.

So if Scodra were a proto-Albanian toponym, it should have been xadra (read khadra) in the pre-roman period, and Hadër today.

This is because Indo European *o became *a very early in Early Proto-Albanian and proto-Albanian didn't have an /o/ in its vowel system.


Albanian. "Natë" [Night]
from Proto-Indo-European *nókʷts.


Albanian. "Gardh" [fence]
from Proto-Indo-European *gʰórdʰos


so not only does the /sk/ of skodra not match, but also the /o/ should have been /a/, in a period way before romans even entered the balkans.

 

[Johane Derite]

Despite Albanian cognates with Thracian (some are very secure, like Mantia (mulberry), Karpates, etc, while others more speculative, as is also the case with Illyrian cognates) this does not mean Albanian descends from Thracian.

Matzinger explicitly argues that the phonetic system of Thracian doesn't seem to match that of Albanian.

"Thracian. /ge-/ as opposed to Early Proto-Albanian. */ǰe-/ cannot be understood as a simple dialect difference of a language, but only as a fundamentally different (combinatorial) change of a phoneme in two different and therefore also independent languages."

To summarise his argument


Thracian: development of IE palatals led to sibilants
vs
Early Proto-Albanian: development of IE palatals led to affricates


Thracian: Loss of labial component
vs
Early Proto-Albanian: Preserved labial component

Matzinger argues that certain features characteristic of the Albanian language (see A, B, C, D) were already developed, or were being developed, in the second half of the second millennium BC (~1500BC).

If Albanian and its nearly related languages came to the balkans with the channeled ware migrations of ~1200BC into Albania, Dardania, etc, then Albanian may be a language that is more distantly related to Thracian, that has a common ancestor with Thracian in the MBA (~1500BC).

The channeled ware of Albania and Dardania may then have belonged to some western Thracoid language speaking people, Adriatic Thracians, or maybe these were simply the "Dardani".