Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

R-Z2705 has not been found among Illyrians. From internal data(Kruja-komani unpublished samples), rrenjet an extremely biased organization let the cat out of the bag by admitting R-Z2705 came with E-V13 into modern Albania. It's association with J2b-L283 is urban myth from a clique that tries to forge history.

From IBD tests, there is zero E-V13s links with Illyrians, one has to completely disregard dna analytics to agree with absurd E-V13 illyrian crackpot theories. On twitter even random Armenians are debating you and your team on the merits of Thracian origin. Good luck convincing a German mapmaker who is addicted to reading about archeological cultures that E-V13 = Illyrians. Please keep going. You must try harder. Tell him about the Messapian rosetta stone that can be deciphered only with a special gheg accent from the caves of tropoja.

 

[Southpaw]

"Y-DNA Piecharts of Illyrians, Thracians, Iron-Age pannonia and Early Medieval Pannonia"

By @Maptysk on twitter.

A pretty good effort considering the discord crew of 3rd rate Illyrian jihadists that are in his ear trying to orient him towards their fantasies.

Whats clear immediately from looking at the charts even for a layman is that the Albanian branches of EV13 like Z5018 and Z5017 were Daco-Thracian.

They have been trying for a while to push this meme about BY5022 being Thracian and the lack if it among Albanians somehow therefore making Albanian non-Daco-Thracian.

This was a poor attempt that was dead on arrival since BY5022 is a Southeast Thracian clade, and Albanian is from Moesia not Southern Thracians, so Albanian descends from Moesian clades and we shouldn't expect it to have BY5022.

The almost total lack of BY5022 among Albanians is also another strong indicator that Albanian EV13 and the Albanian language descend from Moesia.

Why?

Well, the Illyrian jihadists are already trying to do damage control:

The Albanian Ev13 branches they have no chance of laundering as Illyrian they will instead claim now as romanised thracians that entered Albanian.

But if EV13 had entered Albanian as a romanised group the distribution would have had a hodge podge ratio of random Latinised peoples, not a cohesive Moesian single unit. We would see way more southeastern branches among Albanians like By5022, but instead we see the opposite.

What follows is that this is actually a total inversion of the real state of things, that Ev13 in Albanians isnt from Romanised Thracians but that J2b-L283 is actually from Romanised Illyrians, of which there is a clear archeological and toponymic signal in Albania, even matching where J2b-L283 concentrations are highest.

Link: https://tinyurl.com/4pcvjha6

We literally have the single best book to date on Illyrians (2021) both archaeologically and linguistically and the conclusion is:

The phonological knowledge is nevertheless so fundamental that essential and decisive points can be recognised. The linguistic-historical comparison of the development of the Illyrian with the Albanian phoneme system and its prehistory, for example, reveals elementary discrepancies that make a derivation of Albanian from Illyrian impossible. The same applies to other ancient languages with which Illyrian has been connected. For Albanian, finally, it is the case that it is a language independent of Illyrian.

Thus there was a language shift from Illyrian to Latin … At a certain post-antique point in time, Illyrian therefore met the fate of many other ancient languages: it died out.”

It is quite normal that we shall look the language on something present among modern Albanians and absent among Illyrians, and deductive logic brings us to E-V13 which is even more evenly widespread, it fits the bills.

 

[Johane Derite]

What makes all these Albanian - Daco-Thracian concordances that these linguists argue for interesting also is the particular relevance of Albanopolis to the Albanian ethnogenesis.

In Thomas Maurer and Elvana Metalla's latest 2024 study on Albanopolis, their analysis of the earliest inscription to mention Albanopolis, found in North Macedonia, points out the all the names of these early Albanopolis dwellers belong to the Daco-Thracian realm, not the Illyrian realm.

Given that this region is where the Albanian people get their name from, the importance of this cannot be understated.

They write:

"A look at the known Illyrian name material shows the absence of comparable personal names in present-day Albania and the surrounding northern regions.

Thus, we must conclude that the names of the person(s) from Albanopolis mentioned in the inscription from Gorno Sonje are more likely to be associated with the (Western) Thracian than with the Illyrian linguistic area."

