Iosif Lazaridis: Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone

[Vallicanus]

The Iranian Plateau was not Mesopotamia.

Mesopotamia was not Indo-European but Sumerian and Semitic.

The Iranian Indo-Europeans were merely warriors who derived their higher culture from Sumerians, Assyrians, etc, none of them Indo-European.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Besides correct me if I'm wrong but the Anatolian Neolithic Farmers ancestral component is something shared by nearly all of Europe anyway so there's nothing peculiar in that either.

Anatolian Neolithic Farmer ancestral component is one of the components that gave birth to all ancient and modern Europeans.

 

[real expert]

Anatolian Neolithic Farmer ancestral component is one of the components that gave birth to all ancient and modern Europeans.

People often forget that the closest people to Anatolian Neolithic farmers are Sardinians/South Europeans, not Middle Easterners.

 

[Power]

People often forget that the closest people to Anatolian Neolithic farmers are Sardinians/South Europeans, not Middle Easterners.

"middle east" is a nonsense term since the peoples in the "middle east" have big differences among each other

us people from northern west asia we have a lot of neolithic farmer ancestry . i personally i am 36 - 40% EEF / ANF depending on model and depending on the EEF / ANF pop taken

 

[real expert]

"middle east" is a nonsense term since the peoples in the "middle east" have big differences among each other

us people from northern west asia we have a lot of neolithic farmer ancestry . i personally i am 36 - 40% EEF / ANF depending on model and depending on the EEF / ANF pop taken

My point still stands.

 

[norbert]

People often forget that the closest people to Anatolian Neolithic farmers are Sardinians/South Europeans, not Middle Easterners.

I don't think anyone considers Middle Easterners to be close to ANFs as (Southern) Europeans. ANFs were closest to the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers in the Balkans. I guess the reason why the ANFs expanded in all directions, but primarily into Europe, is their advanced agriculture which resulted in a population explosion. In Europe they may have given birth to the some of the first civilisations if it wasn't for those Indo-European barbarians who screwed it all up.

 

[Vitruvius]

Besides correct me if I'm wrong but the Anatolian Neolithic Farmers ancestral component is something shared by nearly all of Europe anyway so there's nothing peculiar in that either.

This is true of all of Italy's ancestral components other than perhaps the minuscule 1-2% taforalt ancestry which is restricted to southern Italy. And that's assuming it's even real and not just a modelling artifact.

 

[Vitruvius]

An Indo-European nation who don't like to be compared to the original Indo-Europeans with an intermed‌iate skin tone, a civilized nation who don't like to be related to the cradle of civilization!

I've no issue with ideas of IE influence in Italy. Nobody here does. It is correct to say that Roman and Latin civilization had little to nothing to do with Mesopotamian and Iranian influence, however.

 

[MOESAN]

I don't think anyone considers Middle Easterners to be close to ANFs as (Southern) Europeans. ANFs were closest to the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers in the Balkans. I guess the reason why the ANFs expanded in all directions, but primarily into Europe, is their advanced agriculture which resulted in a population explosion. In Europe they may have given birth to the some of the first civilisations if it wasn't for those Indo-European barbarians who screwed it all up.

For a time I contest your affirmation; as a whole it seems that the (partially heterogenous) ANF were closest to Neol-Levant and even to Natufians than to WHG's and Iron Gates HG's. ATW exchanges of genes had taken place among someof the ANF people groups before the diaspora into Neolithic Europe. Current Middle-easterners received CHG/Iran after, but that didn't put them so far from ANF, I think; even like that, despite the difference is smaller, you may not say ANF epople were closer toIron Gates HG's.

 

[gourd2]

Yes, and he comes from Val d'Aosta. Genetically very close to many Swiss and French. And also he could easily pass in Central Europe and doesn't pass in the Middle East like you claim.

i think if you asked the average central european where this guy is from and you give them two options, 1 central europe, 2 near east, most would probably go for near east. not that he could not pass in central eurpope but he could pass in near east easier than in central europe. there is overlap with near eastern phenotypes even in central europe, i wont deny that unlike you.


here is another north italian peasant from the same book. this time from piemonte.

this guy could maybe also pass as swiss but he can pass as somewhere from near east too. and if i didn't know better i would opt for the latter.

