101 Ancient Eurasian Genomes Available Online

And another sample from Armenia.


21.61% Gedrosia
0.08% Siberian
0.76% Northwest_African
1.28% Southeast_Asian
9.74% Atlantic_Med
22.53% North_European
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% East_African
7.18% Southwest_Asian
0.00% East_Asian
35.02% Caucasus
1.80% Sub_Saharan



Now again back to the conclusions. What we see here is a steady increase of Red Sea like /Southwest Asian genes over time. First from 2% to 4% and now 7% Southwest Asian.
And this probably went on until we reach the 14% average nowadays found in the region.
 
Do we already know which samples are which Y-DNA haplogroups ???
 
Sintashta/Andronovo are looking just like Polish and BeloRussian. A back migration from Central Europe certainly did occur.

Sintashta RISE386 Gedmatch ID M690970

Dropbox for Ancient DNA download.

ANE K7
WHG: 68.27
ANE: 20.62
ENF: 7.46
East African: 3.23

K15
North Sea: 40.16
Atlantic: 22.94
Baltic: 12.34
East Euro: 14.68
West Asian: 7.74
Sub Saharan: 2.14
 
Tomenable said:
If that was a response to my post - in England about 30% (regional differences between various regions of England range from 10% to 40%) of autosomal DNA is from post-Ancient immigration, according to the most recent (2015) study. This is not all Anglo-Saxon, but also Danish Viking (Danelaw), Norman (those guys were ethnically mixed with local French guys by the time of coming to England), Breton (who came with the Normans in the 11th century - ironically they were to some extent descendants of earlier 4th-6th century Briton immigration from Britain to Bretagne), etc. I would not call that "insignificant" - it is at least noticeable, and a relatively large proportion.

By contrast Patrick Geary claimed that he didn't notice anything like that in Iberia, Italy, or North Africa (Vandals).
Click to expand...

You are mixing stuff. Patrick Geary's claim is from 2013, well before Iron Age Briton samples became available.

Modern Britons are much less Northern shifted than Iron Age Britons, so we must assume that the "Germanic" ancestry has actually decreased in the last 2000 years or so in the British isles.

Alan said:
And another sample from Armenia.


21.61% Gedrosia
0.08% Siberian
0.76% Northwest_African
1.28% Southeast_Asian
9.74% Atlantic_Med
22.53% North_European
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% East_African
7.18% Southwest_Asian
0.00% East_Asian
35.02% Caucasus
1.80% Sub_Saharan



Now again back to the conclusions. What we see here is a steady increase of Red Sea like /Southwest Asian genes over time. First from 2% to 4% and now 7% Southwest Asian.
And this probably went on until we reach the 14% average nowadays found in the region.
Click to expand...

Modern Armenians are not native of Armenia. They are mostly Indo Europeized Mesopotamians who were pushed North by the Arabic and Turkic expansions. Hence their hight SWA for Caucasian levels.
 
Here are the K12b results for an LBK Early European farmer from 7500 years ago or 5500 BC. This is not late Neolithic or Middle Neolithic, it's early Neolithic.

Kit F999916

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 54.92
2 Caucasus 30.3
3 Southwest_Asian 10.78
4 Northwest_African 3.79
5 North_European 0.14
6 Southeast_Asian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian (HGDP) 17.48
2 TSI30 (Metspalu) 24.05
3 Tuscan (HGDP) 24.21
4 North_Italian (HGDP) 24.41
5 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 24.7
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 24.93
7 Murcia (1000Genomes) 25.93
8 Sicilian (Dodecad) 26.56
9 Baleares (1000Genomes) 26.69
10 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 26.83

That's quite a bit more SW Asian than exists today in parts of Italy (of which some percent would be Red Sea). So, there are two possibilities in terms of the Bronze Age Armenians versus modern Armenians. Either the Bronze Age Armenians were relative newcomers to the area and picked up additional elements as they admixed with the locals by the time of the modern era, or, as Alan says, the "SW Asian" component arrived later. There's no way to know for sure until you have a genome from the Armenian Neolithic/Copper Age. Maybe the Reich lab has one for their new paper, and I think there is supposed to be a paper coming out with more ancient Armenian genomes, yes?

