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To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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PaleoRevenge said:
Auditorium, curriculum, bacterium, Sodom and Gomorrium. With the impending samples it will be set in stone, E-V13 expands out of western Romania, the womb of E-V13 in IE context. Will brumi the pride of malsorioum get a haplogroup change surgery? Society has made so much progress and amazing strides, can a cuck unhappy with his E-V13 haplogroup get transhaplo surgery to J2b? I think the brave malsorries of rrenjet can break a new ceiling in the frontiers of progress and lgbt rights.

And how can you call yourself rrenjet when you have a major problem with the main roots of Albanians?
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What is the problem with the main roots of Albanians?
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Rrenjets representative in these foras engages in open defamation against E-V13. That's the issue, not that Illyrians lost. Illyrians had a sea empire since the Bronze Age, they had good control, big chunks of Italy, even a presence in Mycenea. Where is Albanian influence in Italic languages, where is the memory of maritime trade and expansion, did we forget how to say fish/peshk?

They are begging to be put down like rabid dogs. Trashing one own ancestors for the sake a mythical one, they deserve no respect.
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What presence in mycenea? You don't understand how languages work, by your logic where is French influence in Turkey?
 
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Posted in another forum, abstract on Sarmatian sites

PlZCZ3G.jpeg


Sarmatians in Romania: 1 E-V13, 9% frequency
Sarmatians in Hungary: 6 E-V13. 12% frequency

The Celt and Scythian data seem to be recycled samples from older studies. So only 7 new E-V13 samples from a much debated region. The ring is slowly closing.
Pay attention to the ratios when Sarmatian haplogroups are excluded, E-V13 has almost the same share as R1b in Hungary. ;)
Let's add one more angle, compare R1b to E-V13 ratio in Celtic Hungary(La Tene Hungarian samples) vs Sarmatian Hungary. How can it be so wildly different? What could possibly pump the E-V13 ratios up?;)

BTW Is the guy who posted this the same Hungarian that once posted in the E-V13 thread?
 
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PaleoRevenge said:
Posted in another forum, abstract on Sarmatian sites

Sarmatians in Romania: 1 E-V13, 9% frequency
Sarmatians in Hungary: 6 E-V13. 12% frequency

The Celt and Scythian data seem to be recycled samples from older studies. So only 7 new E-V13 samples from a much debated region. The ring is slowly closing.
Pay attention to the ratios when Sarmatian haplogroups are excluded, E-V13 has almost the same share as R1b in Hungary. ;)
Let's add one more angle, compare R1b to E-V13 ratio in Celtic Hungary(La Tene Hungarian samples) vs Sarmatian Hungary. How can it be so wildly different? What could possibly pump the E-V13 ratios up?;)

BTW Is the guy who posted this the same Hungarian that once posted in the E-V13 thread?
Click to expand...

Can you give a TLDR of the conclusions, I am a bit behind.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Posted in another forum, abstract on Sarmatian sites

PlZCZ3G.jpeg


Sarmatians in Romania: 1 E-V13, 9% frequency
Sarmatians in Hungary: 6 E-V13. 12% frequency

The Celt and Scythian data seem to be recycled samples from older studies. So only 7 new E-V13 samples from a much debated region. The ring is slowly closing.
Pay attention to the ratios when Sarmatian haplogroups are excluded, E-V13 has almost the same share as R1b in Hungary. ;)
Let's add one more angle, compare R1b to E-V13 ratio in Celtic Hungary(La Tene Hungarian samples) vs Sarmatian Hungary. How can it be so wildly different? What could possibly pump the E-V13 ratios up?;)

BTW Is the guy who posted this the same Hungarian that once posted in the E-V13 thread?
Click to expand...
Basically, the same level of EV-13 is still present in Hungary, so nothing new in the discussion. 9-12%, 17 centuries ago, and 10% now.
 
Subclades and autosomal profiles will be interesting for the non-Scytho-Sarmatians.
 
epirus1000 said:
Basically, the same level of EV-13 is still present in Hungary, so nothing new in the discussion. 9-12%, 17 centuries ago, and 10% now.
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The idea of a late Roman spread of E-V13 is now dead. Like I always said, the local Carpathian lineages ate primarily R-L2 from the Tumulus culture and La Tene Celts plus E-V13 from the Channelled Ware-Stamped Ware Daco-Thracians.

Such a high portion in the non-steppe lineages, despite the vast majority of Dacians cremating their dead and being not from the Scytho-Sarmatian context is absolutely astonishing and further evidence for the deep rooted presence in the Carpathian basin, even between Celts and Sarmatians.

Dacians were largely in settlements and cemeteries of their own.
 
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epirus1000 said:
Basically, the same level of EV-13 is still present in Hungary, so nothing new in the discussion. 9-12%, 17 centuries ago, and 10% now.
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Incorrect understanding of the charts. Modern Hungarians do not carry 50-60% Sarmatian R1a clades. You have to remove the Sarmatian core, to get the layout of the integrated non-Sarmatians, who represent the local population.
Who would these be? Celts, Germans and Dacians. E-V13 has a 20-25% ratio in both locations, pretty good considering the majority of his kind would have cremated, even as a second class Sarmatian. If we remove Germanics who are also late comers in the scene, the ratios get even more interesting. The implications are obvious.

