J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[mount123]

I agree with this. It's also possible Albanian is combination of both ? Weren't like most of the J2b2-L283 found from Late Bronze Age and Iron Age ? What do you think about Vucedol ?



Baden culture came from Corded Ware ?

I honestly don't get you two individuals. Earliest sample is dated at (starting from) 2500 BCE and Cetina is a EBA culture. Reading comprehension.

 

[enter_tain]

I agree with this. It's also possible Albanian is combination of both ? Weren't like most of the J2b2-L283 found from Late Bronze Age and Iron Age ? What do you think about Vucedol ?



Baden culture came from Corded Ware ?

Baden is very interesting because clearly they overlap with Corded Ware, but are clearly G/I2 Neolithic people.

Illyrians/Albanians/Messapics clearly descend from this region though.

 

[mount123]

Sorry entertain but these guys were Proto-Illyrians and Illyrians not Albanians.

 

[1337_]

I honestly don't get you two individuals. Earliest samples is dated at (starting from) 2500 BCE and Cetina is a EBA culture. Reading comprehension.

Yeah you are right , i didn't see the times .

 

[enter_tain]

Sorry entertain but these guys were Proto-Illyrians and Illyrians not Albanians.

Sorry lame troll, but Messapics are J2B2-L283 carriers and their language is related to Albanian.

The issue is most linguists have no idea about Y-DNA/archeology to put two and two together.

 

[mount123]

delete‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎

 

[enter_tain]

I honestly don't get you two individuals. Earliest sample is dated at (starting from) 2500 BCE and Cetina is a EBA culture. Reading comprehension.

Cetina: 2200 BC to 1600 BC (in the paper 2000 BC to 1600 BC). Try harder.

 

[enter_tain]

Thanks entertain, that is actually the nicest thing you have said to me. You went from "Kosovar retard","idiot", "mentally disabled", moron etc. to lame troll.

What a compliment. Much appreciated. Have a nice day

Never said "Kosovar retard". I have respect for Kosovars who don't have identity complexes and try to make up fake migrations/populations.

 

[enter_tain]

And btw, people are coming around to the whole Illyro-Messapic-Albanian thing. Hamp has been going on about this since the 80s. I just wish they didn't quote that troll Matzinger. It's not like Matzinger came up with it. That theory existed before him.

That's some nice Hoxha-style Albanian communist propaganda according to mount123. Enver Hoxha infiltrated all Illyrian-related studies in the west

 

[broder]

No, no, it does relate to it. Hybrid people = Hybrid Language. The Albanian language isn't a hybrid language. It has a certain of derivation rules that tie it back to PIE.

Not necessarily. You don’t think the R1a/I2a had any influence linguistically, especially down south? I hope you are aware that Tosk was even structurally altered by Slavic. Still that doesn’t mean that Albanian is a hybrid language because of the initial hypothetical Thracian (if that’s what we are assuming), Latin, Slavic influence etc.

 

[Southpaw]

I don't believe that Ulanci/Paeonians are descended from Brnjica, Brnjica exclusively cremated their death, unlike Paeonians/Ulanci who used tumuli inhumation burial. That would be weird, when the single basic material culture indicator differs and the timeline is close enough. Brnjica had an influence from Vatin, Gava was closely related to Vatin. I do believe we are looking for E-V13 in Southern Pannonia.

Very likely the Dardanians were a mixture of E-V13, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103, and in order to confirm this we need samples from Early Christian period because Dardanians used cremation and inhumation on their western part where Glasinac-Mat had stronger influence. We see interesting things going on, sometimes Illyrian names appear, but sometimes in the case of Bardylis tribe Peresadyes and his descendand Monunius, these two names appear only among Odrysian Thracians. Something going on there for sure.

Serbian archaeologists grave classification from Timacum samples 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13-Z5017 indicate that they were either Dardanians or Dalmatians.

Another Naissus sample is E-V13, he was either Dardanian or Triballian.

 

[1337_]

Krici can still be Albanian or even Vlach, just because they tested J2b1 doesn't rule out an Albanian origin, Vlachs historically lived close to many Albanians in Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia, Western Kosovo etc .

Macure tested I1 and are said to of been Albanian too, they even match Albanians. In fact many tribes in Montenegro used to be Albanian or Vlach like Mataruge, Spanje, Kuqi, Bukumiri etc.

Many also were Slavs obviously.

 

[1337_]

The data that just came out that showed Greeks/Albanians/Serbs/Romanians with 0 EV13 during Medieval times or otherwise is non-scientific? Go to Rrenjet and have them explain to you how most Kosovars with high EV-13 are just expansions of northern Albanians in recent times.

.