If SW Asian wasn't present in the Armenian Neolithic, then there was some substructure in ancient Anatolia, which shouldn't be a surprise. For the EEF, we are talking about a group (if Paschou et al are correct) that followed the Levantine coast and then took off by sea. Even if some left directly from northwest Anatolia that's still quite a ways from the Armenian highlands all the way to the east, where the population might have been slightly different. After all, both Lazaridis et al and Haak et al pointed out that all the EEF are pretty homogenous in terms of autosomal composition.
See:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.abstract

Something else also occurs to me when thinking about when the various "Indo-European" peoples might have entered Italy. The latest Remedello sample is from around 1700 BC and is still I2a and EEF. If it turns out that the "Indo-Europeans" or at least the U-152 portion (which we now know was near the northeastern Alps in the Bronze Age thanks to Allentoft et al) of them didn't come down into the peninsula until quite a bit later, perhaps around 1300 BC with Urnfield related cultures, and reached more central areas even later, is it then such a stretch to imagine that the locals around the later "Etruria" in 1000-800 BC might still have been speaking a "farmer" language? Just a thought...I don't want to derail the thread.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture
Map1000BC_Cultures01_big.jpg


Down stream U-152, (the L2) variety, might have come even later.

As for the L23 variety of R1b in Italy there are at least two possibilties: they might have entered from the south with Mycenean Greeks or with Cretans (?) or from the Balkans, forming the Apennine Culture, which was definitely "Indo-European" in nature .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apennine_culture
 
I agree with you Angela. Although Etruscans were much more Northern and Eastern shifted than Remedello farmers, so their language must have been a mixture of both Neolitich language and some other one from North of the Alps.
 
EEF surviving in Northern Italy until at 3,700YBP is surprising. I want to see that 3,700YBP North Italian's genome's ADMIXTURE results pronto, because he's the best proxy for the native-EEF-ancestors of Italians. That Remedello guy+the U152 Bell Beaker guy+something in the East Mediterranean can probably explain modern Italians. Based on ANE K8: Tuscans(only ones I've done 4mix with) are 20%+ Remedello-like and around 40%+ Bell Beaker-like(They were diverse, so I used their avg.), and the rest East Mediterranean.

Although that's a bit simplistic. The Bell Beaker we have may not be good proxies for the people who went over the Alps and brought R1b-U152 to Italy. There's was a lot of diversity in Late Neolithic/Bronze age Germany and Hungary. We have a good idea though what Remedello will score in ANE K8.

Also, ANE K8 isn't law. There are many differnt methods.
 
Rather not much. Besides, his list in that link is incomplete anyway.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
EEF surviving in Northern Italy until at 3,700YBP is surprising. I want to see that 3,700YBP North Italian's genome's ADMIXTURE results pronto, because he's the best proxy for the native-EEF-ancestors of Italians. That Remedello guy+the U152 Bell Beaker guy+something in the East Mediterranean can probably explain modern Italians. Based on ANE K8: Tuscans(only ones I've done 4mix with) are 20%+ Remedello-like and around 40%+ Bell Beaker-like(They were diverse, so I used their avg.), and the rest East Mediterranean.

Although that's a bit simplistic. The Bell Beaker we have may not be good proxies for the people who went over the Alps and brought R1b-U152 to Italy. There's was a lot of diversity in Late Neolithic/Bronze age Germany and Hungary. We have a good idea though what Remedello will score in ANE K8.

Also, ANE K8 isn't law. There are many differnt methods.
Click to expand...

I never thought any of those calculators was the law, so you're preaching to the converted. I want to see all of these genomes analyzed by the methods used in Haak et al.

As far as the "East Med" is concerned, how much "East Med" does Oetzi have? Or even Stuttgart going further back? Then we have to see how much "East Med" is in the Remedello genome. How much room does that leave for additional "East Med"?

Have you broken down the "East Med" into component parts? Is it just EEF with the additional ANE that moved into the Near East in the Bronze Age? How much is drift involved in differentiating West Med from East Med?

Also, I want to see a Mycenaean genome and one from Crete. Did the Mycenaeans come down from the Balkans, or did they sweep across coastal northern Anatolia? What about the people of Crete pre and post the secondary migrations from Anatolia? Both the Mycenaeans and the Cretans impacted Italy, mostly diffusing from the south to the north, but also moving along the coastlines straight to the north.

If you look at Tuscans on most PCA's, they just look like eastern shifted Sardinians. Tuscans are also not exactly synonymous with central Italians. They're sort of between northern Italians and central Italians like the people of Lazio, and I think that might be because of their higher levels of R1b. (And yes, I know a PCA is just one method. The real answers will come from statistical modeling in my opinion. )

Oh, almost forgot, the ancient Etruscan genomes have to be run through all these tools as well.

Then we'll see what's what even though those might only be elite genomes.

