Iosif Lazaridis: Proto-Indo-Europeans had dark hair, brown eyes, and an intermed‌iate skin tone

[real expert]

Let me clarify: I have nothing against West Asia, its people, or specifically Persians and Iranians. I'm well aware of the rich heritage of Iranians and other West Asian cultures. However, we must remain watchful against the tendency to allow personal biases to distort our understanding. The study of Indo-European origins is a minefield and should be approached with caution. So we shouldn't treat Indo-Europeans as either heroes or villains; instead, we must avoid sanitising their history by denying their (East) European roots out of a desire to counteract or neutralise Nazi ideologies.

 

[gourd2]

But it doesn't make any sense to claim that ANFs were closer to Natufians than WHGs or even CHGs, considering the fact that their principal male haplogroup G2a comes from the macro-group GHIJK, whereas the Natufians belonged to E, itself derived from DE with its closest sibling being the East Asian/Eurasian haplogroup D. Bear also in mind that the Old European language spoken by the Basque, the people most closely related to EEFs/ANFs, seems to be a remnant of the latter. The Natufians are thought to be the progenitors of Afro-Asiatic. Where is the relation?

It doesn't matter what I think. Nobody relates the ANFs to Natufians as was once the case. Today everybody recognises that the ANFs are a separate group (although heterogeneous), completely unrelated to the Natufians and Levantines because they were basically farming AHGs who adopted agriculture on their own. They kept expanding throughout the calcolithic and the Bronze Age, of course, which is why Levantines have so much of their ancestry as opposed to the populations of the Arabian peninsula where the Natufian component is the highest.

genetically speaking it does make sense because, well, that's just the way it is. the argument about haplos is kind of irrelevant.

 

[norbert]

genetically speaking it does make sense because, well, that's just the way it is. the argument about haplos is kind of irrelevant.

What matters is what research says and no one equates ANFs with the Natufians.

 

[Vitruvius]

do Caucasians, i assume you mean georgians and armenians, only have a resemblance with europeans but not with levantines arabs or iranians? do europeans themselves not resemble these people somewhat already? it's completely wrong to say they would have resembled europeans but not others.

btw very close to bronze age anatolians are also certain levantine people. in fact lebanese christians/muslims seem to be the closest modern populations next to cypriots and anatolian greeks/turks.

They certainly resemble Europeans much more than Arabs. Armenians who are the most southern of all Caucasian populations tend to look much closer to southern Europeans than they do Syrians. Caucasians typically have black to brown hair and fair to intermediate skin and are significantly lighter than any Arabic or Iranian populations as an average. Caucasian facial features also align much more closely with Europeans than Arabic individuals. You can clearly see the syrian crowds here have broader and thicker noses compared to the Armenian sample. The populations are not visually interchangable.

Armenians:

Syrians:

 

[Vitruvius]

do Caucasians, i assume you mean georgians and armenians, only have a resemblance with europeans but not with levantines arabs or iranians? do europeans themselves not resemble these people somewhat already? it's completely wrong to say they would have resembled europeans but not others.

btw very close to bronze age anatolians are also certain levantine people. in fact lebanese christians/muslims seem to be the closest modern populations next to cypriots and anatolian greeks/turks.

On the topic of BA anatolia that's also false. The closest modern populations to bronze age Anatolia are all Greeks - typically Greek Islanders, Cypriots and Greek Anatolians. There are no Turks that make the top 5 and in only one case do we see the Lebanese average hit the 5th closest population. The levant has never been as close to Anatolia as you imagine and the closeness that does exist today is a result of Neolithic and Bronze age expansions of Anatolian and Armenian populations into the Levant rather than the inverse.

 

[thunorr]

It better that we focus on new scientific studies, Iosif Lazaridis, Nick Patterson, David Anthony, David Reich, ... say CLV, not WSH, as the origin of Indo-Europeans.

Higher steppe inherently means more CLV.

