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Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Palermo Trapani said:
Metadworf: Yes, those Northern Italian samples are in line with the Raveane et al 2019 paper I linked earlier which put NItaly6 at about 28%. So as I said 25-30% is reasonable estimate for Northern Italy using amateur calculators in my view. Haak et al 2015 "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" has a nice clean admixture model (chart) which has modern Greeks (which I assume is a random sample from all regions of modern Greece). Figure 3 is presented and my eyeball summary suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greeks which would put it in line with modern Central Italy (all regions) which is about 20-25%. Tuscany being the higher end of Central Italy with about 25% based on my eyeball test. So Greeks and Albanians plotting slightly SE of Central Italy would be consistent with the results presented in Haak et al 2015. Now, this is a 2015 paper, but a very respected paper, and it would be good to have some other studies with admixture charts to review along with this paper.

0cjdWdn.jpg


So a couple of thoughts, the models you ran that show 30% for those Greek samples, where are they from? One thing I think could be interesting is for you to take those G25 modern Greek samples and run an admixture model with WHG, EEF, Steppe, and other components from the Near East that like Iran and Levant Neolithic and try to model all those modern Greek samples to get an overall average. BTW, are those samples self submitted from various genetics blog site members (e.g., a Eupedia member who is from Greece, someone that use to be on Anthrogenica, etc) or are they from academic papers and one would hope that they are randomly drawn from the regions of Greece, etc.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that some are from academic samples other's not. The one thing I can say about my own raw data is that all four of my grandparents were born in the Peloponnese (I know each of their villages and history) before 1890 which is what Stamatayanopolous used for his own paper.
 
matadworf: Ok that makes sense. Hey not questioning your results. They are that they are. Given you have all those G25 coordinates, trying to model them using the source populations you used in post #117 could give a better picture about what the average Steppe ancestry is for those samples. In your specific case, I think you are going to be in the right tail of the distribution and have higher Steppe than say the average for Greek populations, assuming that 20% Steppe from Haak et al 2015 is the correct population average and not just reflects the average for the samples they were able to obtain for that paper. So just visualize a Bell shaped curve with a Mean and half the distribution to the right of the mean and half to the Left 95% of the population in a large enough sample (N=30 should do the trick if randomly drawn) will be within 2 Standard deviations. 99% within 3. I suspect you fall in that 3 Sd range and 1% will be statistically outliers.

Like I said, I appreciate your work. I just roll in way that I always try to match up my own personal results and amateur calculators for say modern Italian populations from the various 20 regions to what the extant published papers are reporting.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
matadworf: Ok that makes sense. Hey not questioning your results. They are that they are. Given you have all those G25 coordinates, trying to model them using the source populations you used in post #117 could give a better picture about what the average Steppe ancestry is for those samples. In your specific case, I think you are going to be in the right tail of the distribution and have higher Steppe than say the average for Greek populations, assuming that 20% Steppe from Haak et al 2015 is the correct population average and not just reflects the average for the samples they were able to obtain for that paper. So just visualize a Bell shaped curve with a Mean and half the distribution to the right of the mean and half to the Left 95% of the population in a large enough sample (N=30 should do the trick if randomly drawn) will be within 2 Standard deviations. 99% within 3. I suspect you fall in that 3 Sd range and 1% will be statistically outliers.

Like I said, I appreciate your work. I just roll in way that I always try to match up my own personal results and amateur calculators for say modern Italian populations from the various 20 regions to what the extant published papers are reporting.
Click to expand...

Oh no I'm just trying to understand all of this as well. I added Iran Neolithic to Greek averages:



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Arcadia
Distance: 2.0346% / 0.02034605

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]44.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]25.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Argolis
Distance: 1.9159% / 0.01915860

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]45.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]27.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 1.6071% / 0.01607104

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]38.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]24.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_East_Taygetos
Distance: 1.8016% / 0.01801639

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]41.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Messenia
Distance: 1.9475% / 0.01947503

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]45.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]27.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]15.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]9.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

Me:


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.4935% / 0.02493470

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]56.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]29.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.6912% / 0.01691160

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]48.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]29.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]


M

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Messenia
Distance: 1.9347% / 0.01934655

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]44.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]23.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]9.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]
 
Italian averages:


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 2.0057% / 0.02005748
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]37.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]24.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Araxes_ARM_Kaps[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 2.3286% / 0.02328606
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]42.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]23.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Marche
Distance: 2.1384% / 0.02138374
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]45.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.3206% / 0.02320643
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]48.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]28.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Umbria
Distance: 2.4622% / 0.02462230
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]45.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Veneto
Distance: 2.4246% / 0.02424648
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]52.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]33.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]
 
matadworf said:
Italian averages:


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 2.0057% / 0.02005748[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]37.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]24.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Araxes_ARM_Kaps[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 2.3286% / 0.02328606[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]42.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]23.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Marche
Distance: 2.1384% / 0.02138374[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]45.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.3206% / 0.02320643[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]48.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]28.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Umbria
Distance: 2.4622% / 0.02462230[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]45.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Italian_Veneto
Distance: 2.4246% / 0.02424648[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]52.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]33.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]
Click to expand...



