101 Ancient Eurasian Genomes Available Online

@Angela

I found a comment which might explain why the Allenloft conclusions and methods are slightly off.


I find it strange that they didn't include published EHG genomes in their dataset. Instead they use MA-1 to calculate f3 stats for Yamnaya and then they wonder that the admixture signal for Armenian-like admixture is so weak...
Click to expand...

The paper was sent to Nature on 14 February 2015, before Haak published genomes, so they apparently couldn't compare them at that time.
Click to expand...


So the analyses might have started before Haak published the EHG results.
 
epoch said:
The reason this is done is that we get to verify theories, not to check out who contributed the most. And the very fact that there actually is a window to the past is wildly exciting. But to keep a clear head one needs to rid oneself of *all* believes and ideologies concerning this.

The concept of Indo-European languages coming from migrations from the area proposed by both this paper and Haaks paper is far from new. Linguists have proposed it for decades, for completely different reasons. Archeologists from before the war have proposed it. Only after the war the doubt set in, partly because of backlash against fascist identifying with Aryans. Now we have reasonable evidence this doubt was wrong.
Click to expand...

Is accurately deciphering the direction of flow of cultural innovations "checking out who contributed the most"? I thought it was called intellectual analysis.

I didn't know we are supposed to have teams. Epoch, "It's not personal, it's just business.":grin:

Well, that's not quite accurate. I am keeping score, although I keep the tallies to myself. I am keeping score of how often I've been right (and wrong), so I guess to that extent it's personal. Very egotistical, I know, but there you have it.
smile.gif
 
epoch said:
Please note that that is just as much an agenda as the nationalistic ones that are scolded here so much. It blurs the view just as much, in similar ways.
Click to expand...
That is not an agenda. That is a fact, that when you get together many different ideas and cultures you combine and produce something better (or one kills the other :D). Sitting there on one place alone among same like you people doing your own business does not teach you much.
This is why internet today is so big thing. This is why horses back then was so big thing. Connecting people.
 
Alan said:
@Angela

I found a comment which might explain why the Allenloft conclusions and methods are slightly off.







So the analyses might have started before Haak published the EHG results.
Click to expand...

That might be it. It just made no sense to me to be using Mal'ta to model people who lived tens of thousands of years later, and to be so dogmatic when they don't have a Maykop sample, much less an early near eastern farmer.

Rushing to get into print isn't helpful.

Have you seen these?

[FONT=&quot]RISE416.txt[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dodecad K12b[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 12 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 166770 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 523 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 163733 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.018211 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]163733 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23.69% Gedrosia [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Siberian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Northwest_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Southeast_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 33.20% Atlantic_Med [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 19.53% North_European [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% South_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Southwest_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23.57% Caucasus [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Sub_Saharan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eurogenes K7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 229157 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 18 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 225068 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.017844 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]225068 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 11.03% ANE [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% ASE [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 44.71% WHG-UHG [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_Eurasian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2.64% West_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 41.61% ENF [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eurogenes Steppe K10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 10 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 101647 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 99765 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.018515 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 99765 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 33.27% Near_Eastern [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Siberian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Oceanian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 25.74% WHG-UHG [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1.64% Sub-Saharan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 25.85% Hindu_Kush [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 13.51% Steppe [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Amerindian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Southeast_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]HarappaWorld[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 16 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 188173 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 184719 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.018355 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]184719 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% S-Indian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 22.02% Baloch [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 29.76% Caucasian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 20.04% NE-Euro [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% SE-Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Siberian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% NE-Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Papuan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% American [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Beringian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 26.41% Mediterranean [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% SW-Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% San [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% E-African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Pygmy [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1.77% W-African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]RISE416.txt[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dodecad K12b[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 12 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 166770 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 523 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 163733 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.018211 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]163733 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23.69% Gedrosia [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Siberian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Northwest_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Southeast_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 33.20% Atlantic_Med [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 19.53% North_European [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% South_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Southwest_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 23.57% Caucasus [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Sub_Saharan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eurogenes K7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 7 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 229157 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 18 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 225068 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.017844 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]225068 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 11.03% ANE [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% ASE [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 44.71% WHG-UHG [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_Eurasian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 2.64% West_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 41.61% ENF [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eurogenes Steppe K10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 10 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 101647 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 99765 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.018515 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 99765 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 33.27% Near_Eastern [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% East_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Siberian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Oceanian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 25.74% WHG-UHG [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1.64% Sub-Saharan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 25.85% Hindu_Kush [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 13.51% Steppe [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Amerindian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Southeast_Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]HarappaWorld[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 16 ancestral populations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 188173 total SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 flipped SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1 heterozygous SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0 no-calls[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 184719 absent SNPs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.018355 genotype rate[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] mode genomewide[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]184719 SNPs missing (no-call or absent)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] ----------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% S-Indian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 22.02% Baloch [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 29.76% Caucasian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 20.04% NE-Euro [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% SE-Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Siberian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% NE-Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Papuan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% American [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Beringian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 26.41% Mediterranean [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% SW-Asian [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% San [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% E-African [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 0.00% Pygmy [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 1.77% W-African [/FONT]
 