 

[Moja]

Let me clarify: I have nothing against West Asia, its people, or specifically Persians and Iranians. I'm well aware of the rich heritage of Iranians and other West Asian cultures. However, we must remain watchful against the tendency to allow personal biases to distort our understanding. The study of Indo-European origins is a minefield and should be approached with caution. So we shouldn't treat Indo-Europeans as either heroes or villains; instead, we must avoid sanitising their history by denying their (East) European roots out of a desire to counteract or neutralise Nazi ideologies.

Scholars don't care what you or Nazis think, it has been proved that the original Indo-Europeans had CHG/Iranian ancestry, not EHG ancestry, as you read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_hunter-gatherer The formation of the EHG ancestral component is estimated to have happened 13,000–15,000 years BP but no one talks about Indo-Europeans in this region before the arrival of CHG/Iranian ancestry about 5000 BP, the most important point is that Anatolians, as the oldest known IE people, had no EHG ancestry, all things are clear, those Eastern Europeans just adopted an IE culture and had no role in the formation of this culture.

 

[Power]

They certainly resemble Europeans much more than Arabs. Armenians who are the most southern of all Caucasian populations tend to look much closer to southern Europeans than they do Syrians. Caucasians typically have black to brown hair and fair to intermediate skin and are significantly lighter than any Arabic or Iranian populations as an average. Caucasian facial features also align much more closely with Europeans than Arabic individuals. You can clearly see the syrian crowds here have broader and thicker noses compared to the Armenian sample. The populations are not visually interchangable.

Armenians are not "whiter" than us Kurds . in fact Türkiye Kurds are a bit whiter than Armenians as a whole espcially when you also include western Armenians . but overall Armenians and Kurds are the same level of "whiteness" . i say this because you said "than any iranian population" and we are an iranic speaking people

i dont know why i am ignored and why people dont look into the threads i linked in this thread . when you look into the threads i linked you will see how real / actual Kurds look like . without gypsy mix

by the way the reason why even Syrians are darker and more exotic looking than Kurds Armenians etc. is their natufian ancestry . they have a lot more of it than we do

additionally we Kurds are around 10% EHG

please check out this thread :

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/a-collection-of-dna-tested-dna-confirmed-kurdish-people.45514/

 

[MOESAN]

Thanks for the pics
That said I don't s

They certainly resemble Europeans much more than Arabs. Armenians who are the most southern of all Caucasian populations tend to look much closer to southern Europeans than they do Syrians. Caucasians typically have black to brown hair and fair to intermediate skin and are significantly lighter than any Arabic or Iranian populations as an average. Caucasian facial features also align much more closely with Europeans than Arabic individuals. You can clearly see the syrian crowds here have broader and thicker noses compared to the Armenian sample. The populations are not visually interchangable.

Armenians:

View attachment 18024
View attachment 18025
View attachment 18029
Syrians:

View attachment 18026
View attachment 18027
View attachment 18028

ahre totally you

 

[MOESAN]

Thanks for the pics
That said I don't s

They certainly resemble Europeans much more than Arabs. Armenians who are the most southern of all Caucasian populations tend to look much closer to southern Europeans than they do Syrians. Caucasians typically have black to brown hair and fair to intermediate skin and are significantly lighter than any Arabic or Iranian populations as an average. Caucasian facial features also align much more closely with Europeans than Arabic individuals. You can clearly see the syrian crowds here have broader and thicker noses compared to the Armenian sample. The populations are not visually interchangable.

Armenians:

View attachment 18024
View attachment 18025
View attachment 18029
Syrians:

View attachment 18026
View attachment 18027
View attachment 18028

ahre totally you

 

[MOESAN]

Thanks for the pics
That said I don't s

They certainly resemble Europeans much more than Arabs. Armenians who are the most southern of all Caucasian populations tend to look much closer to southern Europeans than they do Syrians. Caucasians typically have black to brown hair and fair to intermediate skin and are significantly lighter than any Arabic or Iranian populations as an average. Caucasian facial features also align much more closely with Europeans than Arabic individuals. You can clearly see the syrian crowds here have broader and thicker noses compared to the Armenian sample. The populations are not visually interchangable.