There is no evidence of any significant migration from Northern Albania into Kosovo between 15th century to around 17th/18th century though, Mainly sped up in 18th century

Serbian historians explain the growth of an Albanian population in Kosovo during the early Ottoman period in terms of physical immigration: it is suggested that Albanians from the Malesi were encouraged by the Ottomans to settle in Kosovo, that many of these turned to Islam to gain the advantages of superior status, and that those Slavs who became Muslims were not merely Islamicized but, sooner or later, Albanianized as well. The Ottoman officials usually noted which heads of family were 'new arrivals’ in their places of residence; out of 121 new arrivals in the nahiye of Pec in 1485, the majority had Slav names. In the sancak of Prizren in 1591, only five new arrivals out of forty-one bore Albanian names; and in a group of Kosovo towns in the 1580s and 1590s there were twenty-five new Albanian immigrants and 133 with Slav names - several of them described as coming from Bosnia. This evidence counts strongly against the idea of a mass immigration from northern Albania. Other more general arguments against that idea are based on relative population sizes and rates of growth. The population of Kosovo during this period was much bigger than that of northern and central Albania, and its rate of growth was actually lower. This is not what one would expect if a large overflow from the Albanian Malesi were flooding into Kosovo.

Some of the Catholic documents also note cases of Albanians moving into Kosovo from northern Albania. Pjeter Mazrreku reported from Prishtina in 1624: 'not long ago ten Catholic families came from Albania to live in this area’; in Suha Reka in 1637 Gjergj Bardhi found fifteen Catholic families who had fled there from the Dukagjin mountains because of 'assassins'; and Gregor Mazrreku found several Albanians at a nearby village in 1651, who had also ‘fled from the mountains’. Gregor Mazrreku noted that most of these had become Muslims since their arrival. It seems likely that people fled from the Malesi either because of blood-feuds or because they had been punished under the Kanun of Lek Dukagjin (which, it will be recalled, said that people guilty of serious crimes should have their houses burnt down and be expelled). Such people, arriving ina new area, would naturally feel more unattached to the local Catholic community, and would be more easily tempted to make the switch to Islam. Larger groups emigrating together were much more rare; but in these cases there was more religious cohesion. A group of thirty-five Catholic Albanian families from Albania was noted at the mining town of Kratovo, east of Skopje, in 1637; they were already learning the Slav language, and it is likely that they were eventually assimilated by the local Slav-speaking Catholic community. Overall, however, one conclusion is certain: the number of people migrating into the Kosovo area from northern Albania during this period was, relative to the already existing Albanian population of Kosovo, extremely small. The Malesi was almost entirely Catholic; the reports by the Catholic priests in Kosovo are thorough and very detailed; and it is not possible to imagine that many thousands of Catholic immigrants could have escaped their notice - even (or, perhaps, especially) if they did not remain Catholic for long.

- Kosovo: A SHort history

There were some in the late 1500's and 1600's, based on this I have counted around 50 families maybe that came there in a span of several hundreds of years during these periods.

 

[hrvat22]

Go to Rrenjet and have them explain to you how most Kosovars with high EV-13 are just expansions of northern Albanians in recent times.

Your brain still can't wrap its head around the concept of founder effects. All Y-DNAs experience founder effect, including J2B2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 or L51. You just want EV13 to have a Pan-Balkan founder effect in Antiquity when this is not the case.

This is how Y-DNA works. EV13 was just a later bloom.

In Kosovo E1b is up to 47%. It could mean that this haplotype is probably autochthonous in this area. That there was migration from Albania towards Kosovo E1b couldn't be 47% considering that the same in Albania is 27%. There is no detector for Ydna at the border which lets only people with E1b. If migration starts from Albania, then all haplotypes which are part of Albania coming.

Normally this must be confirmed by archaeogenetics or living genetics which would show migration of E1b from somewhere to Kosovo. If this data exists, let it be presented.

It is the same case with I2a Croats in Bosnia and 70% of I2a. If the Vlachs coming to that area(where Croats live), it is unlikely that they bring only I2a from their homelands. This probably refers to the isolation of Catholic Croats during the Turkish era. No one then converts to Catholicism and Catholics do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims. Time will tell if I was right or not.

 

[Oroku Saki]

In Kosovo E1b is up to 47%. It could mean that this haplotype is probably autochthonous in this area. That there was migration from Albania towards Kosovo E1b couldn't be 47% considering that the same in Albania is 27%. There is no detector for Ydna at the border which lets only people with E1b. If migration starts from Albania, then all haplotypes which are part of Albania coming.

Normally this must be confirmed by archaeogenetics or living genetics which would show migration of E1b from somewhere to Kosovo. If this data exists, let it be presented.