View attachment 18618

Another interesting point from the paper quoted above.

From the new paper on Albanopolis, the analysis of the name itself points to something interesting.

Maurer & Metalla argue that the analysis of the name of "Albanopolis" itself points to Albanopolis being a new foundation entirely, not a renaming of an already existing site.

Also from the name analysis they argue that the dating of this foundation to be sometime between 167BC and the early Imperial period. This is pretty early, but also after the invasion of Balkans by romans, so it belongs to the post-roman era.

When we take into account the other information of names coming from Albanopolis, like the fact that they are from the Daco-Moesian area rather than the Illyrian linguistic area, it potentially points to Albanopolis being some sort of settlement founded by Daco-Moesians sometime in the post-roman period.

Given that this area is inextricably linked to the Albanian ethnogenesis, this is fascinating.

 

[Johane Derite]

Another interesting point from the paper quoted above.

From the new paper on Albanopolis, the analysis of the name itself points to something interesting.

Maurer & Metalla argue that the analysis of the name of "Albanopolis" itself points to Albanopolis being a new foundation entirely, not a renaming of an already existing site.

Also from the name analysis they argue that the dating of this foundation to be sometime between 167BC and the early Imperial period. This is pretty early, but also after the invasion of Balkans by romans, so it belongs to the post-roman era.

When we take into account the other information of names coming from Albanopolis, like the fact that they are from the Daco-Moesian area rather than the Illyrian linguistic area, it potentially points to Albanopolis being some sort of settlement founded by Daco-Moesians sometime in the post-roman period.

Given that this area is inextricably linked to the Albanian ethnogenesis, this is fascinating.

View attachment 18910

And to complement this, what good is knowing that Albanopolis was founded in the post-roman era if we don't know where it even was yet?

From the new paper Maurer & Metalla argue that Albanopolis was most likely further east than all the communist hypotheses that were pushed by the Albanian state in the 20th century.

A summary from Grok:

Characteristics of Albanopolis and Implications for Localization

Historical and Administrative Context:

The authors infer from the name "Albanopolis" (translated as "City of the Albanoi," based on Ptolemy's phrasing) that it was likely a new Roman foundation or a synoikismos (merger of indigenous settlements) rather than a renamed existing site. Such "ethnic" city names (combining an ethnicon like "Albano-" with "-polis") are rare in the Greek world and more typical of Roman organizational efforts in newly acquired provinces like Macedonia (from 148 BCE onward). They date this to between 167 BCE and the early Imperial period, when Roman rulers replaced Hellenistic ones as name patrons, possibly as part of urbanizing or administering non-urbanized areas (comparable to Gallic civitates under Rome).

Onomastic Evidence:
The Gorno Sonje inscription mentions individuals (e.g., Delus from Albanopolis) with names (Posis, Mestylus, Delus, Mucatus) that align more with Thracian or Macedonian-Thracian onomastics than Illyrian ones. This suggests proximity to Thracian-influenced regions, further east from Zgërdhesh.

Absence in Other Sources:
Albanopolis is not mentioned by Pliny the Elder or in itineraries/periploi, implying it was off major routes, supporting an inland, eastern location.


Proposed Alternative Locations

The authors synthesize that Albanopolis must have been an urban or significant settlement in the Roman province of Macedonia's northern fringe, active in the 1st–2nd centuries CE, with possible Thracian ties, and likely a Roman-era foundation.

 

[broder]

A whole lot of assumptions based on a toponym that we don’t even know if it was the foundation of our ethnonym. Plus, if you are looking for Albs ancestors, a city founded by the Romans wouldn’t be the place I would look for.

What one can deduce out of that data is that it was a Roman city perhaps settled with legionaries from other regions - which was the norm for Romans as we have seen with other sites.

 

[broder]

R-Z2705 has not been found among Illyrians. From internal data(Kruja-komani unpublished samples), rrenjet an extremely biased organization let the cat out of the bag by admitting R-Z2705 came with E-V13 into modern Albania. Its association with J2b-L283 is urban myth from a clique that tries to forge history.