Despite what its followers say, the G25 is not a professional tool. Even if it were a professional tool, it is not enough. Because it should be used with a professional approach, certainly not an amateur one. I find yours results scarcely credible. Levant PNBB is almost 50% EEF, IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is a medieval sample based on only one individual who lived in Iran around 1400-1500 AD (I1955, Late Middle Ages), IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is certainly not an ancestral component. Playing 5 minutes with the G25 is enough to show different results from yours.

Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are only estimates depending on the model, samples and tool used.


lc0jGNj.png
 
If I use the same model with the Greek samples that you used with the Italians, you get these results.

Levant PPNB has a more western position than all the samples from Iran, closer to the original Anatolian farmers. Southern Europeans further west in a PCA tend to get more Levant PPNB, those further east the medieval IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic.


hPTqn3k.png
 
Sorry, wrong thread.
 
Pax Augusta said:
Despite what its followers say, the G25 is not a professional tool. Even if it were a professional tool, it is not enough. Because it should be used with a professional approach, certainly not an amateur one. I find yours results scarcely credible. Levant PNBB is almost 50% EEF, IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is a medieval sample based on only one individual who lived in Iran around 1400-1500 AD (I1955, Late Middle Ages), IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is certainly not an ancestral component. Playing 5 minutes with the G25 is enough to show different results from yours.

Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are only estimates depending on the model, samples and tool used.


lc0jGNj.png
Click to expand...

Ok thanks I wasn’t completely sure and yes I realize that trying to model modem populations with these ancient components (from some of these non academic samples) is difficult. Is there a reasonable Neolithic Iranian sample? It seems like their distances from CHG is pretty significant.
 
matadworf said:
Ok thanks I wasn’t completely sure and yes I realize that trying to model modem populations with these ancient components (from some of these non academic samples) is difficult. Is there a reasonable Neolithic Iranian sample? It seems like their distances from CHG is pretty significant. Also I was guessing that it was a sample from the Neolithic site. Just didn’t catch the historical ref. Immediately. Hey it’s trial and error in good fun.
Click to expand...
 
matadworf said:
Ok thanks I wasn’t completely sure and yes I realize that trying to model modem populations with these ancient components (from some of these non academic samples) is difficult. Is there a reasonable Neolithic Iranian sample? It seems like their distances from CHG is pretty significant. Also I was guessing that it was a sample from the Neolithic site. Just didn’t catch the historical ref. Immediately. Hey it’s trial and error in good fun.
Click to expand...


If I checked correctly, there are three samples from Neolithic Iran: IRN_Ganj_Dareh, IRN_Wezmeh_N, IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N. They are very similar but not identical. One has to check in the studies which one is most used to represent Iran_N.

The position of the ancestral components in a PCA. As you can see, both Levant_PPNB and Levant_Natufian end up very close to Tur_Barcin_N who are the Anatolian Farmers of the Neolithic (despite PPNB and Natufian aren't the same). A 3D PCA, however, shows you a few more differences.

W6P19Qw.png



rW8gdbh.png


qyHccav.png


u5gRuAT.png
 
Pax Augusta: If You don't mind, what is the averages for all the Greek samples from post #128. Particularly the Yamnaya.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Pax Augusta: If You don't mind, what is the averages for all the Greek samples from post #128. Particularly the Yamnaya.
Click to expand...


I had to redo it because I had deleted it. Check if it is exactly the same. Consider that the model is wrong as explained before and includes all samples labelled as Greek, which also includes Slavic language minorities and Greek communities in Turkey. Yamnaya on average is 16.9%.


rUCie0a.png


2r9r42m.png
 
Pax Augusta: Ok, thanks. Yes, I noted earlier but the notion of modern Greeks with 30% Steppe admixture does not seem to match with published papers. As documented in Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2), Northern Italy 6 seems about 28% Steppe and Northern Italy is I would think on average 25-28%, depending on the region. Haak et al 2015 Figure 3 which I posted earlier suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greece, which could be again only from certain regions. But since Modern Greece and Albanian seem to plot next to Central Italians for the most part, who maybe range 20-25% Steppe with Tuscany being on the high end of that range, those suggesting modern Greeks are 30% maybe slightly more Steppe seems not in line with what has been published.