Someone whose activity on the forum doesn't look so much like a notorious American anti-Italian orientalist troll.

sry but that's not who i am. why orientalist? because i do see the similarities between europans and other westeurasians? lol a big chunk of our ancestry came literally from Anatolia not that long ago. you think those people had no phenotypic overlap with other near eastern populations?

 

[Vitruvius]

i think if you asked the average central european where this guy is from and you give them two options, 1 central europe, 2 near east, most would probably go for near east. not that he could not pass in central eurpope but he could pass in near east easier than in central europe. there is overlap with near eastern phenotypes even in central europe, i wont deny that unlike you.


here is another north italian peasant from the same book. this time from piemonte.
View attachment 18020
this guy could maybe also pass as swiss but he can pass as somewhere from near east too. and if i didn't know better i would opt for the latter.


sry but that's not who i am. why orientalist? because i do see the similarities between europans and other westeurasians? lol a big chunk of our ancestry came literally from Anatolia not that long ago. you think those people had no phenotypic overlap with other near eastern populations?

Bronze and Iron age Anatolians were autosomally intermediate and closest to modern Greek islanders, Southern Italians and Caucasian populations. They phenotypically would have resembled Europeans, not Levantines, Arabs or Iranians.

 

[gourd2]

Bronze and Iron age Anatolians were autosomally intermediate and closest to modern Greek islanders, Southern Italians and Caucasian populations. They phenotypically would have resembled Europeans, not Levantines, Arabs or Iranians.

do Caucasians, i assume you mean georgians and armenians, only have a resemblance with europeans but not with levantines arabs or iranians? do europeans themselves not resemble these people somewhat already? it's completely wrong to say they would have resembled europeans but not others.

btw very close to bronze age anatolians are also certain levantine people. in fact lebanese christians/muslims seem to be the closest modern populations next to cypriots and anatolian greeks/turks.

 

[Power]

do Caucasians, i assume you mean georgians and armenians, only have a resemblance with europeans but not with levantines arabs or iranians? do europeans themselves not resemble these people somewhat already?

btw very close to bronze age anatolians are also certain levantine people. in fact lebanese christians/muslims seem to be the closest modern populations next to cypriots and anatolian greeks/turks.

the problem is that many people assume that when you cross the bosporus that people start to look like bin laden and fly on carpets etc.

i have posted 1000000 Kurds including DNA tested faces in several forums and many people get surprised by what they see because they have a different idea of how we are supposed to look . it can be pretty frustrating because some people then try to find a hair in the soup and are trying to accuse me of "cherrypicking" 100000000 people including crowd / group pics and videos from festivals etc. even . that i "whitewash" Kurds ...what a bunch of horseshit

in reality the peoples of northern west asia (Kurds , Armenians , Georgians , Turks etc.) have big overlap with europeans . however at the same time as i already said on page 11 that we are still distinguishable as groups and we are uniformly darker than any part of europe . but denying overlap is just dishonest

and whenever a west asian speaks this out he/she will be accused of being a "wannabe european" . it is really annoying .

that being said i am strongly against the darkwashing of italians that has been going in online for many years . italians are actually one of the ethnicities in europe who have the least overlap with us in comparison with other european ethnicities in south europe / balkans

anyway since i am at it i would like to show you a thread i have made here on eupedia . DNA tested Kurdish faces . so basically DNA confirmed Kurds . what is your opinion on our overal looks ? which ethnicities do we overlap with ?

this is what real / actual Kurds look . without gypsy mix . we have many gypsies , arabs , turkmens etc. in Kurdish regions and many larp as Kurds . plus mixed people

Kurds have assimilated gypsies , arabs , turkmens etc. . . but real Kurds look like these DNA tested Kurds

for some reason when i try to give the link of the thread it embeds several pics from the thread lol . sorry for that . please click on it to open the thread to see all Kurds . the ones embedded here are not the only ones there are a lot more in the thread

Thread 'a collection of DNA tested / DNA confirmed Kurdish people'

Dec 23, 2024

hi

all Kurds i will post in this thread are DNA tested and are DNA confirmed Kurds . i have the gedmatch kit number of many and if not then 23andme or Myheritage

give your opinions on which ethnicities overlap lookwise

[img=705x729]https://up.picr.de/48435903pk.jpg[/img]

(she is 1/8 Armenian)

...