From IBD tests, there is zero E-V13s links with Illyrians, one has to completely disregard dna analytics to agree with absurd E-V13 illyrian crackpot theories. On twitter even random Armenians are debating you and your team on the merits of Thracian origin. Good luck convincing a German mapmaker who is addicted to reading about archeological cultures that E-V13 = Illyrians. Please keep going. You must try harder. Tell him about the Messapian rosetta stone that can be deciphered only with a special gheg accent from the caves of tropoja.

Who cares what a bugaro Vlach from Gollobord has to say?

Besides, no data as of yet so that’s just a dubious speculation. Also, Komani-Kruja had many elements that point to other populations consolidating into Albania from other Roman urban centres after Rome fell, so if they hadn’t hit our major linages perhaps that’s a clue of some sort?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Who cares what a bugaro Vlach from Gollobord has to say?

The person behind projekti rrenjet account is dibranja?

Besides, no data as of yet so that’s just a dubious speculation. Also, Komani-Kruja had many elements that point to other populations consolidating into Albania from other Roman urban centres after Rome fell, so if they hadn’t hit our major linages perhaps that’s a clue of some sort?

It's not baseless, look at the new pre-print on the IBD runs. The single sample from Kenete T2a, has zero relation with the sample from Shtike. The IBD fragment it share is 10 CMs but its made of two likely 5 CM each. The Greek authors literally wrote the two are likely not closely related. It's pretty obvious they are not related at all, and at least one of the common 5 CM fragments represents Slavic admixture not paleo-Balkan heritage.

Later Albanian samples(Ottoman and modern) share lots of IBD segments with both, Kenete and Shtike, however the sharing with Shtike is almost twice as much. Look at the massive segments Shtike shares with Kukes -Ottoman period. Also notice the fragment with Kenete is 10.92, much smaller than Albanian samples that are literally 600 years into the future. But the segment is made of two with the largest being 5.76 CM, LOL. Shtike shares bigger fragment with an Thracian early Iron Age sample 5.953 CM, that is 1,600 years older than Shtike, vs Kenete which lived in the same time period.

Shtike = 900 AD, Kenete 880 AD, I20181 likely 800 BC, Kukes-post mdv = 1500-1600 AD

Not baseless at all.

 

[broder]

Yeah, he is in origin a GolloBrđani

To be honest I don’t take those IBD studies based on low coverage on those ancient dna BAM’s too seriously.

However, Shtike is a female and again not that surprising considering Romans shuffled a lot of populations back and forth. Kenete fella T-FGC47678 is exactly what I would expect for these movements during early Medieval to have brought with Komani, with Latinized populations.

 

[Johane Derite]

A whole lot of assumptions based on a toponym that we don’t even know if it was the foundation of our ethnonym.

I hear where you're coming from, it could obviously be possible that this is a coincidental toponym close to where Albanians later appear, but I'm sure you can agree with me that this would be a coincidence.

I'm sure you can see how it's pretty fair to assume that Albanopolis is the foundation of our ethnonym rather then the other scenario of it being an unrelated coincidence.

Plus, if you are looking for Albs ancestors, a city founded by the Romans wouldn’t be the place I would look for.

I'm not sure I understand this part exactly. If a city is founded by the Romans then we shouldn't look for Alb ancestors to have been there? Or do you just mean it isn't a suitable place for where the Albanian ethnogenesis happened. I think it's probable with the information we have for now to assume that at least some of the ancestors of the Albanians were in Albanopolis and this place had some key role in the Albanian ethnogenesis.

Whether the Albanian ethnogenesis was a multiphase process or not with other regions, early phases including semi-nomadic migratory populations encountering local settled latinised Illyrian populations, that's another factor.

If I can ask though, where is the specific place you would look for the Albanian ancestors?

 

[broder]

I hear where you're coming from, it could obviously be possible that this is a coincidental toponym close to where Albanians later appear, but I'm sure you can agree with me that this would be a coincidence.