Ok, so Genetiker has that I2 sample from Italy (RISE486) as I2-M26>L672, which is the Sardinian subclade, unsurprisingly.
 
@Angela the results of which sample is that?

I see it is BaArmenia

Interesting 20% of North European? Nowadays not more than 10% and among Armenians even 4$%.

I think I know what happened as I was saying the Semite (Assyrian) expansion probably happened.

And these results don't really look "identical" to modern Armenians and neither to other populations in the region.
 
Angela said:
Indeed, if Willerslev is right, and all of the genetic elements of Yamnaya were around in northern Eurasia since Malta (if I'm interpreting him correctly) then the main contribution of the "southern" regions was all the cultural hallmarks of advanced civilization. As I've said before and as the authors here seem to state, the only contribution of the steppe peoples was the domestication of the horse.

To be fair, of course, innovations were made after that.
Click to expand...

This is the most likely mechanism. Whether or not most of the farming lexicon and technology came via CT or through the Caucasus could be debated, but metallurgy seems firmly grounded in the Caucasus.
 
bicicleur said:
4300-3800 BC lifestyle in Balkans changed completely, population became less dense and shifted from agriculture to husbandry ; hilltop settlements appeared, as well as steppe cultural elements
there are indications climate had shifted, which struck agriculture ; but this climate shift could also have triggered migration from the steppe
I admit the picture is not clear.
Anatolian is estimated 6000 years old, but the only recorded writings are less then 4000 years old. What happened in between is not sure.
You cllaim Anatolian branch rather arrived through the (North?)East. Do you have any proof?
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
A post the user "Sein" made on Anthrogenica

For what it's worth, using formal modelling (based on f-4 stats), modern Indo-Iranians have very substantial levels of Yamnaya-related ancestry.

There is a tendency to look at ADMIXTURE output in these cases, but I think that leads us nowhere. Looking at Chad's ADMIXTURE experiments, that software is very sensitive to slight population/component additions. Drift wrecks havoc with the clusters. At the end of the day, interpreting the output tends to involve a lot of unsubstantiated speculation. Most importantly, there is just no real mechanism for deciding whether the output reflects reality or not.

By contrast, the f4-stat based modelling used in Haak et al. is very robust to things like drift, and doesn't need the "tinkering" involved in ADMIXTURE. Most importantly, the output can be judged on a statistical basis, and is construable as robust, weak, or even as a failure ("infeasible").