• Power
• Replies: 45
• Forum: Anthropology & Ethnography

 

[norbert]

For a time I contest your affirmation; as a whole it seems that the (partially heterogenous) ANF were closest to Neol-Levant and even to Natufians than to WHG's and Iron Gates HG's. ATW exchanges of genes had taken place among someof the ANF people groups before the diaspora into Neolithic Europe. Current Middle-easterners received CHG/Iran after, but that didn't put them so far from ANF, I think; even like that, despite the difference is smaller, you may not say ANF epople were closer toIron Gates HG's.

How could ANFs (G2a) be close to Natufians (E)? It is generally understood that the ANFs emerged from the AHGs whose point of origin must have been in East Anatolia or the Caucasus, far away from where you'd expect the Natufians or their predecessors. It is where AHGs split from the ancestors of WHGs and CHGs at various points in time. In fact, the AHGs are believed to be the earliest split from a core West Eurasian population and are even equated with Dzudzuana. The Natufians have Dzudzuana, too, so that's the only connection. Now fast forward to the neolithic, the ANFs are pretty much the AHGs genetically but there was a minor gene flow from the Levant and the Caucasus but it was limited to the border regions. For some reason, and I suspect it's due to a population explosion, the ANFs expanded in all directions, including the Levant. That's why the Natufian-derived Pre-Pottery Neolithic B has a lot of ANF admixture and not the other way round. Whatever shared ancestry there was between the ANFs and Natufians, it was mediated through Dzudzuana, a core West Eurasian component. But it doesn't make any sense to claim that ANFs were closer to Natufians than WHGs or even CHGs, considering the fact that their principal male haplogroup G2a comes from the macro-group GHIJK, whereas the Natufians belonged to E, itself derived from DE with its closest sibling being the East Asian/Eurasian haplogroup D. Bear also in mind that the Old European language spoken by the Basque, the people most closely related to EEFs/ANFs, seems to be a remnant of the latter. The Natufians are thought to be the progenitors of Afro-Asiatic. Where is the relation?

It doesn't matter what I think. Nobody relates the ANFs to Natufians as was once the case. Today everybody recognises that the ANFs are a separate group (although heterogeneous), completely unrelated to the Natufians and Levantines because they were basically farming AHGs who adopted agriculture on their own. They kept expanding throughout the calcolithic and the Bronze Age, of course, which is why Levantines have so much of their ancestry as opposed to the populations of the Arabian peninsula where the Natufian component is the highest.

 

[real expert]

I don't think anyone considers Middle Easterners to be close to ANFs as (Southern) Europeans. ANFs were closest to the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers in the Balkans. I guess the reason why the ANFs expanded in all directions, but primarily into Europe, is their advanced agriculture which resulted in a population explosion. In Europe they may have given birth to the some of the first civilisations if it wasn't for those Indo-European barbarians who screwed it all up.

Well, here's the thing: people like you and others on Eupedia who have an in-depth understanding of how to read and interpret genetic data recognise these nuances. However, many laypeople only superficially or poorly process/digest what is written and concluded in genetic studies. In fact, I know from many discussions that people who read these ancient genetic papers run with them and come to strange conclusions due to lack of proper understanding. And bear in mind that studies refer to Anatolian farmers as "Middle Easterners/Near Easterners," and when people read this, they associate them with Arabs and West Asians rather than Southern Europeans.

Moreover, I've heard countless times on Reddit, YouTube, and other platforms/forums that white Europeans are not even native to Europe or to any continent for that matter. They bring up the Middle Eastern ANFs to prove their point. For instance, I also read comments that the original Europeans were Black people who got their white skin from the Middle Easterners and that blue eyes isn't a European trait either because it originated in West Asia, etc.

