Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

me below

Distance to: Veritus_scaled
0.01668100 Italian_Veneto:ALP249
0.01917044 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
0.02042612 Italian_Veneto:ALP322
0.02147385 Italian_Northeast:ALP233
0.02198151 Italian_Northeast:KF2700960
0.02202233 Italian_Northeast:KF1800761
0.02222737 Italian_Northeast:ALP280
0.02322639 Italian_Northeast:ALP506
0.02457977 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
0.02540501 Italian_Liguria:ALP099
0.02545644 Italian_Lombardy:BGD103
0.02684515 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
0.02693720 Italian_Veneto:ALP250
0.02759014 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont98
0.02761297 Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.02817449 Italian_Veneto:ALP273
0.02846632 Italian_Veneto:ALP040
0.02880684 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta18
0.02931015 Italian_Veneto:ALP022
0.02936533 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
0.02974206 Italian_Lombardy:BGD31
0.02975678 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
0.03020093 Italian_Veneto:KF1803109
0.03028001 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
0.03060385 Italian_Veneto:ALP209


Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0104% / 0.01037437
48.7 Italian_Northeast
19.6 Italian_Veneto
14.6 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
7.6 Italian_Campania
5.0 Italian_Marche
2.8 Italian_Lombardy
1.1 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.6 Italian_Bergamo



and my father below

Distance to: PonsanG25
0.01437478 Italian_Northeast:KF1800761
0.01701881 Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.01747194 Italian_Veneto:ALP250
0.01826642 Italian_Veneto:ALP022
0.02050759 Italian_Veneto:Alp100
0.02056261 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147
0.02062747 Italian_Veneto:ALP273
0.02095686 Italian_Piedmont:piedmont61
0.02097287 Italian_Veneto:KF1800751
0.02104839 Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
0.02112585 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
0.02122525 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259
0.02152221 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152
0.02168709 Italian_Veneto:Alp401
0.02199089 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
0.02289691 Italian_Northeast:ALP233
0.02302960 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
0.02312385 Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.02313192 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
0.02359938 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
0.02371097 Italian_Northeast:ALP093
0.02411679 Italian_Veneto:ALP322
0.02420643 Italian_Northeast:ALP280
0.02425716 Italian_Veneto:ALP249


Target: PonsanG25
Distance: 0.0027% / 0.00274490
32.6 Italian_Veneto
28.4 Italian_Northeast
26.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
6.4 Italian_Campania
6.4 Italian_Tuscany
 
Er Monnezza said:
As shown in the PCA, the modern Italian cline takes a completely different path from the one you suggest (Italics → Anatolians/Minoans). You already know where I want to go with this, but it is not the topic of this thread so I will stop here.
CFS7CWq.png
Click to expand...
I'm still wondering why academic PCAs, on the other hand, sistematically show a totally different cline, actually going from western mediterranean to Aegean Bronze Age

 
matadworf said:
Yes my paternal grandparents’ were originally from two villages (mile apart) in the mountains SW of Petalidi (Kokkinon and Paneika) Messinia. These 2 villages were settled by sheepherders from Arcadia. My grandfather’s family settled in Messinia in the 17th c from Alonistaina Arcadia and my grandmother’s from the adjacent village of Roino. Those villages aren’t terribly far from Levidi. My mom’s dad was an Arvanite from Aetos Messinia and his family was originally (18th c) from an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis.
Click to expand...
Yes, Aetos is like 5km south of Dorion and core part of the Arvanite zone. I’ll check my own distances first chance,paternally I come from the area between Zevgolateion and Neochori, (reportedly distantly related to Maria Callas) and everybody on this side looks stereotypically Greek to an extreme level (including me). The maternal side comes from Spercheios Valley in Phthiotis and this could make the results more interesting.
 
Francesco said:
I'm still wondering why academic PCAs, on the other hand, sistematically show a totally different cline, actually going from western mediterranean to Aegean Bronze Age
Click to expand...

If it shows Mycenaeans overlapping with Sicilians there is projection bias, it is now well known that they do not overlap with any population living today (see the distances all over 10 with modern populations in Dodecad K12b).
 
Er Monnezza said:
If it shows Mycenaeans overlapping with Sicilians there is projection bias, it is now well known that they do not overlap with any population living today (see the distances all over 10 with modern populations in Dodecad K12b).
Click to expand...