I'm sure you can see how it's pretty fair to assume that Albanopolis is the foundation of our ethnonym rather then the other scenario of it being an unrelated coincidence.

I'm not sure I understand this part exactly. If a city is founded by the Romans then we shouldn't look for Alb ancestors to have been there? Or do you just mean it isn't a suitable place for where the Albanian ethnogenesis happened. I think it's probable with the information we have for now to assume that at least some of the ancestors of the Albanians were in Albanopolis and this place had some key role in the Albanian ethnogenesis.

Whether the Albanian ethnogenesis was a multiphase process or not with other regions, early phases including semi-nomadic migratory populations encountering local settled latinised Illyrian populations, that's another factor.

If I can ask though, where is the specific place you would look for the Albanian ancestors?

Ancestry wise, sure they could have contributed but I wouldn't look for the Alb ethnogenesis, as a whole linguistically speaking, in an urbanized Roman settlement. I mean Romans mixed a hell a lot of stuff, plus even after they fell Albania became a refugium for the local Latin and native speaking communities - probably why we see a ton of V13 concentration where it seems to have been almost nonexistent previously (for the data we have).


Albanians back then most certainly were super conservative hence why they managed to survive. In that sense I would look for those interesting lineages that single us out from the rest of the Balkans. As an area, I would look anywhere from North Albania, southern Monte, Kosove and southern Serbian. All those regions make sense to me. The only black hole ancient dna wise thus far Kosove and Southern Serbia remain to be.

Those linages that do tend to make us stand out are obviously Z2705, PF7563, L283 and some V13 subclades like FGC11450, BY4461 etc. V13 were probably Thracian initially speaking but how we got them still remains up in the air. Some we could have gotten during Iron Age, like those I mentioned, and many others perhaps later on.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Yeah, he is in origin a GolloBrđani

To be honest I don’t take those IBD studies based on low coverage on those ancient dna BAM’s too seriously.

However, Shtike is a female and again not that surprising considering Romans shuffled a lot of populations back and forth. Kenete fella T-FGC47678 is exactly what I would expect for these movements during early Medieval to have brought with Komani, with Latinized populations.

There is nothing low coverage about shtike or kenete. Modern Albanian samples show the same relation to them as the Kukes Ottoman. Keep coping and call samples from 850-950 AD "Roman".

 

[broder]

There is nothing low coverage about shtike or kenete. Modern Albanian samples show the same relation to them as the Kukes Ottoman. Keep coping and call samples from 850-950 AD "Roman".

So we are basing everything on a female from Shtike now? Who knows what her background was, but she obviously contributed to our makeup and so did the Kenete fella who also most likely came to the region during Roman era (not when he was buried). I mean are we arguing now that his Y linages is native since Neolithic era?

Instead of a nitpicking a female why not focus on the larger picture? You sort of do the same thing with that other female from Ancient Macedonia, but don't bring it up how the fella from an earlier period, the CTS7556+ Ulanci guy or actually even the Volandovo samples especially CTS1450+ fella share segments with Illyrians samples from Monte, Croatia and even the Maros set. Autosomal dna is a slippery slope, because it's hard to determine which way the influence flowed unless you have a clear picture of how people moved. Hence why the focus on the Ys..


Her Mtdna tree: https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U4c1/

 

[PaleoRevenge]

What's wrong with the Shtike sample? It's high coverage, and it represents the main IBD clusters of Albanians. It's ancient connection point to Thracian, albeit this connection seems weak, the Thracian samples in question predate it 1,600-1,800 years. The issue is a big gap in data especially from Thracian sphere. The other issue is they should have tested all samples from Shtike site, but I have no say here.

Instead of a nitpicking a female why not focus on the larger picture? You sort of do the same thing with that other female from Ancient Macedonia, but don't bring it up how the fella from an earlier period, the CTS7556+ Ulanci guy or actually even the Volandovo samples especially CTS1450+ fella share segments with Illyrians samples from Monte, Croatia and even the Maros set. Autosomal dna is a slippery slope, because it's hard to determine which way the influence flowed unless you have a clear picture of how people moved. Hence why the focus on the Ys..

