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Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Er Monnezza;654178]I base this on the genomes of the ancient Greeks that we have so far. I am Southern Italian, not Albanian.

"GRC_Mycenaean" is an average of 4 individuals who lived in the Peloponnese between 1346 and 1300 BC.

"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" is an average of 2 individuals who lived in the Greek colony of Emporion in Spain between 576 and 276 BC.

Below you can see the closest modern populations to them, and also note that they are all far apart.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]GRC_Mycenaean[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04621737[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04809307[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04852104[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04995370[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04999673[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05085882[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05100425[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05223553[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05364111[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05422879[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04715049[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04766329[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04778804[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04857601[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04981762[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.04994000[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05206948[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05321564[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05330776[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]0.05402369[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
.
Click to expand...
That's not far apart, not when we're talking of a time span of 2000 years, and a folk migration in between. Your Czechs and Brits and Germans are far apart from the ancient Greeks, not the modern Greeks.

As I've said till I'm blue in the face, that's what from 15-30% of Slavic ancestry will do to you. Doesn't mean they aren't descended from them, and to a substantial degree.

The passage of time did the same to my own genome, which comes out in more than one calculator as 70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like". So, there you go. Those are the results I get, and my genealogical tree shows all my ancestors lived not just on the Italian peninsula, but in the same rather isolated area of the Italian peninsula for at least 1000 years. Are my scores too, "just a coincidence"?
 
Angela said:
The passage of time did the same to my own genome, which comes out in more than one calculator as 70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like". So, there you go. Those are the results I get, and my genealogical tree shows all my ancestors lived not just on the Italian peninsula, but in the same rather isolated area of the Italian peninsula for at least 1000 years. Are my scores too, "just a coincidence"?
Click to expand...

I highly doubt such an estimate (70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like") is accurate, first because it is plausible to think that Minoan-like people had largely disappeared by the Iron Age and after, when the modern Italian cline began to take shape, and second because an Italic/Minoan cline falls too far west of the aforementioned Italian cline that was also caused by other movements and repopulations.

In the PCA below I have circled where a 70% Italic and 30% Minoan individual would plot and where you would plot, if I remember correctly you have Ligurian and Emilian origins.

EpleyFF.png
 
Wrong again.

Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. Ed. We're talking about a component heavy in Anatolian Neolithic with a portion of ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know.

As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.

On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.

I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.

Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"][/TH]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #61FF00, align: right"]0.01907727[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:817[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #69FF00, align: right"]0.02057406[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #69FF00, align: right"]0.02065721[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6EFF00, align: right"]0.02151681[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:751[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #70FF00, align: right"]0.02192317[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #70FF00, align: right"]0.02196253[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:798[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #73FF00, align: right"]0.02251245[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:GS47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #74FF00, align: right"]0.02274454[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN128LA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #77FF00, align: right"]0.02337586[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:795[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7BFF00, align: right"]0.02409433[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN212CR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7DFF00, align: right"]0.02442495[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:GS34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7EFF00, align: right"]0.02469108[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:ALP379[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7EFF00, align: right"]0.02478552[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #81FF00, align: right"]0.02522396[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02559006[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02570297[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02571523[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #84FF00, align: right"]0.02587633[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #86FF00, align: right"]0.02634186[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #87FF00, align: right"]0.02645257[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #88FF00, align: right"]0.02665773[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #88FF00, align: right"]0.02674478[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:ALP583[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02692147[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:774[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02692821[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02693907[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN46TC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02696257[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02698185[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02698524[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02726185[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02728106[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:793[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02731252[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:744[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8CFF00, align: right"]0.02736772[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:752[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02755490[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02759782[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02772782[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:741[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8EFF00, align: right"]0.02793692[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Messenia:MES-29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8FFF00, align: right"]0.02799300[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:753[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02813933[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02820586[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02821764[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #91FF00, align: right"]0.02843447[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02856289[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:Pu7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02856418[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:772[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02859414[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #93FF00, align: right"]0.02873544[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02916334[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:738[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02928948[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02938125[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02938921[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:796[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02944012[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria:BEL57[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


All his ancestors come from Napoli and the Ionian coast of Calabria, both within sight of ancient Greek settlements. I suppose it's also another "coincidence" that someone with that ancestry should be so close to the people of Crete and Deep Mani?

Good grief, he should ask for honorary Greek citizenship.

Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
 
Last edited:
matadworf said:
I agree many Greeks of the Peloponnese stayed put in their own regions for years (particularly Deep Maniates and Tsakonians) but I can only speak from the research I did on my paternal line that their families moved South to Messinia (from two villages in Arcadia) with their flocks in the 18th century. I’ve since spoken to someone in Greece about the history of those 2 villages and there’s historical (oral nonetheless) that they were from Epirus. I do think there was some moving around (particularly sheep/goatherders). By no means was I suggesting that Maniates or Tsakonians are from the North (sorry it came across like that). I do believe those two populations in particular have been in Southern Greece for thousands of years
Click to expand...

Do you know the exact villages in question? My paternal line supposedly moved from the Arcadian side of the Arcado-messinian border to northern Messinia around 1800 but they weren’t shepherds. We do not have any known arvanite connection (arvanite villages in messinia form a specific cluster to this day, centered around Dorion aka Soulima, and we are from elsewhere) so if there is one it must be from 18th century Arcadia.
 
Kuivamaa said:
Do you know the exact villages in question? My paternal line supposedly moved from the Arcadian side of the Arcado-messinian border to northern Messinia around 1800 but they weren’t shepherds. We do not have any known arvanite connection (arvanite villages in messinia form a specific cluster to this day, centered around Dorion aka Soulima, and we are from elsewhere) so if there is one it must be from 18th century Arcadia.
Click to expand...

Yes my paternal grandparents’ were originally from two villages (mile apart) in the mountains SW of Petalidi (Kokkinon and Paneika) Messinia. These 2 villages were settled by sheepherders from Arcadia. My grandfather’s family settled in Messinia in the 17th c from Alonistaina Arcadia and my grandmother’s from the adjacent village of Roino. Those villages aren’t terribly far from Levidi. My mom’s dad was an Arvanite from Aetos Messinia and his family was originally (18th c) from an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis.
 
Er Monnezza said:
I highly doubt such an estimate (70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like") is accurate, first because it is plausible to think that Minoan-like people had largely disappeared by the Iron Age and after, when the modern Italian cline began to take shape, and second because an Italic/Minoan cline falls too far west of the aforementioned Italian cline that was also caused by other movements and repopulations.
Click to expand...


I don't think that "Minoan-like people" should be intended litterally as Minoans, but as a population derived from Minoans, corresponding roughly to the Aegean bronze age cluster (wich is, infact, a bit more north-east shifted).
 
Angela said:
Wrong again.

Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. We're talking about a component heavy in ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know.

As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.

On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.

I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.

Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"][/TH]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #61FF00, align: right"]0.01907727[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:817[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #69FF00, align: right"]0.02057406[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #69FF00, align: right"]0.02065721[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6EFF00, align: right"]0.02151681[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:751[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #70FF00, align: right"]0.02192317[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #70FF00, align: right"]0.02196253[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:798[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #73FF00, align: right"]0.02251245[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:GS47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #74FF00, align: right"]0.02274454[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN128LA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #77FF00, align: right"]0.02337586[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:795[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7BFF00, align: right"]0.02409433[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN212CR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7DFF00, align: right"]0.02442495[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:GS34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7EFF00, align: right"]0.02469108[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:ALP379[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7EFF00, align: right"]0.02478552[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #81FF00, align: right"]0.02522396[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02559006[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02570297[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02571523[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #84FF00, align: right"]0.02587633[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #86FF00, align: right"]0.02634186[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #87FF00, align: right"]0.02645257[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #88FF00, align: right"]0.02665773[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #88FF00, align: right"]0.02674478[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:ALP583[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02692147[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:774[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02692821[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02693907[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN46TC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02696257[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02698185[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02698524[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02726185[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02728106[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:793[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02731252[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:744[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8CFF00, align: right"]0.02736772[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:752[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02755490[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02759782[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02772782[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:741[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8EFF00, align: right"]0.02793692[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Messenia:MES-29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8FFF00, align: right"]0.02799300[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:753[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02813933[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02820586[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02821764[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #91FF00, align: right"]0.02843447[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02856289[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:Pu7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02856418[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:772[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02859414[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #93FF00, align: right"]0.02873544[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02916334[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:738[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02928948[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02938125[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02938921[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:796[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02944012[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria:BEL57[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


All his ancestors come from Napoli and the Ionian coast of Calabria, both within sight of ancient Greek settlements. I suppose it's also another "coincidence" that someone with that ancestry should be so close to the people of Crete and Deep Mani?