Armenians:

View attachment 18024
View attachment 18025
View attachment 18029
Syrians:

View attachment 18026
View attachment 18027
View attachment 18028

THanks for pics.
I don' share totally your analysis. You're right for the means but we can see there are a non negligible number of people in Syria that can pass in Armenia, Turkey and even soutehrn European post. To say the contrary is not accurate or is dishonest, IMO. WHat we can see too is that some more or less recent SSA inputs have modified the Arabes and Arabised pop's. NO po is homogenous concerning phoenotypes, what we have are gradians.

 

[lockdownboredom]

Armenians are not "whiter" than us Kurds . in fact Türkiye Kurds are a bit whiter than Armenians as a whole espcially when you also include western Armenians . but overall Armenians and Kurds are the same level of "whiteness" . i say this because you said "than any iranian population" and we are an iranic speaking people

i dont know why i am ignored and why people dont look into the threads i linked in this thread . when you look into the threads i linked you will see how real / actual Kurds look like . without gypsy mix

by the way the reason why even Syrians are darker and more exotic looking than Kurds Armenians etc. is their natufian ancestry . they have a lot more of it than we do

additionally we Kurds are around 10% EHG

please check out this thread :

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/a-collection-of-dna-tested-dna-confirmed-kurdish-people.45514/

I doubt Kurds are 10% EHG but regardless it doesn't matter as that isn't direct EHG input but transferred via Yamnaya and then transferred and diluted further by admixed Middle Eastern groups who didn't have the slightest resemblance to Yamnaya. It's a similar story to Northern South Asians who have inherited substantial Yamnaya but don't remotely look like them. And they aren't considered part white because of any EHG they score in a calculator. Furthermore, a similar phenomenon is present with the ANF found in Middle Easterns who inherited it from mixed Copper Age Anatolian and Neolithic Levantine populations that would have diverged phenotypically from ANF, just like Yamnaya phenotypically diverging from EHG and CHG. And in a modern context, Mestizos diverging from Spanish/Natives.

Also get off your high horse, Kurds aren't even native to Anatolia/Caucasus whereas Armenians are. Even the name Kurd means tent dweller/nomad so no different to Gypsies in that respect. Show me another ethnicity from these areas with nearly 40% Iran Neolithic ancestry. Kurds are just offshoot Iranians who are much more exotic than Armenians. To put into perspective how rediculous your claim of Kurds being whiter than Armenians is, it would be like a Gypsy claiming they are whiter than Balkanites.

 

[Power]

I doubt Kurds are 10% EHG but regardless it doesn't matter as that isn't direct EHG input but transferred via Yamnaya and then transferred and diluted further by admixed Middle Eastern groups who didn't have the slightest resemblance to Yamnaya. It's a similar story to Northern South Asians who have inherited substantial Yamnaya but don't remotely look like them. And they aren't considered part white because of any EHG they score in a calculator. Furthermore, a similar phenomenon is present with the ANF found in Middle Easterns who inherited it from mixed Copper Age Anatolian and Neolithic Levantine populations that would have diverged phenotypically from ANF, just like Yamnaya phenotypically diverging from EHG and CHG. And in a modern context, Mestizos diverging from Spanish/Natives.