Ulanci sample has no connection to Illyrians, a very weak one. The sample from Valandovo(there's two not one) are Illyrian and not a true local, Illyrians invaded in 750 BC expanded all the way deep into Greek Macedonia, their footholds was brief, roughly 150 years. They were pushed back. You will be disappointed when more samples get eventually published as your branch has a much better chance of being Paeonian.

 

[broder]

What's wrong with the Shtike sample? It's high coverage, and it represents the main IBD clusters of Albanians. It's ancient connection point to Thracian, albeit this connection seems weak, the Thracian samples in question predate it 1,600-1,800 years. The issue is a big gap in data especially from Thracian sphere. The other issue is they should have tested all samples from Shtike site, but I have no say here.



Ulanci sample has no connection to Illyrians, a very weak one. The sample from Valandovo(there's two not one) are Illyrian and not a true local, Illyrians invaded in 750 BC expanded all the way deep into Greek Macedonia, their footholds was brief, roughly 150 years. They were pushed back. You will be disappointed when more samples get eventually published as your branch has a much better chance of being Paeonian.

Still a female, we can't track her background. In those days females were sold like cattle..

Ulanci has a connection too autosomally and confirmed via Y-DNA, look at those segments over 6 with a female from Maros (who are CTS7556 too) and a fella L283>PH1602 from Iron Age from Croatia. A smaller segment with a Roman sample from Croatia under Z631 too, and obviously also to the Volandovo who is CTS1450 as well. Volandovo obviously are from later period but their connection to Cinamak is concrete. You have a triangle from Maros to Adriatic and North Macedonia.

Yamnaya package that brought Greek, Illyrian and Messapian was most certainly PF7563, L283 and Z2103 - this is as clear as day now. Albanian being part of the "Illyrian group" as a base confirmed via Messapian and Y-DNA - which probably sometimes during Iron Age got altered via imposition structurally as a substrate by V13 Thracian (and other related groups). Hence why even the Centum vs Satem classifications don't apply because we are dealing with a language that has shifted and evolved - just like we see how the Slanovic tribes altered Tosk later on.

Why would I be disappointed? All related groups as we have seen.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

There's is a lot imaginary relations that you imply in your posts. Balkan Yamnaya split up, Illyrians being heavy WHG shifted, we have so many Illyrian samples that the shift is quite obvious from BA to Iron Age. The samples from Macedonia(non-illyrian ones) show some sharing with BA Illyrians and EBA Serbia and a lot less with Iron Age Illyrians. This contrast show Illyrians overtime became more and more different from other Balkan Yamnya groups. Heavily mixed with Italics and some para-Celtic groups, so much so it even influenced their language. For political reasons you just claim non-sense how they were all one, Paeonians don't matter or exits, Brygians don't matter or exists, and on and on.

R-PF7563 is a Brygian haplgroup, not Illyrian, it only shows up in areas Illyrians conquered from Brygians(one sample so far lol), the only Illyrian R-PF7563 from Cinamak has no real IBD segments with sharing Illyrians, which is strange as even mpm-Illyrian samples from Fyrom/Maceodnia show much more IBD sharing. In fact his biggest segment is with the miss dated sample from Korce who is also R-PF7563. It all points to R-PF7563 being its own cultural group.

Somehow to you they are all one or will mix to become one. This is all self-serving type of argument.

Still a female, we can't track her background. In those days females were sold like cattle..

Great argument, ignore the data, she could have been teleported from Mars.

Whatever she is from(or where her group came from) she has zero relation with Illyrian populations, and we have plenty of Illyrian samples, including Roman period, if there was any connection it would pick up on the IBD reads. You can try to dance around this all you want, but IBD evidence sticks like a sore thumb, no relation to Illyrians.

There are 40+ burials in Shtike, southern Arc says in this study we included only one. "One individual from this cemetery is included in this study". There are other samples that can be tested if not already tested. 100% certain if the rest of the samples are tested, they are E-V13 and your haplogroup, which you badly want to associate with J2b because Yamanaya days.