Good grief, he should ask for honorary Greek citizenship.

Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
Click to expand...

Wow his top 6 are all Greek! Beautiful!
 
Er Monnezza: Regarding the ancient Greeks, here are my G25 simulated distances vs. the ancient Greeks. Personally distances < 0.05 are in my view not bad when you are talking about a Bronze Age population. I also provided Dodecad12B.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04038985[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04572758[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.04910292[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.05721194[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.06039257[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.06451359[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.06715366[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.06777463[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #02FF00, align: right"]0.07226258[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.07688129[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.07833817[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08132781[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08498680[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08603116[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08751703[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.08888468[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.09012269[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.09016593[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.09765612[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.10024850[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #03FF00, align: right"]0.10234243[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #04FF00, align: right"]0.10989734[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #04FF00, align: right"]0.11253184[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #04FF00, align: right"]0.12455383[/TD]
[TD]GRC_N:I5427

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Dodecad 12B
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8900, align: right"]10.96465686[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]13.09711037[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]13.29675524[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0058, align: right"]17.59052586[/TD]
[TD]Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006F, align: right"]18.26833873[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0071, align: right"]18.31004369[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A6, align: right"]19.87612638[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C4, align: right"]20.75969894[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CA, align: right"]20.95289717[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CD, align: right"]21.02275434[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E5, align: right"]21.73581837[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FA, align: right"]22.36079381[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FB, align: right"]22.39674083[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BB00FF, align: right"]24.49760396[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7200FF, align: right"]26.66040322[/TD]
[TD]Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
matadworf said:
Wow his top 6 are all Greek! Beautiful!
Click to expand...

It's fitting for someone who was a Classics Minor in university, I suppose, and studied Ancient Greek Literature so intently. :)
 
These are his results from the G25 Europa by Lars:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"][/TH]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #86FF00, align: right"]0.02634406[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02944012[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria:BEL57[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #97FF00, align: right"]0.02962038[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9AFF00, align: right"]0.03021238[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria:ALP582[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9BFF00, align: right"]0.03039302[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria:ALP596[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A8FF00, align: right"]0.03295897[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AEFF00, align: right"]0.03420458[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BEFF00, align: right"]0.03722615[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C4FF00, align: right"]0.03839199[/TD]
[TD]Maltese:Malta8AM91[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]0.04322283[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E1FF00, align: right"]0.04414997[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E4FF00, align: right"]0.04473829[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FBFF00, align: right"]0.04916314[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF700, align: right"]0.05150904[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF300, align: right"]0.05242056[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Anatolia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF000, align: right"]0.05298864[/TD]
[TD]talian_Tuscany:MURLO114[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE300, align: right"]0.05548768[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche:MarABU050D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE300, align: right"]0.05549273[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany:NA20502[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD700, align: right"]0.05783949[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD000, align: right"]0.05926052[/TD]
[TD]Albanian:AL82[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB400, align: right"]0.06470630[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6C00, align: right"]0.07877493[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Trabzon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6200, align: right"]0.08076106[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Razgrad2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4E00, align: right"]0.08472952[/TD]
[TD]Gagauz:GAG-183[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]0.08973513[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese:EBC_Portugal2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Still a lot of Greeks. This guy must not have a lot of samples from Campania, Crete, or Deep Mani.
 
Angela said:
Wrong again.

Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. We're talking about a component heavy in ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know.
Click to expand...

Why call Minoan-like a component rich in Anatolia_BA? Anatolia_BA (Isparta_EBA) is as distant to Minoans as Campania is to Veneto, ethnically speaking. They are not at all the same.

About 87% of the ancestry of Minoans is purely Anatolian Neolithic, Anatolia_BA instead has about 65%, not counting the CHG, Iran_N and Natufian of the latter which is less present in the former.

Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 0.0412% / 0.04124206
49.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
37.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
7.1 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264
4.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
1.2 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750

Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA
Distance: 0.0423% / 0.04233144
57.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
15.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
7.3 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
6.9 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750
2.7 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264

Angela said:
As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.

On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.
Click to expand...

Interesting, could you share your Dodecad K12b values? There are no privacy concerns as they are completely anonymous values.

Angela said:
I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. We actually have radically different views.