Also get off your high horse, Kurds aren't even native to Anatolia/Caucasus whereas Armenians are. Even the name Kurd means tent dweller/nomad so no different to Gypsies in that respect. Show me another ethnicity from these areas with nearly 40% Iran Neolithic ancestry. Kurds are just offshoot Iranians who are much more exotic than Armenians. To put into perspective how rediculous your claim of Kurds being whiter than Armenians is, it would be like a Gypsy claiming they are whiter than Balkanites.

we are native to most of the lands we inhabit . and it doesnt matter where you have a component from . it is like saying "oh you drank coke and got your sugar from there instead of a chocolate bar so this means the sugar is different " . no sugar is sugar it doesnt matter where your body gets it from . when you break it down and use proper models that are far past in time it will show . by the way we dont have our ANF / EEF from Levantines . when you use Levant N and ANF in a model we score way more ANF by itself . it prefers the ANF

what about iran neolithic ? every northern west asian ethnicity has a lot of it . Armenians are around 21% Zagros N / Iran N while Kurds are around 33% . Armenians are 26% CHG while Kurds are around 17% btw. so saying they are native caucasians while Kurds are from mars at the same time is bullshit .

are you one of those annoying people who darkwash Iran N ? Iran N is not like what certain people claim to be . also Greek Islanders can be up to 20% Iran N individually and even mainland Greeks score several percent if i remember right . even Albanians can be 7-8% sometimes

i said TR Kurds are a bit whiter than Armenians as a whole lookwise but Kurds and Armenians are on par more or less .

why are you triggered by my posts btw. ? and why are you writing in a hostile style ? i didnt do anything wrong so i dont understand why you behave like this tbh

 

[lockdownboredom]

we are native to most of the lands we inhabit . and it doesnt matter where you have a component from . it is like saying "oh you drank coke and got your sugar from there instead of a chocolate bar so this means the sugar is different " . no sugar is sugar it doesnt matter where your body gets it from . when you break it down and use proper models that are far past in time it will show . by the way we dont have our ANF / EEF from Levantines . when you use Levant N and ANF in a model we score way more ANF by itself . it prefers the ANF

what about iran neolithic ? every northern west asian ethnicity has a lot of it . Armenians are around 21% Zagros N / Iran N while Kurds are around 33% . Armenians are 26% CHG while Kurds are around 17% btw. so saying they are native caucasians while Kurds are from mars at the same time is bullshit .

are you one of those annoying people who darkwash Iran N ? Iran N is not like what certain people claim to be . also Greek Islanders can be up to 20% Iran N individually and even mainland Greeks score several percent if i remember right . even Albanians can be 7-8% sometimes

i said TR Kurds are a bit whiter than Armenians as a whole lookwise but Kurds and Armenians are on par more or less .

why are you triggered by my posts btw. ? and why are you writing in a hostile style ? i didnt do anything wrong so i dont understand why you behave like this tbh

You are Iranian imports supplied by the Sultan. A cake isn't an egg because it contains eggs is it? Nah Kurds are nearly 40% Iran Neolithic and your people are from the heartland where Iran Neolithic people resided. Hence a higher chance of direct Iran Neolithic ancestry. Greeks didn't inherit their Iran N directly from Iran Neolithic people, it was passed on by a third party. And you don't even need to model Greeks with Iran N as CHG will suffice.

Because you post the same crap repeatedly and make out whitneness to be some sort of competition among West Asians.

 

[Power]

You are Iranian imports supplied by the Sultan. A cake isn't an egg because it contains eggs is it? Nah Kurds are nearly 40% Iran Neolithic and your people are from the heartland where Iran Neolithic people resided. Hence a higher chance of direct Iran Neolithic ancestry. Greeks didn't inherit their Iran N directly from Iran Neolithic people, it was passed on by a third party. And you don't even need to model Greeks with Iran N as CHG will suffice.

dont believe those anti kurd turks who say such things . we are native to eastern and southeastern turkey there are even ancient maps proving this and it is also historically known that we kurds helped the turkomans to enter anatolia . we opened the gates for them and helped them enter .

we are not 40% iran neo . we are 33% . i dont know where you have 40% from lol . can you give me a model that shows 40% . i can share my model with you which i am sure is a very good model

if it was for me we could be 50 60 % Iran N because i like the component a lot . it is a beautiful component (and it is also misportrayed by many idiots online) but we are 33%