Infact they do not overlap, Sicilians are shifted towards central Italy.
 
Francesco said:
I'm still wondering why academic PCAs, on the other hand, sistematically show a totally different cline, actually going from western mediterranean to Aegean Bronze Age
Click to expand...

More or less, PCAs show always the same thing. The more samples there are, the more detailed a PCA is and the more, in my opinion, accurate the positions are. It's just that different software are used and PCAs can be oriented differently, and different samples are used, even numerically. In that academic PCA for example, only a few samples per population are used to represent modern populations.

Indeed, 3 out of 4 Mycenaeans in that PCA show some overlap with southern Italians, Sicilians, Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews. However, I doubt that such a PCA, which is meant to show the big picture, is to be taken completely literally in specific cases. For Italians are Italian North, Italian South, Sicilian and Sardinian. For Italian North at a glance I would say that there are 13 individuals of North Italian/Bergamo HGDP + 8 individuals of Tuscan HGDP, for Italian South it could be the ITS samples, for Sicilian the samples are likely a mix of West, Central and East Sicilians, the Sardinians are probably HGDP Sardinians. For Greeks and for many other etnicities there is only one sample set, for Spanish there are two (or three, if Basques are included).


The PCA is the same as above, I just rotated it, and inserted some labels for better orientation.

lSQWIhV.jpg
 
Kuivamaa said:
Yes, Aetos is like 5km south of Dorion and core part of the Arvanite zone. I’ll check my own distances first chance,paternally I come from the area between Zevgolateion and Neochori, (reportedly distantly related to Maria Callas) and everybody on this side looks stereotypically Greek to an extreme level (including me). The maternal side comes from Spercheios Valley in Phthiotis and this could make the results more interesting.
Click to expand...

Was Maria Callas' family from Mani?
 
I completely forgot to add the NE Empuries 2:
Distance to:Anthony_C_scaled
0.02880945GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.04225267GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.05946375Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
0.06017545GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.06712894GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.06894134Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
0.07635423GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.08201980GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.08911764GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.08991847GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.09047390GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.09600165GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.09753253GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.09761076GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.10302050GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.10552084GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.10652826GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.10730957GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.10841855GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.10981169GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005

 
Er Monnezza said:
If it shows Mycenaeans overlapping with Sicilians there is projection bias, it is now well known that they do not overlap with any population living today (see the distances all over 10 with modern populations in Dodecad K12b).
Click to expand...

Er Monnezza: I think it is fair to say that no modern peoples today are exactly like Bronze Age populations. So perhaps there is a semantics issue here. The Mycenaeans based on the genomes we have clearly a people that would be described as Southern European based on admixture and PCA plots. So which populations today are closest to the ancient Mycenaeans is perhaps a better way analyze and discuss it.

As we get more ancient data, I think it will be more and more shown that modern European populations converge to where they are today in the Iron Age.

On another note, using Dodecad12B, or Eurogenes K13/15/G25, MDLP, etc. cutoff distances to determine how close a modern person is to modern population averages, for example Dodecad cutoff of 5 is normally suggested, I have seen some use 7, G25 <0.03 is the critical value for modern, etc. perhaps should not be applied to ancients the same way.

Lazaradis et al 2014 put it this way

"We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resembled present-day inhabitants from the same region (Extended Data Fig. 7). Modern Greeks occupy the intermediate space of the PCA along principal component 1 (Fig. 1b) between ancient European and Near Eastern populations, such as those of the Bronze Age. They are not, however, identical to Bronze Age populations, as they are above them along principal component 2 (Fig. 1b). This is because Neolithic farmers shared fewer alleles with Modern Greeks than with Mycenaeans (Extended Data Fig. 8), consistent with additional later admixture"

So there was additional later admixture in Greece but notice the language "least differentiated" not exactly the same or overlap 100%. But on the other hand, it clearly shows which moderns are closest to the Myceneans.



George Stamatoyannopoulos et al 2017 "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations andthe theory of extinction of the medievalpeloponnesean Greeks" is the paper that shows close genetic similarity between both Sicily and mainland Italy and the medeival peloponnesean Greeks. The paper states

"By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysisthe Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians andItalians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponneseansubpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Easternorigin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans andillustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

So notice "least differentiated" when comparing to the Myceneans and very similar when speaking of the medieval Peloponneseans. I think the terminology being used in my opinion needs to be consistent with what the academic articles are stating.
 