There's also this to consider...
Ralph and Coop et al, IBD flow.jpg
 
Y-I2 Remedello?
the "sardinian one": not for sure. ZI red somewhere the sardinian Y-I2a1a were maybe from N-E Iberia, possibly of Neolithic culture. if Remedello is a first introgression of I-Eans we can expect a male elite dominated culture so more eastern Y-I2: I2a1b? Y-I2a2 (ex I2b ex I2c)? I've stil this weird card in my hand : presence in N-E Russia (but Goths are challenging), presence near the Black Sea Moldavia, ancient Cucuteni-Tripolje center, spotty presence in metals ores regions, stronger in Portugal than in eastern Spain, presence in N-ireland and Scotland and Brittany and Bohemia and ... in Scandinavia apart for North-East (repopulated from South, relatively recently) it seems heavy in South-West in bronze Age / Iron colonized regions (maybe BBs and Celts - if Celts are not defnetely a 'beakerized' culture -, surely Germans. It's true the spotty distribution in mountainous regions, for the most, could also be the mark of a dominated refugied population; but Urnfields Liechtenstein people did not seem slaves...
 
Vukodav said:
I agree with you Angela. Although Etruscans were much more Northern and Eastern shifted than Remedello farmers, so their language must have been a mixture of both Neolitich language and some other one from North of the Alps.
Click to expand...

Remedello culture is from north-italy , from near Brescia in Eastern Lombardy .....................you also have Polada culture for north-italy

Villanova culture is from Etruscan lands

although Etruscan have some northern affinity they should be treated as central italians like their neighbours the ancient Umbrians.
 
MOESAN said:
Y-I2 Remedello?
the "sardinian one": not for sure. ZI red somewhere the sardinian Y-I2a1a were maybe from N-E Iberia, possibly of Neolithic culture. if Remedello is a first introgression of I-Eans we can expect a male elite dominated culture so more eastern Y-I2: I2a1b? Y-I2a2 (ex I2b ex I2c)? I've stil this weird card in my hand : presence in N-E Russia (but Goths are challenging), presence near the Black Sea Moldavia, ancient Cucuteni-Tripolje center, spotty presence in metals ores regions, stronger in Portugal than in eastern Spain, presence in N-ireland and Scotland and Brittany and Bohemia and ... in Scandinavia apart for North-East (repopulated from South, relatively recently) it seems heavy in South-West in bronze Age / Iron colonized regions (maybe BBs and Celts - if Celts are not defnetely a 'beakerized' culture -, surely Germans. It's true the spotty distribution in mountainous regions, for the most, could also be the mark of a dominated refugied population; but Urnfields Liechtenstein people did not seem slaves...
Click to expand...

If the early reports are correct, all three of them are indistinguishable from early Neolithic farmers autosomally.
 
I rather skipped over this part of the text in Allentoft's Supplementary Info in my first go round:

"Despite the general Yamnaya expansion stalling at Ural, some groups must have been looking for more distant grazing grounds, because in the eastern steppe of Western Siberia we find an outlier culture that seems related to early Yamnaya. The archaeological explanations for this phenomenon diverge: traditionally it has been considered the result of a remarkable, long distance migration that took place at an early stage of the pre-Yamnaya (known as the Repin culture) of the western steppe. A two-thousand kilometer trek across the central steppe to the Altai mountains, rich in good grazing and suited to transhumance. The settlers introduced a fully developed kurgan/barrow culture and the pastoral economy known from the western steppe. This migratory route, with a few stations along the way, was maintained and used and later Yamnaya groups continued to use it. This phenomenon led to the formation of the Afanasievo culture near the Altai. An alternative explanation links Afanasievo to the southwest, linking Afanasievo to the southwest, being part of the Inner Asian Corridor from Pamir to Altai-and a southwest Asian/Near Eastern source of pastoralism.It has been proposed that groups from the Afanasievo Culture migrated south to Xinjang and the Tarim basin, bringing with them the Tocharian language, the second oldest to break off from Proto-Indo European, with a western Europan origin, while others would see this being part of the above mentioned interaction zone with the southwest Pamir and Hindu Kush. The later Okunevo Culture was a local south Siberian Early Bronze Age adaptation of Afanasievo influences, and is characterized by stone stelae with expressive art of a shamanistic nature. "

Perhaps some of the particularities of the Afansievo genomes can be better explained by looking at the migration path using the Inner Asian Corridor. It would tie things up nicely if they found some R1b there.

I think Frachetti's analysis deserves another read...it makes sense to me in terms of the chronology and archaeology.

https://www.academia.edu/6106267/Fr...capes_along_the_Inner_Asian_Mountain_Corridor

http://royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royprsb/281/1783/20133382.full.pdf

steppe.jpg
 
MOESAN said:
Y-I2 Remedello?
the "sardinian one": not for sure. ZI red somewhere the sardinian Y-I2a1a were maybe from N-E Iberia, possibly of Neolithic culture. if Remedello is a first introgression of I-Eans we can expect a male elite dominated culture so more eastern Y-I2: I2a1b? Y-I2a2 (ex I2b ex I2c)?
Click to expand...

