J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[1337_]

Results would be maybe different if we start targeting people with no tribal affiliations or families who do not trace their origin anywhere else , just the general population, I would suggest especially the 'Rrafshi i Dukagjinit' / Western Kosovo like Opoja, Prizren, Gjakova, Has, Peja region etc.

 

[1337_]

Bro... Read what the **** a founder effect is. Are you serious right now?

We do know what a founder effect is but there is nothing that suggests Albanian demographic growth in Western Kosovo happened as a result of immigration from Albania during the Ottoman period. Show me evidence that proves otherwise. Show me evidence in the early Ottoman period that speak of a large immigration from there.

EV-13 is 47% in Kosovo according to peer reviewed studies not to Albanian DNA projects .

 

[1337_]

Let's not forget many families moved in from Northern Albania during 17th-18th century, when the region had already gained a large Albanian population, and like 60k-100k people were expelled from Nish, Leskovac etc in the 19th century who then settled Kosovo.

 

[mount123]

[FONT=&quot]delete‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎[/FONT]

 

[1337_]

This is from Dumbrowski on Opoja in Kosovo:

Aromanian toponyms give some indication of the pre-Slavic linguistic situation in these regions

This account is also supported by Lutovac’s (1956: 273) findings that “ of 72lineages and 1032 households, 37 lineages and 578 houses are ‘immigrants’(doseljenici) and 36 lineages and 455 households are of unknown background. ”Of the immigrant lineages, 14 claim decent from the nearby Albanian borderregions of Hasi / Podrimlje and Luma, while 18 claim descent from elsewherein Albania. Notably, the lineages of ‘unknown’ background interviewed in Lutovac (1956) were not aware of belonging to a fis , the Albanian concept ofclan organization known in northern Albania and Kosovo

They claim the Albanian demographic growth occurred from immigration in the early 16th century yet provide no evidence except for some theory, claim all Albanians who are old inhabitants and not belonging to a fis as Albanized Serbs :lol:

They quote Pulaha who noted the are was Albanian in 1591 to confirm this ''immigration'' yet if we look at the Vilajet of Pashtrik in 1452, there was already an Albanian population there back then together with Vlachs.

 

[1337_]

They claim all Muslim converts in Kosovo in early Ottoman period, who were natives converting to Islam, were of unknown origin, yet many actually had Albanian names, while some did have just general Muslim names. Their theory is basically that Slavs became Muslims and later Albanized by an Albanian immigration lol ... I wonder what they say about Vlachs ? There are some references to Islamized Vlachs. Tax registers from 1480's showed large group of Vlachs much larger than defter of Brankovic 1455 which apparently only recorded Timars or something and did not even include Western Kosovo.

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

This reasoning of yours would be completely rejected by archaeologists and anthropologists.

The fact that I'm saying J-L283 didn't originate in Illyria and migrated from another location would be rejected by archaeologists and anthropologists? perhaps there's some sort of language barrier here because I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread agrees that J-L283 likely didn't originate in Illyria???

Am I being a noob here guys or what is going on? Trojet, Mount, Entertain, 1337 help me out here because I'm confused on his responses.

 

[broder]

Mate, do you realize we can pinpoint the Geg/Tosk split date because of the Slavic loanwords? We know Geg/Tosk split after Romans/Greek but before Slavs since Slavic loanwords are not affected.

We can spot foreign words very quickly in a language. The native Albanian loanword have certain laws that they abide by. These laws trace it back to the original PIE. This is not consistent with "hybrid" languages. Hybrid =/= borrowing words. Every language has some loanwords.

This just goes to show how little some people know about linguists. They make claims that have nothing to do with reality.

Exactly my point, even though Albanian was heavy influenced by Latin and Slavic (more so Tosk with Slavic structurally speaking) is still not considered a hybrid language. In all honesty I am not even sure if such a term can be used in linguistics terms. Considering all living languages evolve constantly.

 

[Polska]

The fact that I'm saying J-L283 didn't originate in Illyria and migrated from another location would be rejected by archaeologists and anthropologists? perhaps there's some sort of language barrier here because I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread agrees that J-L283 likely didn't originate in Illyria???

Am I being a noob here guys or what is going on? Trojet, Mount, Entertain, 1337 help me out here because I'm confused on his responses.