Last edited:
I completely forgot to add the NE Empuries 2:
Distance to:Anthony_C_scaled
0.02880945GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.04225267GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.05946375Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
0.06017545GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.06712894GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.06894134Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
0.07635423GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.08201980GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.08911764GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.08991847GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.09047390GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.09600165GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.09753253GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.09761076GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:pta08
0.10302050GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
0.10552084GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
0.10652826GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
0.10730957GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
0.10841855GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.10981169GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005


Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208,0.1161,0.158423,-0.017348,-0.06783,0.026774,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.001154,0.007158,0.04319,0.003573,0.015586,-0.017096,0.006468,-0.016965,-0.02559,-0.007693,-0.000253,0.00993,-0.017133,-0.003494,0.000866,0.005053,0.00241,-0.010538
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215,0.120652,0.158423,-0.000754,-0.066215,0.023697,-0.023427,0.00611,-0.009,0.002659,0.041914,0.002111,0.006894,-0.01665,0.000688,-0.020087,-0.005967,0.014864,0.001014,-0.000754,-0.008254,-0.013102,0.002226,-0.001725,0.011809,-0.006466
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Er Monnezza: I think it is fair to say that no modern peoples today are exactly like Bronze Age populations. So perhaps there is a semantics issue here. The Mycenaeans based on the genomes we have clearly a people that would be described as Southern European in that on PCA plots. So which populations today are closest to the ancient Mycenaeans is perhaps a better way analyze and discuss it.

As we get more ancient data, I think it will be more and more shown that modern European populations converge to where they are today in the Iron Age.

On another note, using Dodecad12B, or Eurogenes K13/15/G25, MDLP, etc. cutoff distances to determine how close a modern person is to modern population averages, for example Dodecad cutoff of 5 is normally suggested, I have seen some use 7, G25 <0.03 is the critical value for modern, etc. perhaps should not be applied to ancients the same way.

Lazaradis et al 2014 put it this way

"We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resembled present-day inhabitants from the same region (Extended Data Fig. 7). Modern Greeks occupy the intermediate space of the PCA along principal component 1 (Fig. 1b) between ancient European and Near Eastern populations, such as those of the Bronze Age. They are not, however, identical to Bronze Age populations, as they are above them along principal component 2 (Fig. 1b). This is because Neolithic farmers shared fewer alleles with Modern Greeks than with Mycenaeans (Extended Data Fig. 8), consistent with additional later admixture"

So there was additional later admixture in Greece but notice the language "least differentiated" not exactly the same or overlap 100%. But on the other hand, it clearly shows which moderns are closest to the Myceneans.



George Stamatoyannopoulos et al 2017 "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations andthe theory of extinction of the medievalpeloponnesean Greeks" is the paper that shows close genetic similarity between both Sicily and mainland Italy and the medeival peloponnesean Greeks. The paper states

"By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysisthe Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians andItalians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponneseansubpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Easternorigin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans andillustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

So notice "least differentiated" when comparing to the Myceneans and very similar when speaking of the medieval Peloponneseans. I think the terminology being used in my opinion needs to be consistent with what the academic articles are stating.
Click to expand...

I've made note of that "up to 14.5% Slavic ancestry" to other posters on this site (and other sites) and they insist that's it's up to 30% Slavic by using a Bronze age Aegean population and an Early Slav sample which really doesn't prove anything. You're just using using the most Neo Anatolian Bronze Age sample admixed with a heavy IE group. Modern mainland Greeks (with the exception of Deep Mani and Tsakonians) usually get somewhere around 25-32% Steppe but so does the Logkas 4 MBA (closer to 40%). The Logkas 2 get likes plus 20%. My point is that high Steppe was in Greece way before the Slavic settlements of the middle ages.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Angela: I have been meaning to ask you this. The picture on your profile there that is perhaps your 1) Husband? if Not, 2) the person looks very similar to the Italian actor who played in the movie Transatlantic (ie. Adriano Giannini).