Ulanci has a connection too autosomally and confirmed via Y-DNA, look at those segments over 6 with a female from Maros (who are CTS7556 too)

Yeah he is Yamnaya derived, also Paeonians show more relation to Maros than Illyrians, because Illyrian profile shifted toward Italic, that's how they became different. That's how linguistic and ethnic groups split and diverge with time.

 

[broder]

Accusing me of talking about imaginary things, but here you are talking about Brygians - mythical creatures like Kulshedra

Dude, of course you shift autosomally as you move into new realms and mix with the populations you encounter. What did you except, they remain identical for 1000 of years? Track their Y lineages to see how they moved and what populations they founded. Delmatea, Japodes etc of course changed and absorbed other people but you still see that they have PH1602 in common. Further south you have different dynamics and tribes, other linages becoming more dominant, and by Mati Glasinac era we see what Cinamak had.

What political reasons bro, what if she was Thracian shifted autosomally? We see that CTS9320 was even in Ambracia during Iron Age, and obviously even the Himera samples are a good proxy for these intermediate populations I am speaking of, who still obviously had deep ties to those Thracian samples. Why should we be surprised that a female 1400 years later from southern Albania has such a mix. Those Avar matches are her closest thus far but hard to say what their deal is considering both are females. Ton of V13 there though so perhaps that's the link.

Go ask them why they didn't test more but only gave us a female..

What other Paeonians are you seeing, are they in the room with us? Volandova samples are right there, almost Homer's era. If those aren't Paeonian, than I don't know who is. Ulanci fella probably a proto Peaonian.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

IBDs of Iron Age Cinamak

I14688 is the only R-PF7563 and has no IBD=blood ties to Illyrians. In contrast the other two Cinamak samples show clear cut relation to northern Illyrians and bronze Age Illyrians. IBD fragments are quite long and often in multiple fragments.
In MKD there are some samples from 700 BC Valandova that share some fragments with Illyrians but not in same intensity as I14692 and I14690, in either case I am still convinced the samples from around 700 BC are Illyrians invaders. They contrast from sample I10390 which is from 400 BC and likely a southern Paeonian, this sample is interesting due to lack of sharing with Illyrians but also any local network, but it has multiple fragments from various samples from EBA Serbia. Which supports what I have been telling you Paeonian's while Yamnaya derived, are quite diverged from Illyrians.

As for your delusions, step out of your isolation, Balkans did not have only Greeks and Illyrians.

We see that CTS9320 was even in Ambracia during Iron Age

It's definitely not in Ambraica read the paper again and I would not call post-classical Greece Iron Age. As for linking the Himara's to Illyrians, it shows how delusional you are, and unable to understand IBD analysis, there is zero connection to Illyrians, literally none. LMAO

 

[Southpaw]

CTS9320 is from Tenea in Peloponessus. Unfortunately the Amvrakia one was resoluted only down to E-M78 i think, i suppose he is E-V13 but he might be E-L618 negative to V13, that is a possibility as well.

As for the discussion i think it is quite repetitive, but the fact Albanian has overhelmly Eastern Vulgar Latin influences and little Western to which Illyrians were heavily and earlier exposed than anyone else is a crucial point. That is an elephant in the room, although nothing as of yet is conclusive i would say.

But the fact that Daco-Moesians/Thracian tribes on general resisted more the Roman intrusion in Balkans than Illyrian tribes speaks of itself.

 

[Southpaw]

The person behind projekti rrenjet account is dibranja?

The fb account can be shared, likely Dibran sometimes posts, but i think that Alban dude and Gjergj are kinda on charge.

 

[Fshatar]

These multiple, fairly recent MRCA connections with non-Balkan groups across various V13 clades do seem to suggest that they may represent Roman urban plebs who sought refuge in Proto-Albanian/Arbër (Southern Illyrian) territory. In contrast, the Illyrii proprie dicti trio Y-DNAs there show much deeper in-group diversity and the characteristic bottlenecks associated with the post–Roman Empire collapse.

Albanian is a Yamnaya derived language hence ANFs did not spread it