Greeks have Iran N in decent amounts . and it doesnt matter where you have it from . again .... . as i said when you break it down it is still Iran N and you score it . if you score it you score it

Because you post the same crap repeatedly and make out whitneness to be some sort of competition among West Asians.

i really dont . and my posts were not intended to do this . all i want is to show my people the way we are and i am correcting the wrong anthromyths about us . nothing more nothing less . i dont have any bad intentions

i know you from TA btw. . . please dont behave like a typical TA person

i would like us to discuss in a respectful manner and we could model ethnicities and ourselves with G25 if you want

 

[lockdownboredom]

dont believe those anti kurd turks who say such things . we are native to eastern and southeastern turkey there are even ancient maps proving this and it is also historically known that we kurds helped the turkomans to enter anatolia . we opened the gates for them and helped them enter .

we are not 40% iran neo . we are 33% . i dont know where you have 40% from lol . can you give me a model that shows 40% . i can share my model with you which i am sure is a very good model

if it was for me we could be 50 60 % Iran N because i like the component a lot . it is a beautiful component (and it is also misportrayed by many idiots online) but we are 33%

Greeks have Iran N in decent amounts . and it doesnt matter where you have it from . again .... . as i said when you break it down it is still Iran N and you score it . if you score it you score it




i really dont . and my posts were not intended to do this . all i want is to show my people the way we are and i am correcting the wrong anthromyths about us . nothing more nothing less . i dont have any bad intentions

i know you from TA btw. . . please dont behave like a typical TA person

i would like us to discuss in a respectful manner and we could model ethnicities and ourselves with G25 if you want

What maps? Do you have any Byzantine sources referencing Kurds? When I am on my computer I will review QPADM runs of Kurds and post.

"it doesnt matter where you have it from . again" So is it your belief that the child of a Northern Indian and a Black person has the chance of turning out Swedish looking just because the kid will inherit Yamnaya from the Indian side?

 

[Power]

when i try to quote you it quotes your previous respones too so i will just reply without a quote

a greek member on our forum did qpAdm runs for Kurds before but i dont know how accurate they are and there we scored even more than 40%

Kurd-43: 17% Yamnaya_Samara + 33.5% Anatolia_N + 49% Iran_N + 5% CHG.

Kurd-45: 22.2% Yamnaya_Samara + 33.3% Anatolia_N + 44.5% Iran_N.

Kurd-49: 22.5% Yamnaya_Samara + 36% Anatolia_N + 41.4% Iran_N.


but i was talking about G25 . i know qpAdm is the academic tool and would be better . however i would only trust models of experts because qpAdm can also often be inaccurate especially in meso-neolithic time areas


" So is it your belief that the offspring of a Northern Indian and a Black person has the chance of turning out Swedish looking just because the kid will inherit Yamnaya from the Indian side?"

no of course not but he will not look swedish because he doesnt have ENOUGH yamnaya to begin with AND because of the ssa and other components he has MORE of .

again think about the example i gave with sugar in our bodies . if you drink a soft drink or eat gummy bears it doesnt matter in your body the sugar will be sugar . this is true for our components in us too . when you have Iran N you have Iran N

 

[lockdownboredom]

QDADAM is the only credible tool. The others are merely for entertainment. These components are too ancient and mixed to the point you won't come out looking like one. Wood can become sawdust and it will never become a tree again. A metzizo or half black/half white person are never going to produce offspring with non white people who resemble their European ancestors.

 

[Power]

QDADAM is the only credible tool. The others are merely for entertainment. These components are too ancient and mixed to the point you won't come out looking like one. Wood can become sawdust and it will never become a tree again. A metzizo or half black/half white person are never going to produce offspring with non white people who resemble their European ancestors.

because they have too much ssa or amerindian ......bruh

 

[Power]

by the way you might actually be the greek member who made these qpadm runs . are you onyx ?

be honest . you can also pm me if you dont want others to know