Halooo ba jel ti ćitaš. Jesam ti napiso da je 1/4 E1b tamo 1 klaster. So the Berisha-Sopi exploded, and where are the others that have also exploded demographically.

It is the same case with I2a Croats in Bosnia and 70% of I2a. If the Vlachs coming to that area(where Croats live), it is unlikely that they bring only I2a from their homelands. This probably refers to the isolation of Catholic Croats during the Turkish era. No one then converts to Catholicism and Catholics do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims. Time will tell if I was right or not.

Most of those east Herzegovina Vlachs were also I2a. Also most Croats from Herzegovina are descended of Western Herzegovina Vlachs, so they too were I2a heavy. Btw great many Bosnian Croats also came from Herzegovina. Vlach at that time was just a social status. In 13th-14th centuries alot of I2a locals joined Vlachs who used to carry much more of non-Slavic lineages.

 

[1337_]

In Kosovo E1b is up to 47%. It could mean that this haplotype is probably autochthonous in this area. That there was migration from Albania towards Kosovo E1b couldn't be 47% considering that the same in Albania is 27%. There is no detector for Ydna at the border which lets only people with E1b. If migration starts from Albania, then all haplotypes which are part of Albania coming.

Normally this must be confirmed by archaeogenetics or living genetics which would show migration of E1b from somewhere to Kosovo. If this data exists, let it be presented.

It is the same case with I2a Croats in Bosnia and 70% of I2a. If the Vlachs coming to that area(where Croats live), it is unlikely that they bring only I2a from their homelands. This probably refers to the isolation of Catholic Croats during the Turkish era. No one then converts to Catholicism and Catholics do not mix with Orthodox and Muslims. Time will tell if I was right or not.

I am more interested in the native Albanians that used to live in Kosovo (or still live) . I wonder if one could test some families who have no tribal affiliations or who do not trace their origin to anywhere else. But it's hard considering many families did not live in the same area for more than 200 years in the later Ottoman period especially. But there should be plenty of native families in Western Kosovo. But most of these Albanian DNA projects are tribal driven. They supposedly claim we all originated from the Malsi. I personally do not believe this to be true.

 

[1337_]

Halooo ba jel ti ćitaš. Jesam ti napiso da je 1/4 E1b tamo 1 klaster. So the Berisha-Sopi exploded, and where are the others that have also exploded demographically.



Most of those east Herzegovina Vlachs were also I2a. Also most Croats from Herzegovina are descended of Western Herzegovina Vlachs, so they too were I2a heavy. Btw great many Bosnian Croats also came from Herzegovina. Vlach at that time was just a social status. In 13th-14th centuries alot of I2a locals joined Vlachs who used to carry much more of non-Slavic lineages.

Berisha is an Albanian tribe that was recorded before the Ottoman period and recorded in Kosovo before the Ottoman period according to some. It's the oldest recorded Albanian tribe.

Many of these DNA projects mostly target people who belong to tribes.

 

[enter_tain]

Not necessarily. You don’t think the R1a/I2a had any influence linguistically, especially down south? I hope you are aware that Tosk was even structurally altered by Slavic. Still that doesn’t mean that Albanian is a hybrid language because of the initial hypothetical Thracian (if that’s what we are assuming), Latin, Slavic influence etc.

Mate, do you realize we can pinpoint the Geg/Tosk split date because of the Slavic loanwords? We know Geg/Tosk split after Romans/Greek but before Slavs since Slavic loanwords are not affected.

We can spot foreign words very quickly in a language. The native Albanian loanword have certain laws that they abide by. These laws trace it back to the original PIE. This is not consistent with "hybrid" languages. Hybrid =/= borrowing words. Every language has some loanwords.

This just goes to show how little some people know about linguists. They make claims that have nothing to do with reality.

 

[hrvat22]

Most of those east Herzegovina Vlachs were also I2a. Also most Croats from Herzegovina are descended of Western Herzegovina Vlachs, so they too were I2a heavy. Btw great many Bosnian Croats also came from Herzegovina. Vlach at that time was just a social status. In 13th-14th centuries alot of I2a locals joined Vlachs who used to carry much more of non-Slavic lineages.

Again an answer without any relevant evidence.

Halooo ba jel ti ćitaš. Jesam ti napiso da je 1/4 E1b tamo 1 klaster. So the Berisha-Sopi exploded, and where are the others that have also exploded demographically.

As if you said nothing.

 

[enter_tain]

That there was migration from Albania towards Kosovo E1b couldn't be 47% considering that the same in Albania is 27%.

Bro... Read what the **** a founder effect is. Are you serious right now?