I requested David to model the Pashtun and Kalash samples from the HGDP data-set, using the method utilized in Haak et al. (only 10 Pashtun samples, the ones that cluster tightly together, and show some distance to Sindhis and Punjabi Jatts on PCA plots). As always, he was very generous with his time, and was kind enough to try to fit Pashtuns and Kalash as Starcevo_EN + Yamnaya + Dai. The results:

Pashtun
46.7% Yamnaya + 44.1% Starcevo_EN + 9.2% Dai

chisq=0.435

tail probability=0.80468

Kalash
50.1% Yamnaya + 40.1% Starcevo_EN + 9.8% Dai

chisq=0.845

tail probability=0.655534

As you can see, the largest component of Pashtun and Kalash ancestry is Yamnaya. But one also needs to look at the chisq and tail probs. In this case, what we are seeing is exceedingly good. The Pashtun fit has an exceptionally low chisq, and the lower the chisq, the better. It is very hard to get such a good fit. Also, the tail prob is quite high, which is also very good. Interestingly, Pashtuns and Kalash are better modeled as Yamnaya + European Neolithic than most Europeans! This is of considerable importance.

For comparison, David has previously modeled Assyrians as 2% Yamnaya, Armenians as 11% Yamnaya, and Georgians as 22% Yamnaya. Everest was able to model Iranians as 33% Yamnaya. So, the software is showing us a cline that makes a lot of sense. It has Assyrians at only 2%, and then has the Kalash (at the other extreme) at 50%, with Iranians in the middle (but closer to Kalash levels). This is what we would expect, based on linguistics, history, and geography.

Even though I just bashed ADMIXTURE, it is worth noting that Chad's runs consistently had the Yamnaya hijack all the West Eurasian ancestry in peninsular South Asia. They always acted as an "ANI" component for Indians. Surely that gives us some hints, from an ADMIXTURE-based view on things.

Basically, modern Indo-Iranians have very high levels of ancestry from the Indo-European steppe. As is noted in this new paper:

"A genetic link between the Kalash and the steppe through Yamnaya-related people." (Supplementary Information, page 38)

But, it seems that this ancestry didn't come from Sintashta/Andronovo, as those samples look more like the Indo-European ancestors of Europeans than the Indo-European ancestors of West and South/Central Asians. This is all very unexpected, and counter-intuitive. It seems to fly in the face of geography, but we've learned to expect the unexpected whenever it comes to aDNA.

I don't know what to make of the fact that Yamnaya are better proxies for steppe Indo-European ancestry in Asia, rather than Sintashta/Andronovo? Who knows, perhaps the Caucasus route for Indo-Iranian dispersal makes more sense? Also, we don't have autosomal aDNA from people like the Scythians, who might be the direct ancestors of living South Central Asians like Pashtuns. Perhaps they were much more Yamnaya-like, or maybe even closer than Yamnaya are to living South Central Asians? I wouldn't be surprised.

For what it's worth, Afanasievo are almost identical to Yamnaya.
Click to expand...

It only remains one thing to say.

"Ancient DNA"
58458067.jpg
 
Another interesting comment.

The title of Haak et al. (2015) writes of the steppe as “a source for Indo-European languages in Europe” [emphasis added], and the abstract claims “These results provide support for the theory of a steppe origin of at least some of the Indo‐European languages of Europe.” But this is not the established Steppe theory for Indo-European, which is instead that the steppe is the origin of all Indo-European languages, and not just of Europe, but everywhere else too: Iran, India, (formerly) Anatolia, and so on. So if the steppe is the source of only some of the Indo-European languages of Europe, then that contradicts the steppe hypothesis.

Allentoft et al. (2015), likewise, make statements such as “Our genomic evidence for the spread of Yamnaya people from the Pontic-Caspian steppe to both northern Europe and Central Asia (Fig. 1) corresponds well with the hypothesized expansion of the Indo-European languages”, when it does not. Northern Europe and Central Asia fit only with a subset of those languages, which is not the Steppe hypothesis. Their title is “Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia”, but it too only really addresses northern Eurasia.

Mediterranean Europe, and Asia south of the Black Sea, Caspian and Himalayas, are core areas of Indo-European speech, the large majority of the family, and crucial to answering the Indo-European question. Neither paper does justice to these areas, and neither reports any significant new genetic data for them for the appropriate time-periods.
Click to expand...

http://dlc.hypotheses.org/807
 
bicicleur said:
unsurprising to find it in Italy at that time, maybe
but not in a Remedello context
Click to expand...