Regarding your question earlier about why I often get close distances with mainlanders, I gave a brief response but not one in detail in this forum. I just got my ancestry update and it shows 67% Southern Italian along with 21% Greek and Albanian. I get 9% Northern Italian, so that is 97% there. The other is about 2% Levant, 1% UK (I think Norman signal) and it has < 1% North African which is at I would think Trace level.

My opinion, and that is all it is, I don't think my results are an anomaly for Sicily as Pax noted, he has looked I would assume at those academic samples and indicated that Sicilians can plot with Calabria all the way to Abruzzo. Dodecad12B (updated regional averages, on used Italian Regional averages). G25 modern averages scaled. I think results are similar with those individual G25 results I posted earlier.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
3.55695094Italian_Campania
3.83109645Italian_Abruzzo
4.03399306Italian_Sicily
5.85703850Italian_Calabria
6.29590343Italian_Apulia
7.04365275Italian_Marche
7.65706210Italian_Lazio
8.92854971Italian_Jews
10.45749014Italian_Romagna
13.19033737Italian_Tuscany
14.95717219Italian_Emilia
15.59693880Italian_Liguria
18.60546156Italian_Lombardy
18.76266506Italian_Piedmont
18.91842752Italian_Veneto
20.12546645Italian_Friuli_VG
22.89381139Italian_Trentino
25.68230909Italian_Aosta_Valley

G25 modern averages: Distances <= 0.029
Distance to:PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
0.01454319Italian_Campania
0.01467787Italian_Apulia
0.01578753Italian_Basilicata
0.01773697Italian_Abruzzo
0.01877336Sicilian_East
0.02031561Italian_Calabria
0.02059654Italian_Lazio
0.02181560Italian_Molise
0.02262314Sicilian_West
0.02453796Greek_Laconia
0.02454989Greek_Izmir
0.02598987Maltese
0.02656442Italian_Marche
0.02736723Ashkenazi_Germany
0.02749535Italian_Umbria
0.02752555Greek_Crete
0.02881994Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
0.02889421Ashkenazi_Poland
0.02911099Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.02941709Greek_Peloponnese
Click to expand...

I don't think my husband looks at all like Adriano Giannini. My husband is infinitely better looking, even today. Certainly in his prime. :)I have a new avatar; it's him the night he was inducted as President of a local organization.
 
Angela said:
I don't think my husband looks at all like Adriano Giannini. My husband is infinitely better looking, even today. Certainly in his prime. :)I have a new avatar; it's him the night he was inducted as President of a local organization.
Click to expand...

Well he had to be (still is) a handsome fellow, I remember seeing you posted your wedding party picture maybe a year ago or so. So not surprising at all. A Great looking wedding party btw. So I didn't mean any such comparison to be disrespectful :)

As for Adrianno Giannini, one of the better actors I have seen on the Italian MHZ movies and shows.

Cheers, PT
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Well he had to be (still is) a handsome fellow, I remember seeing you posted your wedding party picture maybe a year ago or so. So not surprising at all. A Great looking wedding party btw. So I didn't mean any such comparison to be disrespectful :)

As for Adrianno Giannini, one of the better actors I have seen on the Italian MHZ movies and shows.

Cheers, PT
Click to expand...

He's a good actor. I just don't like his face very much, and I think he's a quite different type from my husband. That's all I meant.

Now, if someone he knows says, I didn't know you posted on eupedia.com, I'll be in big trouble and will have to take it down. :)
 
matadworf said:
Was Maria Callas' family from Mani?
Click to expand...

From Neochori of Oichalia, not Mani. My paternal grandmother was from there as well, which is my connection to Callas. She was also a singer and my family has a couple of classically trained sopranos (I suppose this might not be random). The village itself was inhabited by messinians of nearby villages plus (Interesting enough) a few arcadians from Alonistaina.
 
matadworf said:
I've made note of that "up to 14.5% Slavic ancestry" to other posters on this site (and other sites) and they insist that's it's up to 30% Slavic by using a Bronze age Aegean population and an Early Slav sample which really doesn't prove anything. You're just using using the most Neo Anatolian Bronze Age sample admixed with a heavy IE group. Modern mainland Greeks (with the exception of Deep Mani and Tsakonians) usually get somewhere around 25-32% Steppe but so does the Logkas 4 MBA (closer to 40%). The Logkas 2 get likes plus 20%. My point is that high Steppe was in Greece way before the Slavic settlements of the middle ages.
Click to expand...