It’s possible there is a misunderstanding. My interpretation is that, like myself, you’re very interested in now establishing the deeper origins of haplogroup J2b L283 beyond the Balkans and before the Illyrian people or Proto Illyrian people formed.

This last data dump from the Southern Arc paper was a monster for J2b L283. And there’s another monster right around the corner with this Serbia paper…supposedly 50+ ancient L283 samples. Now that we have a clear association with J2b L283 and this Cetina Culture (This was Trojet and user Kelmendasi’s theory for some time now) we can work backwards to this Ljubljana Culture as some of these burials in the W. Balkans have ties to the Ljubljana Culture. This Ljubljana Culture was a sort of fusion between the Bell Beakers and the Vucedol Culture, which was centered there in Vukovar, Croatia. There has never been an ancient J2b L283 ever discovered anywhere in Neolithic Europe, nor has an ancient L283 ever been discovered south of the Caucasus, with the exception of the Lchashen Metsamor sample from Armenia. So this leaves the Ukrainian steppe as a possible homeland for this lineage, in my opinion.

 

[1337_]

Mate, do you realize we can pinpoint the Geg/Tosk split date because of the Slavic loanwords? We know Geg/Tosk split after Romans/Greek but before Slavs since Slavic loanwords are not affected.

We can spot foreign words very quickly in a language. The native Albanian loanword have certain laws that they abide by. These laws trace it back to the original PIE. This is not consistent with "hybrid" languages. Hybrid =/= borrowing words. Every language has some loanwords.

This just goes to show how little some people know about linguists. They make claims that have nothing to do with reality.

...

Mallory & Adams 1997, p. 9: "The Greek and Latin loans have undergone most of the far-reaching phonological changes which have so altered the shape of inherited words while Slavic and Turkish words do not show those changes. Thus Albanian must have acquired much of its present form by the time Slavs entered into Balkans in the fifth and sixth centuries AD"

Hamp 1963, p. 98: The isogloss is clear in all dialects I have studied, which embrace nearly all types possible. It must be relatively old, that is, dating back into the post-Roman first millennium. As a guess, it seems possible that this isogloss reflects a spread of the speech area, after the settlement of the Albanians in roughly their present location, so that the speech area straddled the Jireček Line.

Dialect split shows when Tosk split from Gheg I think and went south of the Shkumbin river.

During this period the valley of Skumbin constituted roughly the border between the Latin and the Greek speaking area.^[17]

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

It’s possible there is a misunderstanding. My interpretation is that, like myself, you’re very interested in now establishing the deeper origins of haplogroup J2b L283 beyond the Balkans and before the Illyrian people or Proto Illyrian people formed.

This last data dump from the Southern Arc paper was a monster for J2b L283. And there’s another monster right around the corner with this Serbia paper…supposedly 50+ ancient L283 samples. Now that we have a clear association with J2b L283 and this Cetina Culture (This was Trojet and user Kelmendasi’s theory for some time now) we can work backwards to this Ljubljana Culture as some of these burials in the W. Balkans have ties to the Ljubljana Culture. This Ljubljana Culture was a sort of fusion between the Bell Beakers and the Vucedol Culture, which was centered there in Vukovar, Croatia. There has never been an ancient J2b L283 ever discovered anywhere in Neolithic Europe, nor has an ancient L283 ever been discovered south of the Caucasus, with the exception of the Lchashen Metsamor sample from Armenia. So this leaves the Ukrainian steppe as a possible homeland for this lineage, in my opinion.

Yes exactly my friend, I agree with everything you've said.

 

[1337_]

Gheg-Tosk split happened before Slavs there is no question about this obviously. The result of what survived of a proto-Albanian language ?

According to sources , main settlement of the Albanoi was between Shkumbin and Mat. I think one source attested them also in Lezha etc.

 

[enter_tain]

Gheg-Tosk split happened before Slavs there is no question about this obviously. The result of what survived of a proto-Albanian language ?

According to sources , main settlement of the Albanoi was between Shkumbin and Mat. I think one source attested them also in Lezha etc.

I think even my clade eventually traces to Catholic Albania (based on predictions), and I'm from the south. Aurel Plasari did a great book on the Albanoi/Arbni and all their mentions, and his opinion is that the Arben influenced all Albanian lands culturally, not genetically. But I really think those northern Albanians kept pumping out kids who went to South Albania too, not just Kosova.