I'd like more data than Genitiker's calls as well, but I don't think that it's a stretch to say that he's probably right about this one. "Sardinian" I2-M26 is indeed called "Sardinian" due to modern frequency and no other reason. We know from other ancient samples, including several Neolithic samples from France, that it was many places in Europe by Remedello. Remedello is easily within range (and Neolithic looking, as Angela points out), and the I2-M26 there could be either native or brought in. I2-M26 is old and widespread enough that either hypothesis works fine. I2a1b, on the other hand, has a northern (even more so than eastern) geographical bias that would make it a bit more surprising in Italy. I2-M223, although less known in ancient samples, seems to be similar to I2a1b, if a little more central.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
EEF surviving in Northern Italy until at 3,700YBP is surprising. I want to see that 3,700YBP North Italian's genome's ADMIXTURE results pronto, because he's the best proxy for the native-EEF-ancestors of Italians. That Remedello guy+the U152 Bell Beaker guy+something in the East Mediterranean can probably explain modern Italians. Based on ANE K8: Tuscans(only ones I've done 4mix with) are 20%+ Remedello-like and around 40%+ Bell Beaker-like(They were diverse, so I used their avg.), and the rest East Mediterranean.

Although that's a bit simplistic. The Bell Beaker we have may not be good proxies for the people who went over the Alps and brought R1b-U152 to Italy. There's was a lot of diversity in Late Neolithic/Bronze age Germany and Hungary. We have a good idea though what Remedello will score in ANE K8.

Also, ANE K8 isn't law. There are many differnt methods.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the Eurogenes Yamnaya K6 run? If yes, then I don't know how much reliable is it. Sardinians get 25% of recent Middle Eastern admixture compared to early Neolitich farmers.

Tuscans look fairly close to Bronze Age Montenegrins. Of course more samples from Italy and the Balkans are needed.
 
Angela said:
If the early reports are correct, all three of them are indistinguishable from early Neolithic farmers autosomally.
Click to expand...

OK - I was just waking up an old dream of mine, for the game - that said, "indistinguishable autosomally" in a very strong word for a not too precise tool of knowledge: I remember the 'block' of Gokhem, Stuttgart and other Neolithic people wihch showed later some trends towards different directions, avowing so some little differences in admixture - male elite mediated hold on land can leave evaporate quickly enough its intruding aDNA according to the weight of the successfull newcomers -
but here I have no certitude nor theory: only remarks - where found you the aDNA reports for the matter? thanks beforehand
 
there is some imprecistion in all these statements, every scientist using his own vocabulary, what is confusing where comparing several surveys - it's my opinion.
from the metrics surveys it appears, left some scholars contradictions aside, that a lot od the populations studied in this large region in this span of time were crossings, without too extreme types nor within homogeneity. Even in the SAME culture, there were differences according to places (Kalmykia very apart from Samara for Pit Grave, and apart from Maykop and Armenia;
some of the studies concluded the Dniestr culture was the place of the most 'cromagnoid' people, maybe got down from Baltic or East Baltic region; nevertheless they were neighbors and even part of the Cucuteni-Tripolje territory, and send people to the Carpathian Bassin more than a time later. the Kalmykia Pit Grave showed some links with the Dniestr people but were different (my guess: something more 'dinaroid', some southern influence upon 'borrebyied cromagnoids'?) - the Sredny Stog and the first Khvalinsk people seems halfway between Maykop/Armenia, Dniestr and the ancient "Mesolithic" people (mesolithic: I try to devine: more 'brünnoid'?)- the Khvalinsk 2 , mixed too, seemed closer to ancient forms, 'cromagnoid' Neolithicized people (see above) and more Mesolithic people ... I want not go further on on this way because scientists are bit too secret for me, but you can see the reality is far from to be simple and "pure"; just: the second easternwards into far Asia wave would have been more on the Khvalisnk 2 side (more archaic).
concerning DNA, what is sure is that into Eurogenes K15 in ancient DNA of Corded, Yamnaya Samara the 'west-asian' is not accompanied by 'red sea', nor 'east-mediter' nor 'west-mediter' showing only a litlle 'southasian': so if I try to understand this PART of 'westasian' - a modern people based component, remember - I have: 2 theoric possibilities: ANCIENT Armenians inherited some DNA from North the Caucasus at Bronze Ages or around, OR inherited it from Southeast the Caspian (proto-Hurrians?) before pass it to North Caucasus, what could please to supporters of "Anatolian I-Ean" and Uruk-Araxes ancestry for Maykop; I avow I have some difficulty to admit these "Armenians" even ancient would not have picked with them some ancient Neolithic southern people rich in 'mediter' and surely in some part in 'red sea'...
no conclusion here only a try tu disintangle this question concerning a region which has been a "boulevard" as the Donaw-Danube.
 
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