As shown in the PCA, the modern Italian cline takes a completely different path from the one you suggest (Italics → Anatolians/Minoans). You already know where I want to go with this, but it is not the topic of this thread so I will stop here.

CFS7CWq.png


Angela said:
Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"][/TH]
[TH="align: left"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #61FF00, align: right"]0.01907727[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:817[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #69FF00, align: right"]0.02057406[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #69FF00, align: right"]0.02065721[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6EFF00, align: right"]0.02151681[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:751[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #70FF00, align: right"]0.02192317[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #70FF00, align: right"]0.02196253[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:798[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #73FF00, align: right"]0.02251245[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:GS47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #74FF00, align: right"]0.02274454[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN128LA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #77FF00, align: right"]0.02337586[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:795[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7BFF00, align: right"]0.02409433[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN212CR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7DFF00, align: right"]0.02442495[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:GS34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7EFF00, align: right"]0.02469108[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:ALP379[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7EFF00, align: right"]0.02478552[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #81FF00, align: right"]0.02522396[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02559006[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02570297[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #83FF00, align: right"]0.02571523[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #84FF00, align: right"]0.02587633[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #86FF00, align: right"]0.02634186[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #87FF00, align: right"]0.02645257[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #88FF00, align: right"]0.02665773[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #88FF00, align: right"]0.02674478[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:ALP583[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02692147[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:774[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02692821[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02693907[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN46TC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02696257[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02698185[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02698524[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02726185[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:Crete5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02728106[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:793[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]0.02731252[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:744[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8CFF00, align: right"]0.02736772[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:752[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02755490[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02759782[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8DFF00, align: right"]0.02772782[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:741[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8EFF00, align: right"]0.02793692[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Messenia:MES-29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8FFF00, align: right"]0.02799300[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:753[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02813933[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02820586[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02821764[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #91FF00, align: right"]0.02843447[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02856289[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:Pu7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02856418[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:772[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]0.02859414[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #93FF00, align: right"]0.02873544[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02916334[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:738[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02928948[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02938125[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02938921[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete:796[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02944012[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria:BEL57[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


All his ancestors come from Napoli and the Ionian coast of Calabria, both within sight of ancient Greek settlements. I suppose it's also another "coincidence" that someone with that ancestry should be so close to the people of Crete and Deep Mani?

Good grief, he should ask for honorary Greek citizenship.

Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
Click to expand...

They get it if they have it. Your husband is closer to the very Greeks who have less.

The fact that mainland Greeks and to some extent island Greeks have Slavic ancestry, in different proportions, is shown by Dodecad K12b itself. In a PCA you can just see a cline going from Poland/Ukraine to Central Greece.

D5G5T3s.png
 
Er Monnezza said:
Why call Minoan-like a component rich in Anatolia_BA? Anatolia_BA (Isparta_EBA) is as distant to Minoans as Campania is to Veneto, ethnically speaking. They are not at all the same.

About 87% of the ancestry of Minoans is purely Anatolian Neolithic, Anatolia_BA instead has about 65%, not counting the CHG, Iran_N and Natufian of the latter which is less present in the former.

Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
Distance: 0.0412% / 0.04124206
49.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
37.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
7.1 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264
4.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
1.2 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750

Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA
Distance: 0.0423% / 0.04233144
57.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
15.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
7.3 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
6.9 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750
2.7 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264



Interesting, could you share your Dodecad K12b values? There are no privacy concerns as they are completely anonymous values.



I don't think so. We actually have radically different views.

As shown in the PCA, the modern Italian cline takes a completely different path from the one you suggest (Italics → Anatolians/Minoans). You already know where I want to go with this, but it is not the topic of this thread so I will stop here.

CFS7CWq.png




They get it if they have it. Your husband is closer to the very Greeks who have less.

The fact that mainland Greeks and to some extent island Greeks have Slavic ancestry, in different proportions, is shown by Dodecad K12b itself. In a PCA you can just see a cline going from Poland/Ukraine to Central Greece.

D5G5T3s.png
Click to expand...
I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?
 
matadworf said:
I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?
Click to expand...

I don't know who did the averages and how accurate they are, but this is what comes out.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]Greek_Macedonia[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.75883484[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.76618232[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Vardar[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.82548624[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1.94617574[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.39703984[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Polog[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2.98494556[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.46690063[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3.99801201[/TD]
[TD]Moldovan_Gagauz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.29685932[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.06928003[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.19929803[/TD]
[TD]Pomak_Bulgaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.21098839[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Angela said:
Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
Click to expand...