Franceso in post 125 also posted Figure 2 from the Raveane et al 2022 "Assessing temporal and geographic contacts across the Adriatic Sea through the analysis of genome-wide data from Southern Italy" and it doesn't indicate 30% or more Steppe in modern Greeks either.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Pax Augusta: Ok, thanks. Yes, I noted earlier but the notion of modern Greeks with 30% Steppe admixture does not seem to match with published papers. As documented in Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2), Northern Italy 6 seems about 28% Steppe and Northern Italy is I would think on average 25-28%, depending on the region. Haak et al 2015 Figure 3 which I posted earlier suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greece, which could be again only from certain regions. But since Modern Greece and Albanian seem to plot next to Central Italians for the most part, who maybe range 20-25% Steppe with Tuscany being on the high end of that range, those suggesting modern Greeks are 30% maybe slightly more Steppe seems not in line with what has been published.

Franceso in post 125 also posted Figure 2 from the Raveane et al 2022 "Assessing temporal and geographic contacts across the Adriatic Sea through the analysis of genome-wide data from Southern Italy" and it doesn't indicate 30% or more Steppe in modern Greeks either.
Click to expand...

I repeat what I have already said, and in my opinion this applies both to results obtained with amateur tools and those published in academic articles. Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are just estimates that depend on the model, the samples and the tools used. Therefore, they should always be taken as possible indications and not as something definitive.

Then we usually refer to regional averages, and if it is true that in populations showing a cline (virtually all large populations usually, with a few exceptions) there are statistically relevant trends, on an individual level it is more complicated, for so many reasons, because people are not clones. If two brothers or sisters do not have 100% identical raw data, let alone two people who are not related even if they are descended from people who have lived in the same area for the last few centuries. Generally speaking, Italians and Greeks belong to two different clines, with a certain overlap in the southernmost part of both. Globally, if one includes all populations of the world, these differences are almost statistically insignificant. They are more significant differences if one looks with a magnifying glass only at Europe or, even better, Eurasia.
 
It appears that one or more of those samples from Iran you have used are absorbing their fair share of Yamnaya. The 0.6% Yamnaya in a Dodecanesian is quite low.



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 2.1593% / 0.02159286[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]56.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_Natufian[/TD]
 
Pax Augusta said:
I repeat what I have already said, and in my opinion this applies both to results obtained with amateur tools and those published in academic articles. Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are just estimates that depend on the model, the samples and the tools used. Therefore, they should always be taken as possible indications and not as something definitive.

Then we usually refer to regional averages, but on an individual level it is even more complicated, for so many reasons, because people are not clones, and if even two brothers or sisters do not have 100% identical raw data, let alone two people who are not related even if they are descended from people who have lived in the same area for the last few centuries. Generally speaking, Italians and Greeks belong to two different clines, with a certain overlap in the southernmost part of both. Globally, if one includes all populations of the world, these differences are almost statistically insignificant. They are more significant differences if one looks with a magnifying glass only at Europe or, even better, Eurasia.
Click to expand...

Yes, they are indeed estimates and the estimates obtained are indeed related to the methodology used by the researcher or amateur tool creator. Nevertheless, when a large body of literature (several papers), using different samples, models, etc show a result consistently, it suggest to me the results are a plausible model to explain admixture/ancestry for a population group. Not that is definitive but plausible because as you suggest there can always be new samples taken from a population and it is possible that the samples used as you note in academic papers only represent a "region within a region" and averages from that sub-region may not be the same as the average from another sub-region and thus the entire region (i.e. say the various 9 provinces in Sicily and drawing samples from only 1 or 2 of the provinces and only a few towns within those provinces). From that perspective, to the degree an amateur calculator and model developed from one of those calculators can approximate, within reason, the academic papers, I take that as a plausible model. On the other hand, when amateurs use models that have no basis in any published papers, I tend to question them.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Yes, they are indeed estimates and the estimates obtained are indeed related to the methodology used by the researcher or amateur tool creator. Nevertheless, when a large body of literature (several papers), using different samples, models, etc show a result consistently, it suggest to me the results are a plausible model to explain admixture/ancestry for a population group. Not that is definitive but plausible because as you suggest there can always be new samples taken from a population and it is possible that the samples used as you note in academic papers only represent a "region within a region" and averages from that sub-region may not be the same as the average from another sub-region and thus the entire region (i.e. say the various 9 provinces in Sicily and drawing samples from only 1 or 2 of the provinces and only a few towns within those provinces). From that perspective, to the degree an amateur calculator and model developed from one of those calculators can approximate, within reason, the academic papers, I take that as a plausible model. On the other hand, when amateurs use models that have no basis in any published papers, I tend to question them.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. There is no doubt that the greatest number of errors can be seen at the amateur level. But this obviously does not make academic papers error-free.
 
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