So I am not clear on if you agree with the 30% Steppe admixture in modern Greeks or not. As for my earlier post, let me clarify, clearly as I noted the Myceneans had some Steppe admixture. The 4 samples from the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper ranged from 4% to 16% Steppe. So yes there was some Steppe in Greece during the Bronze Age. On that point you are correct.

Modern Greeks most closely resemble the Myceneans per the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper but with some dilution of the Neolithic EEF ancestry (predominate source ancestry of both Minoans and Myceneans at about 75% EEF). So the Slavic admixture coming into medieval Greece could have provided additional Steppe admixture, I agree.

The Slavic admixture up to 14.5% is from the medieval could perhaps explain the 30% that those "they" indicate some Greeks have today. That is add the 16% from Mycenean + 14.5% Slavic admixture (more EHG type ancestry). However, 30% Steppe would approximate what Northern Italians have and I don't think any Greeks or even Albanians plot that with Northern Italians, maybe Central Italians who on average I think are about 20-25% Steppe I think. I could be wrong, but I don't think I have seen either Greeks or Albanians plot next to Northern Italians who based on what I have generally seen in the published papers and numerous calculators here at Eupedia get about 25-30% Steppe admixture. In fact, the Raveane et al 2019 paper
"Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries inSouthern Europe", which analyzed some 1,616 modern Italians from all 20 political regions seems to put the highest Steppe Admixture at about 27-28% in the North Italy 6 sample. See Figure 4.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw3492

So is there a paper that you can provide that shows modern Greeks with 30% Steppe admixture. I would suggest that "they", whoever "they" are cite it. Perhaps a few regions have that high, but the average for all modern Greece I don't think is that high. I think Greece is about 10.5 million people. So I would be curious about any sample selection bias for amateur calculators. I haven't seen such a paper and I tend to focus and spend most of my time on modern and ancient 1) Italian DNA and 2) modern and ancient Greek DNA. Those are the 2 lanes I tend to stay in so to speak. I think if there is a paper published in a leading journal, peer reviewed that we can see the admixture and then compare it to what the amateur/hobbyist are saying, that would be the best way to determine the correct Steppe admixture in modern Greeks.

Again, thanks for your work on the G25 coordinates.
 
Last edited:
Palermo Trapani said:
So I am not clear on if you agree with the 30% Steppe admixture in modern Greeks or not. As for my earlier post, let me clarify, clearly as I noted the Myceneans had some Steppe admixture. The 4 samples from the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper ranged from 4% to 16% Steppe. So yes there was some Steppe in Greece during the Bronze Age. On that point you are correct.

Modern Greeks most closely resemble the Myceneans per the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper but with some dilution of the Neolithic EEF ancestry (predominate source ancestry of both Minoans and Myceneans at about 75% EEF). So the Slavic admixture coming into medieval Greece could have provided additional Steppe admixture, I agree.

The Slavic admixture up to 14.5% is from the medieval could perhaps explain the 30% that those "they" indicate some Greeks have today. That is add the 16% from Mycenean + 14.5% Slavic admixture (more EHG type ancestry). However, 30% Steppe would approximate what Northern Italians have and I don't think any Greeks or even Albanians plot that with Northern Italians, maybe Central Italians who on average I think are about 20-25% Steppe I think. I could be wrong, but I don't think I have seen either Greeks or Albanians plot next to Northern Italians who based on what I have generally seen in the published papers and numerous calculators here at Eupedia get about 25-30% Steppe admixture. In fact, the Raveane et al 2019 paper
"Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries inSouthern Europe", which analyzed some 1,616 modern Italians from all 20 political regions seems to put the highest Steppe Admixture at about 27-28% in the North Italy 6 sample. See Figure 4.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw3492

So is there a paper that you can provide that shows modern Greeks with 30% Steppe admixture. I would suggest that "they", whoever "they" are cite it. I haven't seen such a paper and I tend to focus and spend most of my time on modern and ancient 1) Italian DNA and 2) modern and ancient Greek DNA. Those are the 2 lanes I tend to stay in so to speak.