Not really if you use Italic samples.
Cretans are an off shot of Ancient Greeks, Anatolians and some Slavic but they lack the Italic element which the Calabrese has. When you include future samples from Italic people of Calabria, Calabrese wont need any Slavic admixture like the Cretans do.
 
matadworf said:
I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?
Click to expand...

I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?

yffVDxL.png
 
Pax Augusta said:
I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?

yffVDxL.png
Click to expand...

It is a Slavophone Macedonian, they are closer to Bulgarians while Grecophones of Macedonia are closer to Peloponnesians.
 
ihype02 said:
It is a Slavophone Macedonian, they are closer to Bulgarians while Grecophones of Macedonia are closer to Peloponnesians.
Click to expand...

Agreed, the academic sample is clearly based on Slavic-speaking individuals from Greece.
 
Pax Augusta said:
I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?


yffVDxL.png
Click to expand...

Yes probably because most PCAs I've seen Greek Macedonians tend to cluster with Thessalians and to a lesser extent Peloponnesians.
 
T-rolls starting from Sikeliot have asked me for my data for 12 years. You think I'm going to give it to "you" so you can manipulate it? You must be mad.

My results from Jovialis' calculator:

Distance to:Angela
3.8389687727.00% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019


Not bad for such ancient samples. So much for Davidski coming on here to tell me if I thought I'd have ancestry from ancient inhabitants of the Italian peninsula I was crazy. Yeah, ok.

Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker:

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TH="class: cms_table_singleheader, colspan: 2, align: center"]Distance: 1.2242% / 1.22419699[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]49.8[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Latins_(n=4)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]43.8[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Mycenaean_Greeks_(n=4)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.1[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Yamna_culture_(n=13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Early_Neolithic_Iran_(n=6)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.1[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Greeks_(n=2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #41FF00, align: right"]1.92071940[/TD]
[TD]63.60% Latins_(n=4) + 36.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


If I'm right about the "Italian Greek" samples, and they are half Latin, then, dividing the 35.40 by 2, I get an additional 18.2% Latin/Ancient Roman, for a total of 81.8%. I'll take that. :)

There are others, but I think my point is made.


Please don't keep addressing my posts. You'll get no further responses from me. There's nothing to learn from t-rolls, so you will be going on ignore.
 
Angela: I have been meaning to ask you this. The picture on your profile there that is perhaps your 1) Husband? if Not, 2) the person looks very similar to the Italian actor who played in the movie Transatlantic (ie. Adriano Giannini).

Regarding your question earlier about why I often get close distances with mainlanders, I gave a brief response but not one in detail in this forum. I just got my ancestry update and it shows 67% Southern Italian along with 21% Greek and Albanian. I get 9% Northern Italian, so that is 97% there. The other is about 2% Levant, 1% UK (I think Norman signal) and it has < 1% North African which is at I would think Trace level.

My opinion, and that is all it is, I don't think my results are an anomaly for Sicily as Pax noted, he has looked I would assume at those academic samples and indicated that Sicilians can plot with Calabria all the way to Abruzzo. Dodecad12B (updated regional averages, on used Italian Regional averages). G25 modern averages scaled. I think results are similar with those individual G25 results I posted earlier.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #79FF00, align: right"]3.55695094[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #82FF00, align: right"]3.83109645[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]4.03399306[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C7FF00, align: right"]5.85703850[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]6.29590343[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]7.04365275[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFA00, align: right"]7.65706210[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCE00, align: right"]8.92854971[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9A00, align: right"]10.45749014[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3E00, align: right"]13.19033737[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0100, align: right"]14.95717219[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0014, align: right"]15.59693880[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007B, align: right"]18.60546156[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0080, align: right"]18.76266506[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0085, align: right"]18.91842752[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00AE, align: right"]20.12546645[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F200FF, align: right"]22.89381139[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9300FF, align: right"]25.68230909[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Aosta_Valley

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

G25 modern averages: Distances <= 0.029
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]0.01454319[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]0.01467787[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.01578753[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.01773697[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.01877336[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02031561[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02059654[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02181560[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02262314[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02453796[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02454989[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02598987[/TD]
[TD]Maltese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02656442[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02736723[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Germany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02749535[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02752555[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02881994[/TD]
[TD]Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02889421[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Poland[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02911099[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Belarussia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02941709[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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