enter_tain
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- Y-DNA haplogroup
- J2B2-L283/Z638
I love how this dude posts a chart discussing Southern Illyrians, but doesn't actually put Southern Illyrians in there.
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Myceneans ARE south of Northern Illyrians. Wtf are you going on about? And where are Southern Illyrians in that chart?
Like I said, the admixture of southern Illyrians will depend on the era. The Pre-Slavic Era/Proto-Albanian is clearly Mycenean-like
You can argue about why or how they got to that point, but Roman Empire South Illyrians were clearly similar to southern/central Italians.
That some modern Albanians and Greek Macedonians plot very close to Iron Age Albania and Macedonia seems very interesting in and of itself, regardless of any relationship to Mycenaeans. When looking at the Doliani Epirus medieval sample from the other leaked PCA, it gives an appearance of long-standing continuity in the region (waiting for more samples to confirm or refute). Peloponnesians are unsurprisingly more shifted toward Crete, on the whole.
I'm not sure that you understand how south of northern Illyrians, Mycenaeans are. Mycenaeans are to "the south" of Illyrians in the same sense that .... BA Cypriots are to the south of northern Illyrians. This doesn't mean at all that there's anything in common between southern Illyrians and Mycenaeans, let alone "Proto-Albanians". The difference is huge.
Basic components:
Target: HRV_EIA
Distance: 2.3379% / 0.02337930 | R4P
57.4 TUR_Barcin_N
35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.6 WHG
Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.9922% / 0.01992157 | R4P
67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
11.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Even if you don't restrict components to 4, you don't get more than 0.6 WHG for Mycenaeans:
Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.8182% / 0.01818229
67.8 TUR_Barcin_N
16.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 Levant_Natufian
1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.6 WHG
0.2 Han
IA Albania which is just south of IA Croatia represents southern Illyrians. You can see the PCA in the threads about the new Serbian study. IA Albania has nothing to do with Mycenaeans. It's much more northern that Mycenaeans and its closest existing sample autosomally is HRV_Pop_Ca.
Target: HRV_Pop_CA
Distance: 1.8480% / 0.01848030 | R4P
64.8 TUR_Barcin_N
31.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 WHG
Do you understand how big the difference is between Illyrians and Mycenaeans?
It's pointless to argue that southern Illyrians looked anything like Mycenaeans and that Mycenaeans looked anything like the ancestors of Albanians. You will never find a study which will show that southern Illyrians were close to Mycenaeans.
IA Macedonia is about North Macedonia. It is interesting because we distinguish Ancient Greeks genetically from every other group expect for Thracians. If Ancient Macedonians and Epirotes plot with Peloponnesians (ie. Empuries-Like samples) and they likely will, what does this mean?
This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.
Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.
Which Macedonians? The IA samples from Paeonia? It’s logical that Paeonians or nearby tribes should be very close to Southern Illyrians.Mate, can you stop and read what I wrote for a second? There is no one uniform group of "Illyrians". There are 2 things you have to take into account
(1) Location
(2) Time Period
Even "Southern Illyrians" cover a period of 3,000 years, from 2500 BC to 500 AD. Their autosomal profile would have changed radically during those times.
This thread is specifically talking about the Pre-Slavic Illyrians in Albania, i.e. the Proto-Albanians, which would be Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial admixture. Even so, stop pretending like Northern and Southern Illyrians are equal. They cluster somewhat close, but are clearly apart.
Now add Roman Imperial to the southern shifted Illyrians of the Iron Age. There is a reason why Macedonians cluster with them.
Which Macedonians? The IA samples from Paeonia? It’s logical that Paeonians or nearby tribes should be very close to Southern Illyrians.
Proto-Albanians without Migration Period admixture are still not that close to Mycenaeans.
About this I have a theory . I wonder if you came around to understand what I meant during our last argument. Since last time I might not have conveyed my thoughts clearly.
Relax, nobody’s being hostile nor disingenuous.I love how this dude goes to "Paeonia" directly. Could you be more disingenuous? The south of modern day Macedonia was part of old Macedonia. But let's say it was Paeonia. Paeonia, that was essentially a puppet state of the Macedonians and neighbour, are NOT related to Macedonians but they are related to Illyrians?
Stop grasping at straws. Illyrians, depending on the time period, shifted more and more south that by the end of the Roman Empire were comparable to southern or central Italians. We have proof of this.
Where is the leaked PCA from? And what do they mean by Macedonia? Greek Macedonia, or just any people living in territory of modern Republic of North Macedonia?All of this shows me that Olalde et al. 2021 was correct. Balkans IA (Tuscany to South Italy)spans the leaked PCA.
Where is the leaked PCA from? And what do they mean by Macedonia? Greek Macedonia, or just any people living in territory of modern Republic of North Macedonia?
0.11907426125 | ,0.143091755, | 0.025005509375 | ,-0.0163941265 | ,0.0261132558375 | ,-0.009156175125 | ,0.00299491471225 | ,0.003180877625, | 0.003759638225 | ,0.02776687075 | ,0.0039157228375 | ,0.00652633707375 | ,-0.00795603847375 | ,-0.0013258031 | ,-0.0137537065 | ,-0.000970341500375 | ,0.0129163582, | 0.0010389130525, | 0.0053588578625 | ,-0.001409251675 | ,-0.0078592526375 | ,0.0101371213875 | ,0.0004949173125, | 0.0018920822875 | ,-0.002586066475 |
Is this modern or aDNA auDNA? Kind of reminds me of the R9669 sample from the Stable population structure paper?Anyone wants to hazard a guess at which population x coordinates are for(g25)?
x
0.11907426125 ,0.143091755, 0.025005509375 ,-0.0163941265 ,0.0261132558375 ,-0.009156175125 ,0.00299491471225 ,0.003180877625, 0.003759638225 ,0.02776687075 ,0.0039157228375 ,0.00652633707375 ,-0.00795603847375 ,-0.0013258031 ,-0.0137537065 ,-0.000970341500375 ,0.0129163582, 0.0010389130525, 0.0053588578625 ,-0.001409251675 ,-0.0078592526375 ,0.0101371213875 ,0.0004949173125, 0.0018920822875 ,-0.002586066475
There is no Slavic or eastern european ancestry in Iron Age Croatians. OP post makes no sense. They shift towards Italics, Etrsucans and Celts. They were just way too northern to model modern Balkanites with them.Obviously Balkans received large amount of Imperial Roman and Anatolian like ancestry and that's why you can't model Albanians (or even Croats) with them alone.
There's no evidence southern Illyrians were much different than Croatian IA. Daunians in Apulia who are arcehologically believed to come from Albania proper were similarly northern/western.
Albos aren't that Illyrian obviously, they got loads of Thracian, Roman and Slavic admixture on top of that.
No E-V13 was found in Illyrians either, neither in Croatia, Slovenia or southern Italy. This whole thread looks like a giant cope with the fact Paleo-Balkan people were heavily diluted even before Slavic arrival and that modern Balkanites are heavily mixed, including non Slavic speakers like Greeks and Albos.
You are obviously a sock-puppet account of that Kosovar kid lol. Anyway, it's not us saying Daco-Thracians were heavy E-V13, it's most of the anthofora people who already are mentioning and aknowleding, it's just couple of you J2b2-L283 Kosovars with dozens of sock-puppet accounts over the board who are over-reacting.
I say even Central Balkan people like Dardanii, Paeonii and Encheleii were E-V13 heavy as well. But, that's up to aDNA to confirm it.
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