The conclusion is that I2 is in sardinian, northern-italy, "illyria" and Pannonia ( hungary ) was in majority I2 and this got diluted over time my other migrating younger haplogroups ( not all areas though )
 
The 20% North European in the BaArmenian is mostly WHG. Thats the weird part. The sample has like 10% ANE and 25% WHG. more than 5 times as much WHG as modern populations in the same region.

Thats an indication that proto farmers might had already significant percentage of WHG.

Also the ENF is Atlantic_Med/Caucasus which points that this can't have come from the Steppes, because those "lacked" Atlantic_Med and had low Caucasus.

It seems to be the remnant of early farmers.

As said quite often. It really seems when the Afro_Asiatic speakers/Semites expanded (Assyrians in the case of Mesopotamia and TransCaucasus), they significantly changed the genetic make up of the region, by bringing a Red Sea like component from the Proto Afro_Asiatic homeland around Egypt.


Just look at it, there is no Southwest Asian component among the Bronze Age Armenian sample. We also heard that during late Neolithic a slow genetic replacement happened in Anatolia. This component which is nowadays common in the Middle East and North Africa must be the Red Sea component. The Semites logically reached Anatolia earlier as the Transcaucasus.

This new Red Sea component reached Europe probably with continues waves of farmers during Late Neolithic. Since we know some Neolithic European farmers also had some Red Sea component but in much smaller percentage.

The Bronze Age sample appears like 70% EEF and ~30% WHG/ANE.
 
Last edited:
Sile said:
The conclusion is that I2 is in sardinian, northern-italy, "illyria" and Pannonia ( hungary ) was in majority I2 and this got diluted over time my other migrating younger haplogroups ( not all areas though )
Click to expand...

That still doesn't match the modern Sardinian phylogeny, though. Modern Sardinian I2-M26 has less diversity than most other haplogroups in Sardinia. Now, we'll need to get the timing right to see if we're looking at a possible relative to the source population of a later expansion of I2-M26 in Sardinia, or what.
 
Angela,

You're confused about the ADMIXTURE from Allentoft 2015, because you're not interpreting it the right way. The authors did not create each K-test. They let the modern samples create components. They then got scores in these components for the ancient samples.

EEF scoring 50% in a Bedouin-centered component, doesn't mean the authors think Bedouin are a good proxy for early farmers. At a low K, all Euro_HG is going to be in the same modern component. This is why Yamnaya appears to be high in "WHG" in some tests. A component that is most popular in a certain people isn't their component.
 
Alan said:
The 20% North European in the BaArmenian is mostly WHG. Thats the weird part. The sample has like 10% ANE and 25% WHG. more than 5 times as much WHG as modern populations in the same region.

Thats an indication that proto farmers might had already significant percentage of WHG.
Click to expand...
Till Red sea deluge from Mediterranean Sea, there was an easy passage form Europe to Asia. I was expecting that WHG might have ventured to Anatolia. This could have been the first place Farmers met WHG. Or possibly WHG trickled down to Fertile Crescent pre Neolithic?


As said quite often. It really seems when the Afro_Asiatic speakers/Semites expanded (Assyrians in the case of Mesopotamia and TransCaucasus), they significantly changed the genetic make up of the region, by bringing a Red Sea like component from the Proto Afro_Asiatic homeland around Egypt.
Click to expand...
It seems very likely now.

Just look at it, there is no Southwest Asian component among the Bronze Age Armenian sample. We also heard that during late Neolithic a slow genetic replacement happened in Anatolia. This component which is nowadays common in the Middle East and North Africa must be the Red Sea component. The Semites logically reached Anatolia earlier as the Transcaucasus.
Click to expand...
What do you think, J1 and J2 folks? I'd say first wave was J2 around bronze age/late neolithic, J1 was later (Iron?).
 