Besides, from my observation, many geneticists tend to use unclear, sloppy, and misleading language in their interviews, which only serves to confuse the public further regarding the origins of Europeans and their genetic heritage. If you only believe certain researchers from universities such as Harvard and Max Planck, you'd think that everything and everyone associated with Europe originated in West Asia.


And then you have people who are worked up about white-looking Roman emperors in recreation, insisting that ancient Romans or Greeks were all tanned, brown Mediterranean people similar to other Mediterranean people such as North Africans and Middle Easterners. Some folks say because the Ancient Greeks and Spartans considered white people, aka Germans, as savages, that means they weren't white.

Crazy stuff and conclusions like that are abound on the internet.

 

[real expert]

Let me clarify: I have nothing against West Asia, its people, or specifically Persians and Iranians. I'm well aware of the rich heritage of Iranians and other West Asian cultures. However, we must remain watchful against the tendency to allow personal biases to distort our understanding. The study of Indo-European origins is a minefield and should be approached with caution. So we shouldn't treat Indo-Europeans as either heroes or villains; instead, we must avoid sanitising their history by denying their (East) European roots out of a desire to counteract or neutralise Nazi ideologies.

 

[gourd2]

But it doesn't make any sense to claim that ANFs were closer to Natufians than WHGs or even CHGs, considering the fact that their principal male haplogroup G2a comes from the macro-group GHIJK, whereas the Natufians belonged to E, itself derived from DE with its closest sibling being the East Asian/Eurasian haplogroup D. Bear also in mind that the Old European language spoken by the Basque, the people most closely related to EEFs/ANFs, seems to be a remnant of the latter. The Natufians are thought to be the progenitors of Afro-Asiatic. Where is the relation?

It doesn't matter what I think. Nobody relates the ANFs to Natufians as was once the case. Today everybody recognises that the ANFs are a separate group (although heterogeneous), completely unrelated to the Natufians and Levantines because they were basically farming AHGs who adopted agriculture on their own. They kept expanding throughout the calcolithic and the Bronze Age, of course, which is why Levantines have so much of their ancestry as opposed to the populations of the Arabian peninsula where the Natufian component is the highest.

genetically speaking it does make sense because, well, that's just the way it is. the argument about haplos is kind of irrelevant.

 

[norbert]

genetically speaking it does make sense because, well, that's just the way it is. the argument about haplos is kind of irrelevant.

What matters is what research says and no one equates ANFs with the Natufians.

 

[Vitruvius]

do Caucasians, i assume you mean georgians and armenians, only have a resemblance with europeans but not with levantines arabs or iranians? do europeans themselves not resemble these people somewhat already? it's completely wrong to say they would have resembled europeans but not others.

btw very close to bronze age anatolians are also certain levantine people. in fact lebanese christians/muslims seem to be the closest modern populations next to cypriots and anatolian greeks/turks.

They certainly resemble Europeans much more than Arabs. Armenians who are the most southern of all Caucasian populations tend to look much closer to southern Europeans than they do Syrians. Caucasians typically have black to brown hair and fair to intermediate skin and are significantly lighter than any Arabic or Iranian populations as an average. Caucasian facial features also align much more closely with Europeans than Arabic individuals. You can clearly see the syrian crowds here have broader and thicker noses compared to the Armenian sample. The populations are not visually interchangable.

Armenians:

Syrians:

 

[Vitruvius]

do Caucasians, i assume you mean georgians and armenians, only have a resemblance with europeans but not with levantines arabs or iranians? do europeans themselves not resemble these people somewhat already? it's completely wrong to say they would have resembled europeans but not others.

btw very close to bronze age anatolians are also certain levantine people. in fact lebanese christians/muslims seem to be the closest modern populations next to cypriots and anatolian greeks/turks.

On the topic of BA anatolia that's also false. The closest modern populations to bronze age Anatolia are all Greeks - typically Greek Islanders, Cypriots and Greek Anatolians. There are no Turks that make the top 5 and in only one case do we see the Lebanese average hit the 5th closest population. The levant has never been as close to Anatolia as you imagine and the closeness that does exist today is a result of Neolithic and Bronze age expansions of Anatolian and Armenian populations into the Levant rather than the inverse.