If we did a deep clade analysis, I guarantee a lot of southern Albanians, if not most, will trace their lineage back to northern Albania in antiquity, in that Mat region. I truly wonder what dialect of Illyrian/Albanoid us southerners spoke. Maybe a Taulantian language, different than the Albanoi. Given names like "Dimale" and "Taulant/Dallandyshe" it was clearly spoken in these regions as well.

 

[enter_tain]

I don't believe that Ulanci/Paeonians are descended from Brnjica, Brnjica exclusively cremated their death, unlike Paeonians/Ulanci who used tumuli inhumation burial. That would be weird, when the single basic material culture indicator differs and the timeline is close enough. Brnjica had an influence from Vatin, Gava was closely related to Vatin. I do believe we are looking for E-V13 in Southern Pannonia.

Very likely the Dardanians were a mixture of E-V13, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103, and in order to confirm this we need samples from Early Christian period because Dardanians used cremation and inhumation on their western part where Glasinac-Mat had stronger influence. We see interesting things going on, sometimes Illyrian names appear, but sometimes in the case of Bardylis tribe Peresadyes and his descendand Monunius, these two names appear only among Odrysian Thracians. Something going on there for sure.

Serbian archaeologists grave classification from Timacum samples 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13-Z5017 indicate that they were either Dardanians or Dalmatians.

Another Naissus sample is E-V13, he was either Dardanian or Triballian.

Mate, there are no "Dardanians" in antiquity. Dardanians are an Iron Age people. You're talking about Late Antiquity. That's a territory, not a people.

And stop pretending like even the original Dardanians are a separate ethos. All ancient authors refer to them as Illyrians. In fact, Strabo mentions them as one of the 3 strongest Illyrian tribes.

 

[enter_tain]

We do know what a founder effect is but there is nothing that suggests Albanian demographic growth in Western Kosovo happened as a result of immigration from Albania during the Ottoman period. Show me evidence that proves otherwise. Show me evidence in the early Ottoman period that speak of a large immigration from there.

EV-13 is 47% in Kosovo according to peer reviewed studies not to Albanian DNA projects .

From Gjergj Bojaxhi @ Rrenjet. "75% of all Kosovar lines trace back to northern Albania last 3-400 years." (He mentions Fushe-Kosove)

https://youtu.be/ng5DUbAZtPY?t=1628

People worry too much about % frequencies in modern populations, when it's really irrelevant. Small populations can drastically vary. The main issue is WHAT lineages are there, not HOW MUCH.

 

[hrvat22]

Bro... Read what the **** a founder effect is. Are you serious right now?

I say earlier as if you didn't say anything. You have to prove everything you claim with genetic data that proves it. You have scientific papers or YFull and present them as evidence. Then I will answer you.

 

[mount123]

delete‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎

 

[1337_]

entertain, Illyria, 1337_ you constantly insult others and post baseless theories. Your behavior is annoying and has nothing to do with the thread's topic. Besides that, others and I don't want to open this thread and be greeted by a bunch of sites about supposedly medieval Albanian history, pseudoscientific theories about other haplogroups etc.

J2b-L283 is not restricted to Albanians and other Balkanites, on this thread we have guys from all over Europe and America and no one here cares about your little obsessions dear entertain. Your way of addressing people, calling them names, making racist remarks etc. has been the most disrespectful thing I have encountered in this forum. Yet you are still here.

Where on earth have I insulted others ? What on earth are you even talking about ?

The only one who is annoying here is you. You act like you're some kind of internet police. Did you graduate at the internet police academy ?

''Baseless theories'' , ''pseudoscientific theories'' , you have been repeating these words over and over again for anything that doesn't seem to suit your agenda ? Care to show us what baseless theories or pseudoscientific theories you are referring here to ?

 

[mount123]

Yes exactly my friend, I agree with everything you've said.

When you have questions in this regard it is always the best to address Trojet since he is the most knowledgable on the phylogeny of J2b-L283. Polska is also one of the reasonable guys here, and I see he responded to you. If you have questions and want to address them beyond this forum, Hunter is the right one for that.

I have sent you my response from this forum via pm too as I think in the midst of all these spam posts it is easier to communicate that way.

 

[1337_]

No offence, mount123 , if anything you're the most annoying member here.