Again, thanks for your work on the G25 coordinates.
Click to expand...

Here's my Steppe Admixture (Peloponnesian Greek w/quarter Arvanite), a modern Deep Maniot, Logkas 2 MBA sample (which I tend to cluster with) and a Deep Maniot:



Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.5916% / 0.02591560
57.6TUR_Barcin_N
33.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.8Levant_PPNB
2.6GEO_CHG



Target: Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1
Distance: 2.8590% / 0.02859041
32.6Levant_PPNB
30.4TUR_Barcin_N
20.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.0GEO_CHG
7.0Levant_Megiddo_MLBA



Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.1093% / 0.02109282
60.0TUR_Barcin_N
30.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0Levant_PPNB
2.8Baltic_LVA_HG
2.2GEO_CHG



Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.7919% / 0.02791949
64.4TUR_Barcin_N
33.8Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8Araxes_ARM_Kaps

You also have to consider that Greeks have less than 3% EHG or WHG. Northern Italians have upwards of 5-10 % I would guess and that's what plots them North of mainland Greeks.
 
matadworf said:
Here's my Steppe Admixture (Peloponnesian Greek w/quarter Arvanite), a modern Deep Maniot, Logkas 2 MBA sample (which I tend to cluster with) and a Deep Maniot:



Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.5916% / 0.02591560
57.6TUR_Barcin_N
33.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.8Levant_PPNB
2.6GEO_CHG



Target: Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1
Distance: 2.8590% / 0.02859041
32.6Levant_PPNB
30.4TUR_Barcin_N
20.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.0GEO_CHG
7.0Levant_Megiddo_MLBA



Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.1093% / 0.02109282
60.0TUR_Barcin_N
30.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0Levant_PPNB
2.8Baltic_LVA_HG
2.2GEO_CHG



Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.7919% / 0.02791949
64.4TUR_Barcin_N
33.8Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8Araxes_ARM_Kaps

You also have to consider that Greeks have less than 3% EHG or WHG. Northern Italians have upwards of 5-10 % I would guess and that's what plots them North of mainland Greeks.
Click to expand...

Ok, that could explain the plot on the PCA for Northern Italian vs. Greeks. Fair enough. Is there a good paper on modern Greeks that has admixture models. If not, I need to go back through some of those older papers that first came up with WHG+EEF+Steppe+CHG as source populations for modern Europeans and see if modern Greeks were included. Off the top of my head, I don't remember.
 
Here's a Veneto sample with about the same IE but with additional WHG:

Target: Italian_Veneto:ALP040
Distance: 3.5072% / 0.03507225
62.4TUR_Barcin_N
30.0Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.6WHG

Tuscan:

Target: Italian_Tuscany:NA20502
Distance: 2.7431% / 0.02743140
50.8TUR_Barcin_N
28.4Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.8Levant_PPNB
6.0GEO_CHG
5.0WHG
 
Metadworf: Yes, those Northern Italian samples are in line with the Raveane et al 2019 paper I linked earlier which put NItaly6 at about 28%. So as I said 25-30% is reasonable estimate for Northern Italy using amateur calculators in my view. Haak et al 2015 "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" has a nice clean admixture model (chart) which has modern Greeks (which I assume is a random sample from all regions of modern Greece). Figure 3 is presented and my eyeball summary suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greeks which would put it in line with modern Central Italy (all regions) which is about 20-25%. Tuscany being the higher end of Central Italy with about 25% based on my eyeball test. So Greeks and Albanians plotting slightly SE of Central Italy would be consistent with the results presented in Haak et al 2015. Now, this is a 2015 paper, but a very respected paper, and it would be good to have some other studies with admixture charts to review along with this paper.

0cjdWdn.jpg


So a couple of thoughts, the models you ran that show 30% for those Greek samples, where are they from? One thing I think could be interesting is for you to take those G25 modern Greek samples and run an admixture model with WHG, EEF, Steppe, and other components from the Near East that like Iran and Levant Neolithic and try to model all those modern Greek samples to get an overall average. BTW, are those samples self submitted from various genetics blog site members (e.g., a Eupedia member who is from Greece, someone that use to be on Anthrogenica, etc) or are they from academic papers and one would hope that they are randomly drawn from the regions of Greece, etc.
 
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