Gjergj in rrenjet wrote, E-V13 arose in Pannonia(which he meant Illyrian region of Pannonia), well we have Roman samples from Roman Pannonia, there is only one E-V13 so far. Slightly higher ratio in Celtic Hungary(La Tene period), much higher ratio in eastern(Sarmatian) Hungary. The pattern does not stop there, Viminacium is also chock full of E-V13 while Roman Pannonia as mentioned earlier is almost barren. There is a pattern here, east lots of E-V13, west minimal. And these sites are only at the edges of the Daco-Thracian world. We still don't have Roman era samples from the Dacian or Moesian heartlands.

Also there is only one J2b in Sarmatian Hungary, none in Romania. J2b and E-V13 have no association with each other during these periods, they clearly represent opposite Balkan spheres of influence.
 
eupator said:
Can you give a TLDR of the conclusions, I am a bit behind.
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The abstract is it. If you want haplogroup ratios, you have to zoom on the charts.

The person that posted it is likely the Hungarian graduate that posted in E-V13 thread in Eupedia and works in archegenomic field. This abstract comes off as insider abstract meant only for colleagues.
 
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The abstract discloses that 17 samples are from previous published study, which contained one E-V13 during late Sarmatian period.
eaDQLON.png



The late Sarmatian period also has only one steppe haplogroup and the Germanic haplogroups seem to be restricted to the table above.
That leaves 41 Y-haplogroups for other periods(new samples). 22 are guaranteed to be steppe, leaving at least 19 local, could be 1 or 2 less. That means at least 5/19 = 26% E-V13 from the local pre-Sarmatian layer.

In this chart, E-V13 is from a earlier period than the other Sarmatian samples, 3rd century vs 4th-5th, once Germanics moved in, E-V13 lost representation. If dividing data by period E-V13 will likely be closer to 30-33% of non-steppe haplogroups for the 3rd century. I think most E-V13 would pop up a century after Roman acquisition of Dacia. The early Sarmatians by their autosomal profiles would be almost entirely steppe haplogroups, a century later locals are integrated among their ranks.
 
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The Sarmatian lineages had no great survival and rate nad growth afterwards. The Dacians survived in the region at least 5 major steppe invasions, I'm pretty sure they were concentrated in highlands and valleys, like in the many centuries before. Those were only fully taken by the Slavs. The local Slavs were closest related to the Ruthenians and secondarily Slovaks, which should have soaked up most of what remained.
All these samples leave a huge fraction of the population completely out, all those local groups which cremated their dead.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Posted in another forum, abstract on Sarmatian sites

PlZCZ3G.jpeg


Sarmatians in Romania: 1 E-V13, 9% frequency
Sarmatians in Hungary: 6 E-V13. 12% frequency

The Celt and Scythian data seem to be recycled samples from older studies. So only 7 new E-V13 samples from a much debated region. The ring is slowly closing.
Pay attention to the ratios when Sarmatian haplogroups are excluded, E-V13 has almost the same share as R1b in Hungary. ;)
Let's add one more angle, compare R1b to E-V13 ratio in Celtic Hungary(La Tene Hungarian samples) vs Sarmatian Hungary. How can it be so wildly different? What could possibly pump the E-V13 ratios up?;)

BTW Is the guy who posted this the same Hungarian that once posted in the E-V13 thread?
Click to expand...
Which forum is this from?
 
J Man said:
Thanks!...I must have overlooked that on there earlier.

Have you heard anything else about possible upcoming ancient J2a results from Southeast Europe since we last talked about that?
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Have made no attempts, there is a new J2a with Romania Sarmatians.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
That's the issue, not that Illyrians lost. Illyrians had a sea empire since the Bronze Age, they had good control, big chunks of Italy, even a presence in Mycenea. Where is Albanian influence in Italic languages, where is the memory of maritime trade and expansion, did we forget how to say fish/peshk?
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Rarely seen so much absurd nonsense in just one post.
Illyrian sea empire?presence in mycenea? Oh god
Nationalistic agenda in its most hilarious form
 
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The upcoming samples, 1 from Romania and 5 from Hungary are interesting from historical background. Dacians were conquered by the Romans and Rome followed up with a hard fought campaign to bring the Sarmatians in Hungary under Roman rule and link up the Dacian province directly with Pannonia. This campaign failed but it must have brought the free Dacians in common cause with Sarmatians, and among the 5 new E-V13 samples in Hungary, all of them are likely to be of Dacian stock, and it's even possible one or two would be free of Sarmatian admixture.
 
boriss said:
Good thread,


Hope last few comments don't proceed with deflection and their own nation's historical insecurities and ruin the thread.
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It is indeed a nice thread. You'll find a good amount of valuable posts here with links to scientific papers and the normal chitchat about upcoming papers with leaks and personal bets. Here and there you will see a certain type of people posting here that clearly have absolutely no foreknowledge in neither prehistoric Balkan archeology nor population genetics. Some cheeky remarks just make it a bit more embarrassing for them.
 
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