LeBrok said:
What do you think, J1 and J2 folks? I'd say first wave was J2 around bronze age/late neolithic, J1 was later (Iron?).
Click to expand...

I have been saying this for very long and now many people start to realize it and agree. I thinK Haplogroup J expanded from the Iranian Plateau (Zagros mountains) as herder Haplogroup as a mixture of EEF and ANE what is basically "Caucasus_Gedrosia. J2 migrated in all directions while J1 less into North and more towards South and West(Levant, Arabia and some Europe).


Till Red sea deluge from Mediterranean Sea, there was an easy passage form Europe to Asia. I was expecting that WHG might have ventured to Anatolia. This could have been the first place Farmers met WHG. Or possibly WHG trickled down to Fertile Crescent pre Neolithic?
Click to expand...

Or more likely imo, WHG existed in Western Asia already in a more basal form (UHG) part of it mixed with Basal Eurasian becoming farmers. While another part stayed H&G.
This new farmer component expanded into every direction such as North Africa. In Northeast Africa it most likely absorbed some Sub Saharan genes, EEF and WHG became slightly deluted and a Red Sea component.
was born. Those Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers were predominantly (70-75%) Early farmer, 10% WHG with 15-20% SSA admixture.
 
Last edited:
Alan said:
A post the user "Sein" made on Anthrogenica



It only remains one thing to say.

"Ancient DNA"
58458067.jpg
Click to expand...

What he said. :)

As for Professor Heggarty's article, I think he's being a little unfair to the Haak authors. Allentoft may be making a claim about all the Indo-European languages, but Haak is very circumspect. It looks as if Heggarty is just going by the abstract and a few statements in the paper rather than by the section in the supplement that discusses the Indo-European languages. I do think he may have a point about the fact that many of the people moving into northeast Europe might not necessarily have been Indo-European speakers, and he's right that it's really not clear how and when the languages other than Balto-Slavic spread. Saying that they spread during the Neolithic is something else again.
 
Alan said:
The 20% North European in the BaArmenian is mostly WHG. Thats the weird part. The sample has like 10% ANE and 25% WHG. more than 5 times as much WHG as modern populations in the same region.

Thats an indication that proto farmers might had already significant percentage of WHG.

Also the ENF is Atlantic_Med/Caucasus which points that this can't have come from the Steppes, because those "lacked" Atlantic_Med and had low Caucasus.

It seems to be the remnant of early farmers.

As said quite often. It really seems when the Afro_Asiatic speakers/Semites expanded (Assyrians in the case of Mesopotamia and TransCaucasus), they significantly changed the genetic make up of the region, by bringing a Red Sea like component from the Proto Afro_Asiatic homeland around Egypt.


Just look at it, there is no Southwest Asian component among the Bronze Age Armenian sample. We also heard that during late Neolithic a slow genetic replacement happened in Anatolia. This component which is nowadays common in the Middle East and North Africa must be the Red Sea component. The Semites logically reached Anatolia earlier as the Transcaucasus.

This new Red Sea component reached Europe probably with continues waves of farmers during Late Neolithic. Since we know some Neolithic European farmers also had some Red Sea component but in much smaller percentage.

The Bronze Age sample appears like 70% EEF and ~30% WHG/ANE.
Click to expand...

Alan, the SW Asian was already in Europe in the early Neolithic, so presumably it was in the border region between south east Anatolia and the Levant coast near Syria even earlier. Whether it was initially in the Armenian highlands is another issue.

I also don't think those ANE7 numbers are gospel. I was glad to see that someone on Anthrogenica is pointing out what seemed pretty clear to me, which is that the WHG/UHG component "eats up" some of the ENF.

I'm going to put off making any judgments about many of these things until we have analyzed genomes from Maykop, Central Asia, and from an early Near Eastern farmer as well, and I want to see conclusions using the best statistical methods, not relying totally on ADMIXTURE.
 
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